Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

The teams in Class A

Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:52 pm

UNDSiouxfan wrote:Thanks for doing this Schwab. Every AD in the state needs to see this. You are the type of person who the NDHSAA needs on their Board because you can think out of the box.

Just to be a devil's advocate, I don't believe Des Lacs Burlington belongs in AA. I realize not everyone would be happy in any plan, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Shanley would definitely have to stay in AAA, and I feel either Bismarck St. Mary's or Jamestown should also opt up to make AAA an even 16 teams. I'd vote Bismarck out of these 2, they would compete at the AAA level at a sustained level more than Jamestown would. Horace being in AA for a few years is great, but it's only a matter of time till they go to AAA as it's the fastest growing suburb in the state.

More importantly - For A and 9 man teams, I have never seen a better proposal. A plan like this for both football and basketball is what the state of ND needs. Times have changed and it's time to get things right. Fairness/Common Sense/keeping the metros in AAA - this nails it.


Thank you very much for that.

I also felt that way about DLB, but in my plan they are very close to not having a multiplier if their FR% would go up a couple of percentage points.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby Thundersnow » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:03 pm

Excellent work, The Schwab. I've looked at a lot of proposals in recent years and this is the best plan I've ever seen.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby classB4ever » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:06 pm

So far, some good feedback. I have always enjoyed discussing these topics with Bisonguy06 and heimer. What do you think about Schwab's proposal?
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby Flying Wallenda » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:24 pm

The Schwab wrote:Here's the plan:

If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage less than 10 your number is multiplied by 1.4
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 10-19 your number is multiplied by 1.25
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 20-39 your number is multiplied by 1
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage between 40-49 your number is multiplied by .75
If your school has a Free and Reduced percentage greater than 49 your number is multiplied by .6


AAA Schools (Male Enrollment above 450)
1104- Minot
767- Williston
761- Fargo Davies
747- West Fargo Sheyenne
733- West Fargo
729- Bismarck
721- Bismarck Century
695- Bismarck Legacy
679- Grand Forks Central
602- Fargo North
581- GF Red River
580- Mandan
570- Dickinson
532- Fargo South

AA Schools (Male Enrollment between 150-449)
413- Jamestown
312- Watford City
267.4- Fargo Shanley- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR%<10
256- Valley City
245- Bismarck St. Marys- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR % <10
197.5- Central Cass- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
192.6- Devils Lake- Multiplied by .6 due to FR% >49

187.8- Turtle Mountain- Multiplied by .6 due to FR%>49
169- Horace
167.5- Kindred- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
165.75 - Wahpeton- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49
161.25- DLB- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19


A Schools (Enrollment between 75 and 149)
132- Velva
131.6- Thompson- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR%<10
130.2- Fargo Oak Grove- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR % <10
130- Southern McClean- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19

130- Beulah
129- EEKM
126.25- Lisbon- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
126- Bismarck Shiloh- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR% <10

125- South Prairie/Max
121.25- Northern Cass - Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
119- PRFL
117.5- Ray PL- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
112- Dickinson Trinity- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR% <10

112- Stanley
109- HCV
108- Carrington
106.25- Hazen- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
102.2- Minot Ryan- Multiplied by 1.4 due to FR% <10

101- Bottineau
97- Linton HMB
95- Surrey- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
94.5- Grafton- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49

94- Heart River
92- Killdeer
91.25- Bowman- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
90- Tioga-70-Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19

90- Rugby
86- Harvey/WC
85- Hettinger-Scranton- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
85- Oakes
83- Langdon
82- MPCG/FS
81- Sargent County
80- Hatton/Northwood
79- Kenmare B/BC

