Another Season Forfeiture

North Dakota High School Football
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Flip » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:43 pm

magic man wrote:Totally Agree with this.. Concussions is a lame excuse that people are hiding behind, now that the movie and some old players had one.

Someone mentioned a 20K bill for a leg injury as being a factor.. Do leg injuries not happen in other sports? They are letting their kids play in those.

It's about the kids.. Football is a tough person sport, and most of today's kids just aren't built tough.. They are coddled..

Kids probably are "softer" now than they were a generation ago, but that doesn't change the fact that football is a dangerous game. There are leg injuries in other sports, but it's obvious to most people (not you) that you are at a greater risk of getting one playing football than other sports.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Sportsrube » Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:57 am

Even if kids are "softer" than they used to be and some people think the concussion argument is a joke, the injury factor and the concussion factor do figure into why fewer kids are playing football. People may think those reasons are a "joke" but that doesn't change the fact that parents (and in some cases kids) are concerned enough about it to not play football.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby defensewinsgames » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:14 am

I don't want to discount the concussion issue, I think it does play a significant role in the drop in numbers but I think there is more to it than that. Football has always been a unique game compared to volleyball, basketball, or track. First of all the sheer numbers on a football team are different than other sports. Realistically on any given Friday there is probably 25 plus kids contributing in some capacity to a varsity team (special teams, offense, defense). In basketball you probably have 7 to 9 kids contributing to varsity. My point being that kids have to accept a role on a football team that isn't as large as they want or as visible. It is a sport where there is a huge advantage to being larger, stronger, and physically more mature. It is harder than other sports to get the freshmen on the field in significant roles sometimes even in JV so kids become discourage or bored (that first year they are basically tackling dummies for the varsity). I just think that kids want to be "the guy" now more than ever before. Being a part of team isn't the primary objective, rather kids want individual recognition and individual success. It's harder to get individual recognition when you are taking a smaller role on a team. It is also harder to look good and get individual recognition in a sport where you can't see much of the athlete other than their arms and shins. I think it is becoming increasingly harder to convince kids to spend 3 years throwing their bodies at other humans to get a chance to start as a senior. They look around at social media and see other kids getting all of these college offers and posting their stats and talking about winning. Then you ask them to put the team above them self and accept a role to contribute on a losing team and the kids would just rather do something else.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby classB4ever » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:37 am

A few thoughts:

1. Football is a collision sport where the stronger/tougher/faster you are the better you are. Much of today's society/media is beating down masculinity/machismo (watch a Gillette commercial). I wonder why the numbers are down?

2. Early season football practices are hard work. Hard conditioning is essential to prevent injuries. Coaches have the unenviable task of: A. Losing players in first days of practice because they push them too hard (kids have gotten lazier). B. Losing players in practice to injuries by having hard hitting contact drills. C. Softening up practices early only to lose players to injuries in games because of lack of conditioning. With small numbers, coaches just can't afford to lose many players in the first place.

Kids are not as tough as they use to be. Period. This is not the children's fault. Society/parenting has pushed them in this direction. They use to play tackle football without pads in back yards while growing up. Use to play school yard games where contact was a normal part. They are not outside climbing trees, doing chores or building things. The core strength developed in throwing bales, carrying water/feed pails and rough housing is not the same as lifting weights.

Kids are too protected from getting hurt in today's society. Emotionally and physically. Not allowed to skin a knee or get a bruise. To be told they are not good enough and have to work harder to make the cut. Heck, playgrounds use to be a patch of grass with a few swings and teeter-totters. Dodge ball, red rover, football were the games being played. Now all the equipment is plastic and God forbid there's any contact games played on a school playground.

Too many phones and video games. I bet kids today have a better chance of getting hurt while walking down the street staring at their phone or texting and driving than in a football game. These are parenting/societal faults and parents should look in the mirror. These same parents can be the first to wonder why/complain that their kids are not getting enough playing time.

Parents make up the rules and excuses. Quite frankly, it's easier for parents to go out and spend $500 on video games and throw their kids into a room for hours to free up their own time rather than get outside and play with them or oversee them.

2 cents.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby hoophoophoop » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:41 pm

agree
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby magic man » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Sportsrube wrote:Even if kids are "softer" than they used to be and some people think the concussion argument is a joke, the injury factor and the concussion factor do figure into why fewer kids are playing football. People may think those reasons are a "joke" but that doesn't change the fact that parents (and in some cases kids) are concerned enough about it to not play football.


