classB4ever wrote:My 2 questions would be:
1. Are class b teams deep enough to handle it?
2. With the gap widening between good teams and poorer teams, would the blow outs increase even more?
Run4Fun2009 wrote:I kinda agree with you winner. I would like to see the switch to halves instead of quarters...everyone else around us seems to have made the move (All classes in MN and Class A in ND)
NDplayin wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:I kinda agree with you winner. I would like to see the switch to halves instead of quarters...everyone else around us seems to have made the move (All classes in MN and Class A in ND)
While you may be right about all classes in Minnesota and Class A in North Dakota. You would be wrong to assume that everyone else around us is playing halves.
The NFHS (National Federation of High School Assossiations) rules indication high school basketball be played with four 8-minute quarters and no shot clock. As a matter of fact, the NDHSAA is a non-voting member of NFHS because Class A has had a shot clock for more than 3 years. NFHS rules allow states to implement an experimental rule for up to 3 years. Since Class A has had a shot clock for more than three years, the NFHS does not sanction ND Class A basketball, and the NDHSAA is a non-voting member.
We aren't in this thread to debate the shot-clock, and as I have said in other threads, I don't think the shot clock will have an impact on Class B basketball when two good teams play each other. My fear is that when a good teams play bad teams. Good teams will no longer beable to demonstrate sportsmanship by running a minute of the clock with a 30 point lead. The will be forced to shoot again and again and we will end up with a flood of 130-19 type scores. I think with the shot clock coming to Class B, we need to simultaneously implement a mercy rule to prevent these types of blowouts.
As for playing 18 minute halves, I don't bring up the NFHS to imply that ND must be followers of the rest of the nation; I brought it up to dispell any myths that "everyone else is playing halfs and ND is behind the times," because that simply isn't true. Also, while I don't necessarily think we need to be followers, I think it's nice to have our sport sanctioned by the NFHS and that it would also be nice for the NDHSAA to be a voting member.
As for 18 minute halfs in Class B basketball? Class A can handle 18 minute halves because of their depth. Moving the game from 32 minutes with two quarter breaks to 36 minutes with no quarter breaks requires teams to go at least 8 or 9 deep running not just 3 to 4 warm bodies off the bench, but 3 to 4 actual varsity ballplayers. Class A can handle finding that many capable student-athletes year after year. Class B schools very rarely go any deeper than 7.
I've labeled the shot-clock as a "no-impact" change except in great team vs. terrible team blowout situations. 18 minute halves would be a negative impact change for Class B basketball. Right now the North Stars, Bertholds, New Rockfords, and Parshalls of the state are extrememly competitive with the Graftons and the Carringtons (thus a 3-class system isn't necessary). 18 minute halfs would put the North Stars and the Bertholds at a nearly insurmountable disadvantage against the Graftons and the Carringtons.
NDplayin wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:I kinda agree with you winner. I would like to see the switch to halves instead of quarters...everyone else around us seems to have made the move (All classes in MN and Class A in ND)
While you may be right about all classes in Minnesota and Class A in North Dakota. You would be wrong to assume that everyone else around us is playing halves.
The NFHS (National Federation of High School Assossiations) rules indication high school basketball be played with four 8-minute quarters and no shot clock. As a matter of fact, the NDHSAA is a non-voting member of NFHS because Class A has had a shot clock for more than 3 years. NFHS rules allow states to implement an experimental rule for up to 3 years. Since Class A has had a shot clock for more than three years, the NFHS does not sanction ND Class A basketball, and the NDHSAA is a non-voting member.
We aren't in this thread to debate the shot-clock, and as I have said in other threads, I don't think the shot clock will have an impact on Class B basketball when two good teams play each other. My fear is that when a good teams play bad teams. Good teams will no longer beable to demonstrate sportsmanship by running a minute of the clock with a 30 point lead. The will be forced to shoot again and again and we will end up with a flood of 130-19 type scores. I think with the shot clock coming to Class B, we need to simultaneously implement a mercy rule to prevent these types of blowouts.