9 Man Schools (Male Enrollment under 75)
74.4- Four Winds- Multiplied by .6 due to FR%>49
72- Richardton Taylor/Hebron
72- Nelson County
70- Lewis and Clark-Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
69- New Salem
66.75- Nedrose- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49
66- Central McClean
64- Larimore
63.6- Dunseith- Multiplied by .6 due to FR% < 10
62- Wyndmere/Lidgerwood
60- Cavalier
60- Divide County
58.75- Alexander- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
58- Grant County/Flasher
58- TGU
57- Westhope NG
57- LaMoure/LM
56- GCC/Midkota
55- Kidder County
54- North Prairie- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49
54- Enderlin
53- North Star
52.5- MRNE- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 10-19
51- Beach
49- New Rockford/Sheyenne
48- MLS
47.5- Richland- Multiplied by 1.25 due to FR% 10-19
46.8- Fairmount/CT/R- Multipled by .6 due to FR%>49

45- Maple River
43.5- South Border- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49
43- North Border
42- Hankinson
40.8- St. John- Multiplied by .6 due to FR% >49
40- Parshall
39- Midway/Minto- Multiplied by .6 due to FR%>49
38- Napoleon GS
28.5- Benson County- Multiplied by .75 due to FR% 40-49


Gotta admit, I kind of like this. Thoughts:

Jamestown feels to be on an Island to me - DLB the same. Hatton Northwood has really struggled I believe - but considering they are an opt down school, this maybe where they should land.

Would this be a "floating plan" with a yearly change? You had expressed disappointment with that piece of the current plan Schwab.

I like the size of the classes here. The East/West breakdown seems pretty even as well besides in AA. Large amount of east teams vs west.

I feel a 2 to 1 student ratio is what the goal should be - this is close. Very close.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:37 pm

I would have no problems with this being adjusted every few years, as long as everyone knows what the cutoffs are.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:43 pm

The Schwab wrote:I would have no problems with this being adjusted every few years, as long as everyone knows what the cutoffs are.


Were all coop schools included in the multiplier usage...or just the base school?
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:47 pm

WalkingStick wrote:
The Schwab wrote:I would have no problems with this being adjusted every few years, as long as everyone knows what the cutoffs are.


Were all coop schools included in the multiplier usage...or just the base school?


All of the schools were used, I calculated the percentage based on the numbers that NDHSAA uses. I suppose that percentage could change based on enrollment in each school.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:22 am

I don't really get why 12 teams in AA with DLB having no one to play? So basically they have to drive 4 to 5 hours to every away game? But the plan looks great as long as you get CC and Kindred playing in AA... Problem solved. Wait. lets move all the Privates into AA as well. Then at least you get above 11 teams.
In this plan St. Mary's and Shanley will win the next 19 out of 20 state Championships.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:26 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I don't really get why 12 teams in AA with DLB having no one to play? So basically they have to drive 4 to 5 hours to every away game? But the plan looks great as long as you get CC and Kindred playing in AA... Problem solved. Wait. lets move all the Privates into AA as well. Then at least you get above 11 teams.
In this plan St. Mary's and Shanley will win the next 19 out of 20 state Championships.


What is inequitable about the plan I proposed? I have already stated that I feel the DLB is an outlier in the plan. In my opinion they are the only outlier. If their Free and Reduced percentage would increase a small amount then they would be out of class AA. If that is the only problem with the plan than I think we have a good idea. The schools in class AA are very, very similar.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:42 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I don't really get why 12 teams in AA with DLB having no one to play? So basically they have to drive 4 to 5 hours to every away game? But the plan looks great as long as you get CC and Kindred playing in AA... Problem solved. Wait. lets move all the Privates into AA as well. Then at least you get above 11 teams.
In this plan St. Mary's and Shanley will win the next 19 out of 20 state Championships.


No one to play? Last I checked Watford, Bismarck, DL, and Belcourt aren't far road trips. No reason they couldn't continue to play Ryan and Velva in A if the scheduling worked out, too.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:40 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I don't really get why 12 teams in AA with DLB having no one to play? So basically they have to drive 4 to 5 hours to every away game? But the plan looks great as long as you get CC and Kindred playing in AA... Problem solved. Wait. lets move all the Privates into AA as well. Then at least you get above 11 teams.
In this plan St. Mary's and Shanley will win the next 19 out of 20 state Championships.


We all know Shanley would opt up...so they won't be AA.

