classB4ever wrote:Well said.
How about if we set the time line to 10 years. Rather then going back to district and regional tournaments, for the sake of discussion let's just use state tournament appearances. Could anybody supply a list or a link to all state class b participants for the past 10 years? I have been unable to find that.
Run4Fun2009 wrote:2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 6)?
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
digger wrote:I'm going back to my question from the previous page: What are the problems? I remembered hearing Sherm Sylling on a newscast last winter state reasons for moving toward a 3 class system. Took a few minutes to go through a similar topic on ND Preps from last January and voila, here they are, January 27, 2009:
1. Overlapping seasons
2. Discrepancy in parity of play
3. Venue issues surrounding regional tournaments
Now I'm assuming that Sherm didn't go out and just let fly with the first things to come to mind, these must be the issues/ "problems" that the NDHSAA is attempting to address? I agree with classB4ever, the discrepancy in parity of play issue is emotional, it's primarily a "how does it affect me" thing. There will always be some emotion attached to this issue, my point is that we can remove some of the emotion and measure. We can use facts. Take a representative timeline, use a measurement (comparative records, district championships, regional berths, state berths) and see how the proposed smaller class schools compare to the middle class schools. Does this discrepancy in parity of play really exist or is it primarily an emotional argument? Have things changed in parity of play over the years or is it mainly perception, or perhaps changing attitudes toward what is considered fair/equal/equitable?
Bisonguy06 wrote:Can we talk about travel under the new proposed plan?
If you support the current plan as is, you are supporting a plan that puts Watford City and South Border (Ashley-Wishek) in the same region. Watford City and Ashley are 300 miles apart, and only half of those miles are interstate.
I would assume the regional tournament would be held in Bismarck, 195 miles away from Watford City.
I chose the most extreme example to make a larger point: travel will increase substantially under the new plan. This costs time and money for schools and parents. You would also have to assume that attendance at games would decrease due to an increase in travel.
I'd be willing to drive the extra miles if this plan solved some huge competitive imbalance, but I am not seeing it. I think the problems created by this plan are much larger than the problems "solved" by this plan.
Run4Fun2009 wrote:1999-2010 State Teams (missing two from 2005 and one from 2001)
2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Standing Rock
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2000 - Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Center, Sheyenne/Minnewauken, Scranton, Park River, LMM, Watford City
1999 - Leeds, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Center, Lisbon, LMM, Hillsboro, Mandaree
larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.
BB11 wrote:Run4Fun2009 wrote:1999-2010 State Teams (missing two from 2005 and one from 2001)
2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Standing Rock
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2000 - Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Center, Sheyenne/Minnewauken, Scranton, Park River, LMM, Watford City
1999 - Leeds, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Center, Lisbon, LMM, Hillsboro, Mandaree
2005 - Divide County was one - not sure about Region 3 though
2001 - Flasher came out of Region 5
classB4ever wrote:larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.
Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.
From looking at the numbers, I was slightly surprised to see the bigs didn't dominate more. But the numbers certainly prove it is not a myth.
As for the travel issues being discussed, it's all about districting. When I played ball 30 years ago, our high school team played two teams in the conference/district over 120 miles away. And in 3 years we never got to play our arch rival six miles away.
larrybird33 wrote:classB4ever wrote:larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.
Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.
From looking at the numbers, I was slightly surprised to see the bigs didn't dominate more. But the numbers certainly prove it is not a myth.
As for the travel issues being discussed, it's all about districting. When I played ball 30 years ago, our high school team played two teams in the conference/district over 120 miles away. And in 3 years we never got to play our arch rival six miles away.
I already addressed this... Bigs are going to be overrepresented and smalls are going to be underrepresented in ANY plan, whether we have 1, 2, 3, or 10 classes.
If we pass the 3 class plan, I guarantee you that Valley City will make it to state more often than Bowman County. If you're one of the smaller schools in your class, you will always be at a slight disadvantage. But we don't live in a utopia. You will always have that.
When small schools are making up 56% of state tournament berths, you can't say that the current system is totally unfair or unreasonable to them. Big schools have a slight advantage, but not an unreasonable advantage. The numbers show this as well. Private schools have advantages as well, but their numbers are in decline and I don't think you're going to see the same level of dominance.
Not all of the small schools are in decline, either. The bedroom communities to the larger cities are growing. The western oil boom towns are growing.
The same system has worked for years with the populations constantly being in flux. It works. The talk of competitive imbalance has been a lot of noise without a whole lot of fact.
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