As for playing 18 minute halves, I don't bring up the NFHS to imply that ND must be followers of the rest of the nation; I brought it up to dispell any myths that "everyone else is playing halfs and ND is behind the times," because that simply isn't true. Also, while I don't necessarily think we need to be followers, I think it's nice to have our sport sanctioned by the NFHS and that it would also be nice for the NDHSAA to be a voting member.
As for 18 minute halfs in Class B basketball? Class A can handle 18 minute halves because of their depth. Moving the game from 32 minutes with two quarter breaks to 36 minutes with no quarter breaks requires teams to go at least 8 or 9 deep running not just 3 to 4 warm bodies off the bench, but 3 to 4 actual varsity ballplayers. Class A can handle finding that many capable student-athletes year after year. Class B schools very rarely go any deeper than 7.
I've labeled the shot-clock as a "no-impact" change except in great team vs. terrible team blowout situations. 18 minute halves would be a negative impact change for Class B basketball. Right now the North Stars, Bertholds, New Rockfords, and Parshalls of the state are extrememly competitive with the Graftons and the Carringtons (thus a 3-class system isn't necessary). 18 minute halfs would put the North Stars and the Bertholds at a nearly insurmountable disadvantage against the Graftons and the Carringtons.
winner-within wrote:This is story book stuff I actually have never seen a Class B team hold the ball for a minute to prevent humiliation in my over 30 years of watching it....Examples like this are actually funny, if there are teams out there coming up the pipe that have nothing competitive to bring to the floor than they best invest into Loom and start making RUGS...I am so tired of hearing the stories of Bad teams with no talent...I hope nobody is conveying this message to the actual programs who they believe will be faced with this dramatic dilemma!!
NDplayin wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:I kinda agree with you winner. I would like to see the switch to halves instead of quarters...everyone else around us seems to have made the move (All classes in MN and Class A in ND)
The NFHS (National Federation of High School Assossiations) rules indication high school basketball be played with four 8-minute quarters and no shot clock. As a matter of fact, the NDHSAA is a non-voting member of NFHS because Class A has had a shot clock for more than 3 years. NFHS rules allow states to implement an experimental rule for up to 3 years. Since Class A has had a shot clock for more than three years, the NFHS does not sanction ND Class A basketball, and the NDHSAA is a non-voting member.
NDplayin wrote:winner-within wrote:This is story book stuff I actually have never seen a Class B team hold the ball for a minute to prevent humiliation in my over 30 years of watching it....Examples like this are actually funny, if there are teams out there coming up the pipe that have nothing competitive to bring to the floor than they best invest into Loom and start making RUGS...I am so tired of hearing the stories of Bad teams with no talent...I hope nobody is conveying this message to the actual programs who they believe will be faced with this dramatic dilemma!!
Either you pick and choose to only go to competitive games or you live in an area where teams don't believe in sportsmanship. Between the regular season and district tournaments, both boys and girls, I see this situation play out 5 or 6 times a season, and that's just the 30 or so games I attend. I find it reasonable to assume it also happens at 5 or 6 out of every 30 games I don't attend. That's no story book.
In Class B, the pendulum swings hard both ways. You can have runs of good competitive athletes, and dry spells of no athletes. When a strong, potential state team is playing one of the bottom dwellers of their district, I've seen head coaches implement several tactics prevent leads from getting out of hand. I've seen them require minute possessions before a shot, I've seen them require all 5 players touch the ball before a shot, I've seen them require a set number of ball reversals before a shot, and under no circumstances do they allow fastbreak lay-ups. These tactics prevent scores from getting out of hand like the 130-17 score we saw this year. The fact that the coaches of North Dakota want a shot clock is fine with me, but since the shot clock takes away those tactics that prevent a blowout we also need a mercy rule. There is a difference between beating a team badly and embarrassing them.
NDplayin wrote:Winner-Within:
I guess from that last post I can't really tell where you stand on the subjects. Maybe you are as unclear about where I stand as I am about you. This is me:
1. I am not anti-shot clock, Im fine with the shot clock. I am pro-mercy rule. For as good as a Class B team like Northstar can be, there are Class B teams just as bad. I don't have much sympathy for those teams that they lose all their games. In my mind if they want to change it then it is up to them to start building a program. However, I don't find it necessary to embarrass them, which will happen if the shot-clock doesn't come hand-in-hand with a mercy rule.