DLB is an outlier...we have all noticed that but someone will always be an outlier. You can't please everyone with any plan
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:00 pm

Ok Shanley opts up....
I would say change it to have all privates go up to AA as well. Ryan, DT, Shiloh and Oak Grove.... I do think you should add a few more schools at least to get to 18 or 20 teams. Maybe a couple AAA that don't win very much so they could get some wins and get their programs back on their feet.
At least Lisbon, Grafton and HCV... they all chain stores and fast foot restaurants in them.... and street lights.... that qualifies you as a AA school.
Then you could have St. Mary's Win the next 16 out of 20 years with Jamestown get the other 4.
I bet they were really mad this year because they took second this year. Jamestown will have to be moved up to AAA next year.

By the way.... I agree it took a lot of work and it is well thought out. BUT is it perfect... Nope..... because there is no perfect answer... Just like this years classes. I still think that almost all the playoff teams had a chance this year to win it all... Kindred first two wins were by 5 points... Yes they stuck it to HCV but that was a revenge game because HCV has owned Kindred for many years.

I would like to see the most competitive teams play each other and good competition.
In Class B 11 man you had so many state championship teams... traditional strong programs in 9 Man and 11 man playing each other this year....
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:07 pm

I personally think it's about as fair as you can get. You don't like it because Kindred would be in AA. I didn't cherry pick where I wanted teams at. If you can come up with a fair and equitable system that puts all of the privates in AA football I'd welcome it.

If you think that almost every team in 11A football playoffs had a chance to win it all this year, I don't know what to even say to that.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:18 am

You really want to see Oak Grove play AA football with 20 kids…no offense to them cause their coaches work hard to improve what they have but they aren’t even competitive in A what would be the benefit for them to be up?

If their enrollment caused them to be there that’s one thing…if it’s just your pure hatred for them then that’s just wrong. I get it…many here hate the private schools but the system ‘The Schwab’ has listed here is about as fair as it gets for all teams involved (except for poor DLB).

I have no problems giving the current/new system another two years because one season doesn’t define it…I just don’t like some of the opt downs that were allowed. Schwab you mentioned at one point, somewhere, that maybe historically bad teams are allowed to move down…I’d be all for St. Mary’s being moved up and Williston being moved down for 11AA & 11A and we’d get rid of half the complaints that seem to be centered around BSM; that’s just my take on that as Williston has been historically bad in the top division.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:56 am

I just don't like the fact of only 11 teams that you have listed. 11 teams is not nearly enough for a division that includes Class B schools. So I do think that you would need to add the privates. Yes... Oak Grove would get killed which might kill the program. BUT.... the plan is to get Kindred and CC into AA so they can beat up on by Jamestown and BSM....
The main problem with the plan is the number of teams in 11A and the travel time.

Make it 100 to 275
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:59 am

maddog1971 wrote:I just don't like the fact of only 11 teams that you have listed. 11 teams is not nearly enough for a division that includes Class B schools. So I do think that you would need to add the privates. Yes... Oak Grove would get killed which might kill the program. BUT.... the plan is to get Kindred and CC into AA so they can beat up on by Jamestown and BSM....
The main problem with the plan is the number of teams in 11A and the travel time.

Make it 100 to 275


Maybe we are needing only 3 classes then…oh but then the enrollment of BSM brings them down with all the Bs then
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:26 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I just don't like the fact of only 11 teams that you have listed. 11 teams is not nearly enough for a division that includes Class B schools. So I do think that you would need to add the privates. Yes... Oak Grove would get killed which might kill the program. BUT.... the plan is to get Kindred and CC into AA so they can beat up on by Jamestown and BSM....
The main problem with the plan is the number of teams in 11A and the travel time.

Make it 100 to 275


So then you are suggesting that we should have 3 classes? Enrollments under 100, 100-275 and over 275?

You're also saying that it's a better system to have Bismarck St. Mary's and Fargo Shanley (if they didn't opt up) play against Bottineau than it is to have a class of 11 schools made up of eight class A schools and the two largest class B schools plus DLB? I know that DLB is an outlier, have said it many times.