But they have no qualms about those very same injuries in Hockey?

Football is tough.. it's hot during the summer/early fall.. bugs, etc.. without the glamour and glitz, kids don't want to put in the work to get to the glory.

Stats show that injuries are darn near as likely to happen in hockey/soccer..
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby magic man » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:16 pm

classB4ever wrote:A few thoughts:

1. Football is a collision sport where the stronger/tougher/faster you are the better you are. Much of today's society/media is beating down masculinity/machismo (watch a Gillette commercial). I wonder why the numbers are down?

2. Early season football practices are hard work. Hard conditioning is essential to prevent injuries. Coaches have the unenviable task of: A. Losing players in first days of practice because they push them too hard (kids have gotten lazier). B. Losing players in practice to injuries by having hard hitting contact drills. C. Softening up practices early only to lose players to injuries in games because of lack of conditioning. With small numbers, coaches just can't afford to lose many players in the first place.

Kids are not as tough as they use to be. Period. This is not the children's fault. Society/parenting has pushed them in this direction. They use to play tackle football without pads in back yards while growing up. Use to play school yard games where contact was a normal part. They are not outside climbing trees, doing chores or building things. The core strength developed in throwing bales, carrying water/feed pails and rough housing is not the same as lifting weights.

Kids are too protected from getting hurt in today's society. Emotionally and physically. Not allowed to skin a knee or get a bruise. To be told they are not good enough and have to work harder to make the cut. Heck, playgrounds use to be a patch of grass with a few swings and teeter-totters. Dodge ball, red rover, football were the games being played. Now all the equipment is plastic and God forbid there's any contact games played on a school playground.

Too many phones and video games. I bet kids today have a better chance of getting hurt while walking down the street staring at their phone or texting and driving than in a football game. These are parenting/societal faults and parents should look in the mirror. These same parents can be the first to wonder why/complain that their kids are not getting enough playing time.

Parents make up the rules and excuses. Quite frankly, it's easier for parents to go out and spend $500 on video games and throw their kids into a room for hours to free up their own time rather than get outside and play with them or oversee them.

2 cents.


Perfectly stated... 100% agreed
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby maddog1971 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:13 am

magic man wrote:
classB4ever wrote:A few thoughts:

1. Football is a collision sport where the stronger/tougher/faster you are the better you are. Much of today's society/media is beating down masculinity/machismo (watch a Gillette commercial). I wonder why the numbers are down?

2. Early season football practices are hard work. Hard conditioning is essential to prevent injuries. Coaches have the unenviable task of: A. Losing players in first days of practice because they push them too hard (kids have gotten lazier). B. Losing players in practice to injuries by having hard hitting contact drills. C. Softening up practices early only to lose players to injuries in games because of lack of conditioning. With small numbers, coaches just can't afford to lose many players in the first place.

Kids are not as tough as they use to be. Period. This is not the children's fault. Society/parenting has pushed them in this direction. They use to play tackle football without pads in back yards while growing up. Use to play school yard games where contact was a normal part. They are not outside climbing trees, doing chores or building things. The core strength developed in throwing bales, carrying water/feed pails and rough housing is not the same as lifting weights.

Kids are too protected from getting hurt in today's society. Emotionally and physically. Not allowed to skin a knee or get a bruise. To be told they are not good enough and have to work harder to make the cut. Heck, playgrounds use to be a patch of grass with a few swings and teeter-totters. Dodge ball, red rover, football were the games being played. Now all the equipment is plastic and God forbid there's any contact games played on a school playground.

Too many phones and video games. I bet kids today have a better chance of getting hurt while walking down the street staring at their phone or texting and driving than in a football game. These are parenting/societal faults and parents should look in the mirror. These same parents can be the first to wonder why/complain that their kids are not getting enough playing time.

Parents make up the rules and excuses. Quite frankly, it's easier for parents to go out and spend $500 on video games and throw their kids into a room for hours to free up their own time rather than get outside and play with them or oversee them.

2 cents.


