ballaholic#3 wrote:Looking at the last 2 proposals. The private schools are still in the lowest level. You'll continue to have at least 4 regions dominated by privates. The middle class.has even more disparity with Devils Lake, Wahpeton, and Shanley playing Harvey/Wells-County on a Tuesday night. You'll have two classes with issues.
Flip wrote:maybe I just choose not remember that stuff...I seriously don't remember any though.
edit: WFS coach came off really bad IMO. I didn't think he presented himself well. His numbers are always way off base too.
edit 2: Dan Carr didn't like a 3 class system either.
balla45 wrote:I think it would be cool to leave Class A as is, with the removal of the teams that are not competitive.
Make Class B like the NCAA tournament. The Elite 8 go to the actual event, but seed the top 64-68 teams and play it out. It won’t happen, but I would rather watch a tournament with the 8 teams playing the best basketball as compared to the best team from each region.
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Oak Grove may struggle to start the year with tough games, mostly on the road, on the schedule vs. Hawley (MN), Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Hillsboro-Central Valley, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity & Aberdeen Roncalli (SD) in their first 8 games (and Perham (MN) later in the year) but it will prepare them for the region games.
Flip wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:Oak Grove may struggle to start the year with tough games, mostly on the road, on the schedule vs. Hawley (MN), Four Winds-Minnewaukan, Hillsboro-Central Valley, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity & Aberdeen Roncalli (SD) in their first 8 games (and Perham (MN) later in the year) but it will prepare them for the region games.
and I'm supposed to believe Oak Grove wouldn't opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system?
Run4Fun2009 wrote:Who says that?
Flip wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:Who says that?
Many posters. They are anti 3 classes if the private schools are put in the smallest class. I say go with 3 classes and allow teams to opt up. You will see OG, DT, SC, and BR opt IMO. Their scheduling shows who they want to play.
classB4ever wrote:balla45 wrote:I think it would be cool to leave Class A as is, with the removal of the teams that are not competitive.
Make Class B like the NCAA tournament. The Elite 8 go to the actual event, but seed the top 64-68 teams and play it out. It won’t happen, but I would rather watch a tournament with the 8 teams playing the best basketball as compared to the best team from each region.
With all due respect, I think you are being hypocritical. You say leave Class A alone, BUT remove non competitive teams. You suggest to forget about regions in Class B basketball but I assume you would keep east and west regions in Class A? I would not eliminate the regions for the sake of play during the regular season, but i would eliminate the regional tournaments and do an NCAA and NIT, for example. Let me ask, how many teams do you want to cut from Class A? Watford City and Valley City are gone for sure. Potentially others. When it gets down to say 10 teams to make it competitive for all A teams, do you still keep east and west regions? Send 8 to the state tournament? What is the reasoning for cutting non competitive teams? Is it because upper echelon Class A schools shouldn't have to travel to those schools? Is it a waste of their time to play lesser competition? Yes.
Basically you are suggesting to reduce the number of teams in Class A to make it more competitive night in and night out with "like" teams and on the flip side, increase the number of teams in Class B to make it more lopsided from top to bottom which will increase blow outs. Valley City was not a power house the last time that they were in Class B. Four Winds typically beats Turtle Mountain. Watford City has not been great in Class B by any means. I am fine with 3 classes. I would like to see the teams that are not competitive in Class A moved out of it.
Not so long ago ('90's), Class A basketball was a dog from top to bottom. 35-30 games were more of the norm than outlier. The shot clock saved Class A basketball IMHO. Since then it has blossomed. I too agree Class A should be left alone because I think they have a nice brand of basketball now. However, don't throw the rest of the state under the bus because the 18 biggest schools in the state have a good thing going currently. I do not think it is beneficial for Class A to have Watford City, Valley City, and Grand Forks Central in it.
I assume you want to get rid of the non competitive teams because you feel Class A schools should have a competitive game every night they step on the court. Yes. I find blowouts fairly boring to watch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what this discussion is about? Having competitive basketball games for everyone in the state during regular season. I would be fine with 3 classes. I know that I have zero desire to watch Watford City boys and girls lose to Century boys and girls by 60 this year. As for tournament time, I believe what has been proposed up thread would be a huge success. It would also address what you suggested in that some of the lower enrollment teams would move from Class A to the middle class. Seems to solve a lot of problems vs. the recent 3 class proposal which solved none. I think seeding Class B would be cool. It is impractical, but I think it would be fun to watch.
Incorporating mercy rules does not solve any problems other than robbing kids of playing time and sending fans and refs home early. Mercy rules actually point out that there indeed are problems. I agree. That we need a mercy rule shows that there is a lack of competitive balance. There are things which can be done to bring back competitive basketball from top to bottom and in turn will lead to increased participation. Having quality basketball games doesn't mean you have to have the best basketball players in the state playing. It means like teams are competing against one another, learning and having fun. That can be done at the highest and lowest levels in ND. That's what this should be all about. The tournaments at the end of the year will benefit and the best teams and players will then be recognized. 2 cents. This is why I would rather see a true, best of the best tournament, instead of best of region tournament. An example would be how talented Thompson boys have been the past few seasons and almost no one has seen it because HCV has been a title team as well.
balla45 wrote:classB4ever wrote:balla45 wrote:I think it would be cool to leave Class A as is, with the removal of the teams that are not competitive.
Make Class B like the NCAA tournament. The Elite 8 go to the actual event, but seed the top 64-68 teams and play it out. It won’t happen, but I would rather watch a tournament with the 8 teams playing the best basketball as compared to the best team from each region.