Just trying to understand the thinking behind that.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:40 pm

I honestly don't care as long as you get a Class AAA Power House program like BSM out of playing Class B schools. And as long as regional games on a Friday Night... you don't have to travel 5 hours 3 to 4 times a year.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:55 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I honestly don't care as long as you get a Class AAA Power House program like BSM out of playing Class B schools. And as long as regional games on a Friday Night... you don't have to travel 5 hours 3 to 4 times a year.


In 1997 the state went to 4 classes for football. BSM played in AAA for 12 seasons and they won 29 games.

This is an honest question: Do you feel that the make up of Bismarck St. Mary's is closer to that of Minot High and Bismarck (High, Century, Legacy) or Central Cass and Kindred?
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:27 pm

maddog1971 wrote:I honestly don't care as long as you get a Class AAA Power House program like BSM out of playing Class B schools. And as long as regional games on a Friday Night... you don't have to travel 5 hours 3 to 4 times a year.


Current System:
Shanley (already up) & St. Mary's up (.808 win % in AA since 2010)
Let Williston opt down for historically poor reasoning (.184 win % in AAA since 2010)

Fully use the QRF or a new, similarly created formula for seeding (H2H tiebreaker used) for Top 2 Divisions
Allow for cross division games for non-conference to have some shorter road trips; play neutral site games in between for schools like Wahpeton/Watford City if wanted or have two or three games at a Bismarck site for a day of football.

Note: I have zero problem with your plan Schwab. On paper, it looks well thought out & clear. The problem that has always been the case for the AA or 11A division is that there are less teams that fall into that enrollment range.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:06 am

The Schwab wrote:
maddog1971 wrote:I honestly don't care as long as you get a Class AAA Power House program like BSM out of playing Class B schools. And as long as regional games on a Friday Night... you don't have to travel 5 hours 3 to 4 times a year.


In 1997 the state went to 4 classes for football. BSM played in AAA for 12 seasons and they won 29 games.

This is an honest question: Do you feel that the make up of Bismarck St. Mary's is closer to that of Minot High and Bismarck (High, Century, Legacy) or Central Cass and Kindred?


Yes and Yes I do. BSM is a football school. They pull kids from population of 100,000 plus for their program with no school boundary's. They play and beat AAA schools. They are winning state titles or in the final four every year. Yes they had a 12 years of not going to state in AAA.... BIG DEAL... In school history this year is Kindred's first State Title.... not sure but I think CC has 1 as well...... and your plan is to get them out of playing Class B football because it is unfair? But you are fine with BSM winning every year? Because they were bad for a 12 years? That makes no sense to me. Same thing with Shiloh basically going to state every year in Basketball.... Something needs to change in Basketball.... that Schwab and I are on the same page. Privates and big B's.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby ChickenNuggets » Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:31 pm

I just saw that St. Mary's is moving up to 11AA due to accumulation of success points over the past 4 years.

11AA will have 11 teams (4 East, 7 West)

11A will have 12 Teams (8 East, 4 West) as the west loses St. Mary's and the east adds Horace.

This was all posted on Twitter by Jody Norstedt from Midco Sports.
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby WalkingStick » Fri Dec 03, 2021 7:03 pm

ChickenNuggets wrote:I just saw that St. Mary's is moving up to 11AA due to accumulation of success points over the past 4 years.

11AA will have 11 teams (4 East, 7 West)

11A will have 12 Teams (8 East, 4 West) as the west loses St. Mary's and the east adds Horace.

This was all posted on Twitter by Jody Norstedt from Midco Sports.


That’s good…I really think they should allow Williston down to 11A (I know they have a high enrollment but they have under a .200 win pct at highest class) and the competitive balance would be pretty solid in both classes

https://ndhsaa.com/uploads/files/2022_2 ... egions.pdf
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Re: Football Plan with Free and Reduced Multipliers

Postby maddog1971 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:39 am

WOW.... I am finally happy.... BSM finally playing where they are not guaranteed a state championship game.
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