Perfectly stated... 100% agreed


Totally agree... I had a lady that told me it was to dangerous to play and the next day her son was texting and vaping while he ran into a ditch and rolled his car. Yes.... Football is dangerous.
My boys play and I personally lost the use of my right arm for almost a year from nerve damage from football. And here I am letting my kids play. I know things can be dangerous.... but that is life. Get them in football and sports and get them off drugs and TEXTING and DRIVING
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby ND Sports Fan » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:30 pm

Several thoughts on everything in this thread:

1.) The NDHSAA football restructuring model is at the core of the Stanley issue. It is the only sport in the state that has 5 levels (AAA, AA, A, 9-man, 6-man). How is it that all other sports have Class A & B, yet football needs 5 levels. I understand Football is a numbers game, however, 5 levels? There has to be a better model. To the best of my knowledge, no other HS sport has a committee comprised of coaches/athletic directors/administrators to determine which teams should play where.

2.) Would Stanley have forfeited the season if they were still in A? I hear "competitive balance", but isn't this really about program culture and development? Are you telling me they will see a bunch of kids suddenly come out since they are going to only play against JV competition with a chance to win? They broke a co-op to avoid AA football previously. What is the message in that to your kids, coaches, school, and community? We want to build a strong program, but only if we can compete at the level of our choosing. (see #1 above)

3.) I believe the concussion argument to be overblown. Is it a collision sport? Yes. Is it a dangerous sport? No (IMO). Danger implies that doing it contains a certain amount of recklessness. I do not believe that to be the case. Injuries happen in every sport. Some more severe than others. I believe blaming concussions is a fear tactic by some to push football down as a sport. Are parents talking to their kids about the risk of injury in other sports: Pitchers getting hit by a batted ball in baseball; Injuries caused by Skate/Stick in Hockey; concussions from headers in Soccer; Knee or Ankle injuries in Basketball. I've been around football for 45 years, and I can tell you, concussions may be the least number of injuries I've seen in the sport. I think people either are or are not "football supporters", and concussion risk is the easy way out if you are not.

4.) Who is making the decision to play or not play football? Is it the kids, or the parents? I see more and more parents talking their kids out of football by using various tactics. Do we know in many cases if the kids want to play, but mom and dad make it "fun", "easy", "enticing" not to play.

5.) The video game craze, I can't even get into. I'd be typing all day.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Flip » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:47 pm

ND Sports Fan wrote:1.) The NDHSAA football restructuring model is at the core of the Stanley issue. It is the only sport in the state that has 5 levels (AAA, AA, A, 9-man, 6-man).

You can't consider 6-man a class. NDHSAA doesn't have enrollment cutoff to put teams in 6-man. Midway-Minto is probably close to an 11-man enrollment. If 5 schools next year decided to play 8-man the NDHSAA can't stop them.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby maddog1971 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:14 am

If the parents encourage these kids not to to out... Shame on them. Football is a game of life. The lessons you learn will make you a better man. And if the Stanley parents encouraged their kids not to go out because they were just going to get beat.... what did that teach your kids. I hope they end up living in their parents basement playing video games and drinking beer yelling for mom to get them some more meatloaf. :lol:
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:58 am

Hopefully they are still being active and doing other sports. Not everyone is a football player and there are always other options to staying active and out of ‘trouble’.

There are a lot of assumptions and accusations going around on this topic but no one truly knows the real reason(s)...I don’t either so don’t ask me. Some schools go through lulls with athletes...now is the time to develop what you have and the youth upcoming and the numbers will bounce back
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby classB4ever » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:47 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Hopefully they are still being active and doing other sports. Not everyone is a football player and there are always other options to staying active and out of ‘trouble’.

There are a lot of assumptions and accusations going around on this topic but no one truly knows the real reason(s)...I don’t either so don’t ask me. Some schools go through lulls with athletes...now is the time to develop what you have and the youth upcoming and the numbers will bounce back


Good post. 100% agree that not just football but sports in general are not for everyone. However, it use to be good enough to participate and help out the team whether you were a starter or not. You were part of the team and of it's success. I bet if you could put a "like" button on their jersey so they could get instant feedback and gratification, more kids would go out. :shock:

One thing I have noticed is our country is really pushing towards the "global" sport of soccer. Seems like networks are shoving it down viewer's throats. As mentioned in an upstream post, I would be willing to bet that soccer has more concussion related injuries than football, but those are swept under the rug because soccer is the "PC" sport.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby The Schwab » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:05 pm