2. I don't think 18 minutes halves is wise for Class B. The depth isn't there. 18 minute halves isn't a reflection on the evolution of the way the game of basketball is played, it is a reflection on the increased depth of basketball teams at the college (and perhaps large high school level). Even if the way Class B basketball is played is evolving, the amount of depth on the bench is a function of numbers, and those haven't evolved.
NDplayin wrote:Okay, now we are getting somewhere.
The depth issue has absolutely nothing to do with the shot clock. It does, however, have everything to do with Halves versus Quarters. I'm am separating shot clock and halves as two separate issues, depth comes into play when we are talking halves; the mercy rule comes into play when we are talking shot clock
There are several different ways you could work a mercy rule, this would be my current choice: At any time that the score equals a 30 point spread in the second half, the shot clock goes off, and the game clock runs continuously except for timeouts, free throws, and quarter breaks.
bequickdonthurry wrote:If halves are the answer, why don't they do that in the pros and in international play? Why only college and some rogue states?
winner-within wrote:Definitely not trying to answer anything....Pros? its another break fro TV...I want to know how many players in High School right now, wouldn't like 4 more Mins of PT each game.
NDplayin wrote:Either you would see more rotating or you would see a lot more exhausted players on the floor because they are playing more minutes with less breaks. Which ever way it goes the quality of play goes down. Exhausted kids don't play as well as they do when they are fresh, and most of the games Im at, when the 8th man checks into the game he is barely good enough to lace up his basketball shoes against varsity competition and is only meant for junk time the last few minutes of a game that isnt close. Rotating more makes basketball great if you have enough talent to rotate in. If you don't, you are just lowering the quality of play, and I don't think that's the answer.
As for your Varsity JV breakdown.... you get 6 quarter is class b. What I see state wide are the best 6 or 7 players (regardless of grade) playing 4 varisty quarters, and the 8th, 9th, 10th players (unless they are seniors) getting 3 or 4 quarters in the JV game and the left overs are "just in case" quarters for the Varsity.
You complain about Juniors playing JV. I think Varsity or JV is purely a function of your ability and not about your grade. Even better, if you have Juniors playing JV and they are taking that time away from some of your sophmores or freshman, it sounds like you are in the enviable position of fielding a C team. There are endless opportunities to get everyone playing time. We don't need to go to Halves to accomplish that.
winner-within wrote:I like your long explanations, they are well thought out...I will start from the top..Exhausted? If a person can train for and then actually compete in a 26 mile marathon than we know that 4 more mins in a Basketball game is null...and the reason I say Rotation would increase is not because of conditioning its because you simply have more time to play it out...especially if your theory of a shot clock will bring way more blowouts...I think your reading into far...I'm not saying the need for Halves is there...I'm saying it wouldn't bother me if we bellied up and jumped into whats taking place in alot of places....the reason a Shot clock or 2 halves had not been implemented thus far is not because we dont have the #'s or the $$$...its because ND Class B is Complacent and we dont want to rock the current Boat...If you will!.....Believe me, We are underestimating our athletes...Just 4 years ago you could watch ESPN all day and not see one thing on ND or SD and we have been States in this union for over 120 years now....Well now we had NDSU make the dance and today I saw NDSU and SDSU in the Bar on the bottom that runs across the TV screen...we have to be proud of that...and whether its Class A or Class B we have to believe our athlete's can land an opportunity to these schools in the future.....Run, Jump, Kick, Throw, Sprint, Catch whatever it is you like to do...do it.....I don't buy into exhaustion, it makes it sound like our youngins like the couch to much.
winner-within wrote:Just give one extra timeout each half than what they have now and you can take your break when you need it.
Indy5 wrote:winner-within wrote:Just give one extra timeout each half than what they have now and you can take your break when you need it.
Well in basketball your timeouts are for the whole game, not a half-to-half basis, so who's to say the coach takes that timeout in the first half?
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