With all due respect, I think you are being hypocritical. You say leave Class A alone, BUT remove non competitive teams. You suggest to forget about regions in Class B basketball but I assume you would keep east and west regions in Class A? I would not eliminate the regions for the sake of play during the regular season, but i would eliminate the regional tournaments and do an NCAA and NIT, for example. Let me ask, how many teams do you want to cut from Class A? Watford City and Valley City are gone for sure. Potentially others. When it gets down to say 10 teams to make it competitive for all A teams, do you still keep east and west regions? Send 8 to the state tournament? What is the reasoning for cutting non competitive teams? Is it because upper echelon Class A schools shouldn't have to travel to those schools? Is it a waste of their time to play lesser competition? Yes.
Basically you are suggesting to reduce the number of teams in Class A to make it more competitive night in and night out with "like" teams and on the flip side, increase the number of teams in Class B to make it more lopsided from top to bottom which will increase blow outs. Valley City was not a power house the last time that they were in Class B. Four Winds typically beats Turtle Mountain. Watford City has not been great in Class B by any means. I am fine with 3 classes. I would like to see the teams that are not competitive in Class A moved out of it.
Not so long ago ('90's), Class A basketball was a dog from top to bottom. 35-30 games were more of the norm than outlier. The shot clock saved Class A basketball IMHO. Since then it has blossomed. I too agree Class A should be left alone because I think they have a nice brand of basketball now. However, don't throw the rest of the state under the bus because the 18 biggest schools in the state have a good thing going currently. I do not think it is beneficial for Class A to have Watford City, Valley City, and Grand Forks Central in it.
I assume you want to get rid of the non competitive teams because you feel Class A schools should have a competitive game every night they step on the court. Yes. I find blowouts fairly boring to watch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what this discussion is about? Having competitive basketball games for everyone in the state during regular season. I would be fine with 3 classes. I know that I have zero desire to watch Watford City boys and girls lose to Century boys and girls by 60 this year. As for tournament time, I believe what has been proposed up thread would be a huge success. It would also address what you suggested in that some of the lower enrollment teams would move from Class A to the middle class. Seems to solve a lot of problems vs. the recent 3 class proposal which solved none. I think seeding Class B would be cool. It is impractical, but I think it would be fun to watch.
Incorporating mercy rules does not solve any problems other than robbing kids of playing time and sending fans and refs home early. Mercy rules actually point out that there indeed are problems. I agree. That we need a mercy rule shows that there is a lack of competitive balance. There are things which can be done to bring back competitive basketball from top to bottom and in turn will lead to increased participation. Having quality basketball games doesn't mean you have to have the best basketball players in the state playing. It means like teams are competing against one another, learning and having fun. That can be done at the highest and lowest levels in ND. That's what this should be all about. The tournaments at the end of the year will benefit and the best teams and players will then be recognized. 2 cents. This is why I would rather see a true, best of the best tournament, instead of best of region tournament. An example would be how talented Thompson boys have been the past few seasons and almost no one has seen it because HCV has been a title team as well.
I do not think 3 classes will happen soon, and i think it would be cool to have the legitimate 64-68 best teams all in contention. Last year in Class B GBB, 3 of the probably 5 or 6 best teams were all in 1 region.
balla45 wrote:
I do not think 3 classes will happen soon, and i think it would be cool to have the legitimate 64-68 best teams all in contention. Last year in Class B GBB, 3 of the probably 5 or 6 best teams were all in 1 region.
B Historian wrote:I'm not surprised that this plan is being dumped. It was a self-serving attempt by two administrators to give their respective schools an advantage by putting them near the top of their respective classes from an enrollment standpoint.
I have written this before but will write it again: The problem with implementing a three class system in ND is that there aren't enough mid-size schools! Setting the enrollment cutoff at 150 between the bottom two classes leaves 20-22 schools in the middle division which isn't feasible. You cannot have these schools making 300 mile round trips on a Tuesday night in January for boys and girls basketball games.
The only way for a three class system to work is to have the cutoff between the bottom two classes set at 120. This would put about 40 teams in the middle class which is a workable number for in season travel, tournament logistics etc. The problem though is that those schools with enrollments between 120 and 150 would then be at a bigger disadvantage than they are currently. There is no easy answer.
Flip wrote:B Historian wrote:I'm not surprised that this plan is being dumped. It was a self-serving attempt by two administrators to give their respective schools an advantage by putting them near the top of their respective classes from an enrollment standpoint.
I have written this before but will write it again: The problem with implementing a three class system in ND is that there aren't enough mid-size schools! Setting the enrollment cutoff at 150 between the bottom two classes leaves 20-22 schools in the middle division which isn't feasible. You cannot have these schools making 300 mile round trips on a Tuesday night in January for boys and girls basketball games.
The only way for a three class system to work is to have the cutoff between the bottom two classes set at 120. This would put about 40 teams in the middle class which is a workable number for in season travel, tournament logistics etc. The problem though is that those schools with enrollments between 120 and 150 would then be at a bigger disadvantage than they are currently. There is no easy answer.
It has already been mentioned in this thread, but have a system where you don't need to play everyone in our district/region. Seed your district/region by QRF. If you want to play a team in your region that is 150 miles away schedule it for a Friday night or Saturday afternoon.
B Historian wrote:The QRF is fine, but each school still needs 21 regular season games. If there are only 11 teams in each region in Class A and a school doesn't play all of them then how do you get to 21 games?
Rely on Class B opponents?
The small schools will have plenty of local competition in their own class.
Plus, cross class competition has always been limited in ND.
At minimum there has to be 32 schools in the middle class for this to work. 38-40 would be more preferable.
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