People are entitled to their opinions on everything. Just because you don't understand or agree with what people are choosing to do doesn't make them wrong. CTE is a real issue in our society and they've just reached the tip of the iceberg IMO. Kind of tough to tell kids that video games won't get them anywhere when:
1. A teen-aged kid just won 3 million dollars playing Fortnite
2. The California E-Sports state tournament sold out the Staples Center for 3 straight days
3. Colleges and Universities give out scholarships for E-Sports
4. E-Sports will be a NDHSAA activity next year (Some club teams this year)
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby classB4ever » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:17 pm

The Schwab wrote:People are entitled to their opinions on everything. Just because you don't understand or agree with what people are choosing to do doesn't make them wrong. CTE is a real issue in our society and they've just reached the tip of the iceberg IMO. Kind of tough to tell kids that video games won't get them anywhere when:
1. A teen-aged kid just won 3 million dollars playing Fortnite
2. The California E-Sports state tournament sold out the Staples Center for 3 straight days
3. Colleges and Universities give out scholarships for E-Sports
4. E-Sports will be a NDHSAA activity next year (Some club teams this year)


As always Swhwab, good info. Always 2 sides to every story. Point taken. Sometimes you have to jump on the bus or get left behind. But it also doesn't mean that the bus is going in the right direction every time either.

2 cents.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby The Schwab » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:46 pm

classB4ever wrote:
The Schwab wrote:People are entitled to their opinions on everything. Just because you don't understand or agree with what people are choosing to do doesn't make them wrong. CTE is a real issue in our society and they've just reached the tip of the iceberg IMO. Kind of tough to tell kids that video games won't get them anywhere when:
1. A teen-aged kid just won 3 million dollars playing Fortnite
2. The California E-Sports state tournament sold out the Staples Center for 3 straight days
3. Colleges and Universities give out scholarships for E-Sports
4. E-Sports will be a NDHSAA activity next year (Some club teams this year)


As always Swhwab, good info. Always 2 sides to every story. Point taken. Sometimes you have to jump on the bus or get left behind. But it also doesn't mean that the bus is going in the right direction every time either.

2 cents.


I absolutely agree on the point that bus isn't always in the right direction! I hate seeing schools/co-ops not be able to field teams, especially for those kids that love the sport and want to play but won't be able to.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:10 pm

MN & WI have started fishing clubs, leagues & tournaments. I know in the fall, cross country is a huge growing sport in ND, especially in Class B, that affects the numbers game...more schools have teams then ever in the past (even with some coops). Theatre is also growing in many schools.

There are endless opportunities to keep students ‘out of trouble’ and active....it’s just about finding those passions.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby maddog1971 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:30 pm

The Schwab wrote:People are entitled to their opinions on everything. Just because you don't understand or agree with what people are choosing to do doesn't make them wrong. CTE is a real issue in our society and they've just reached the tip of the iceberg IMO. Kind of tough to tell kids that video games won't get them anywhere when:
1. A teen-aged kid just won 3 million dollars playing Fortnite
2. The California E-Sports state tournament sold out the Staples Center for 3 straight days
3. Colleges and Universities give out scholarships for E-Sports
4. E-Sports will be a NDHSAA activity next year (Some club teams this year)


Both my boys play video games.... nothing wrong with it. I can go on forever but I won't. Football is not for everyone.... but when kids that have played and enjoy playing quit because they are playing AA instead of A.... and yes... I know people from Stanley and yes.... that is basically the reason they all come back to.

CTE is a problem a small problem........ TExting and Driving..... Vaping... Drinking... Drugs... Unproctected sex.... Child predators..... that stuff is the real problem.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby The Schwab » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:08 pm

maddog1971 wrote:
The Schwab wrote:People are entitled to their opinions on everything. Just because you don't understand or agree with what people are choosing to do doesn't make them wrong. CTE is a real issue in our society and they've just reached the tip of the iceberg IMO. Kind of tough to tell kids that video games won't get them anywhere when:
1. A teen-aged kid just won 3 million dollars playing Fortnite
2. The California E-Sports state tournament sold out the Staples Center for 3 straight days
3. Colleges and Universities give out scholarships for E-Sports
4. E-Sports will be a NDHSAA activity next year (Some club teams this year)


Both my boys play video games.... nothing wrong with it. I can go on forever but I won't. Football is not for everyone.... but when kids that have played and enjoy playing quit because they are playing AA instead of A.... and yes... I know people from Stanley and yes.... that is basically the reason they all come back to.

CTE is a problem a small problem........ TExting and Driving..... Vaping... Drinking... Drugs... Unproctected sex.... Child predators..... that stuff is the real problem.


All of the items you listed are major problems, I agree with that. I do not agree that CTE is a small problem. When you have players constantly getting bigger, faster and stronger it leads to more violent collisions. Violent collisions cause jarring of the brain, jarring of the brain causes trauma etc...

I am not going to say anything on the specific situation of Stanley, because I don't know the reasons why kids aren't going out or why they are playing a JV schedule. I also am not going to chastise a teenager for not going out for a sport, no matter the reason.

I have a large problem with how ND determines classes for football. Basing the decision solely on the number of boys you have in younger certain grades multiplied by a free and reduced meals percentage is insane IMO. School size should be a factor, but only one of a few. Some of the other factors should be participation, success, town size, facilities etc...
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Flip » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:34 pm

In a thread where posters are trying to say other sports are just as dangerous as football.

Andrew Luck
I've been stuck in this process...I haven't been able to live the life I want to live. It's taken the joy out of this game ... the only way forward for me is to remove myself from football.


Luck was in the middle of a contract that had $80+M guaranteed and was in line for an extension that would have probably been north of $100M guaranteed.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:35 am

Flip wrote:In a thread where posters are trying to say other sports are just as dangerous as football.

Andrew Luck
I've been stuck in this process...I haven't been able to live the life I want to live. It's taken the joy out of this game ... the only way forward for me is to remove myself from football.


Luck was in the middle of a contract that had $80+M guaranteed and was in line for an extension that would have probably been north of $100M guaranteed.


Not sure people are saying football is not dangerous. Believe the discussion has been more on concussions/CTE in football vs. other sports. There are so many studies going on for CTE and not a lot of answers yet. Most experts agree on one thing, it's not a 1 hit thing but the culmination of many blows over a course of time.

Like anything in life, football is risk vs. reward. And that becomes completely subjective for every family. Risk - both my sons have metal in their bodies from injuries in football. Titanium plate and screws for one son and titanium screws for another. That is the risk. However, asked if they would trade the injuries for not playing football, it's 100% football. The reward? Learning hard work/teamwork pays off, meeting kids from all over the state whom they are still friends with years later and both were fortunate to get college scholarships.

Andrew Luck is fortunate enough to be retiring at around 30 years old with millions of dollars in his bank account, likely never having to work again if he chooses not to. Would like to ask him if he had a chance to do it again versus never having played football and working until he is 75 years old, what would he do. I think we know the answer.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby Flip » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:45 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Like anything in life, football is risk vs. reward. And that becomes completely subjective for every family. Risk - both my sons have metal in their bodies from injuries in football. Titanium plate and screws for one son and titanium screws for another. That is the risk. However, asked if they would trade the injuries for not playing football, it's 100% football. The reward? Learning hard work/teamwork pays off, meeting kids from all over the state whom they are still friends with years later and both were fortunate to get college scholarships.

I don't know if your kids could have got scholarships, but all the other stuff you mentioned could be done playing other sports.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby magic man » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:47 am

Flip wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Like anything in life, football is risk vs. reward. And that becomes completely subjective for every family. Risk - both my sons have metal in their bodies from injuries in football. Titanium plate and screws for one son and titanium screws for another. That is the risk. However, asked if they would trade the injuries for not playing football, it's 100% football. The reward? Learning hard work/teamwork pays off, meeting kids from all over the state whom they are still friends with years later and both were fortunate to get college scholarships.

I don't know if your kids could have got scholarships, but all the other stuff you mentioned could be done playing other sports.


Totally different grind with football, thus the point of a lot kids (especially around here) don't have the mental make up to play a "tough guy" sport.

I do think the tide is turning from the attack on Football as the FM Athletics had an increase of players this year.

Good to see.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby maddog1971 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:32 am

Those kids that quit or don't play will never know that feeling of Friday Night Lights! The cold Fall Nights.... grass a little wet... 20-40 young boys knowing what it feels to be part of something bigger than them. What it is like to be part of something special.... being part of win or a loss. .. how to handle it and grow in life.
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Re: Another Season Forfeiture

Postby The Schwab » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:41 am

maddog1971 wrote:Those kids that quit or don't play will never know that feeling of Friday Night Lights! The cold Fall Nights.... grass a little wet... 20-40 young boys knowing what it feels to be part of something bigger than them. What it is like to be part of something special.... being part of win or a loss. .. how to handle it and grow in life.


Something that can be achieved by participating in any sport
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