2023/2024 Season Discussion

[Flying Wallenda]

I have been going back and forth over the season with Deng Deng, James Hamilton, Carter Zeller, and Wylee Delorme, and Bohden Duffield being the conversation.

I think pretty convincing arguments could be made for all at this point.

I'll be interested to see if a class B guys wins/gets close to winning in the coming years. I have no idea who the underclassman are coming up in B, but I gotta believe it will be hard for any to win with the difference in competition from the B level, to A, up to AA. My 2 cents. And yes, I know Braaten, Walz, etc are solid.

[balla45]

I feel that if someone is a D1 caliber athlete with some sort of skillset, in ND, that person is playing against people who have 0 chance of guarding them, unless they run in to another D1 caliber athlete.

Every player that I mentioned is good enough to lead their team to a state title and average a 30 point double double in the tournament. With very few head to head matchups, I do not think there is a clear best player in the 2024 class, outside of Jeremiah Sem and he missed several games which I believe will take him out of contention for the award.

If you have not watched any of the seniors that I mentioned, if you are a big basketball guy, all are worth an hour of your time.


I think in the coming years, a B guy will clearly need to have vastly superior numbers to win an award. The junior class in ND is loaded. Klabo has a very good shot at being the AA all time leading scorer. Ahneman is a 20/12 double double guy who leads AA in blocks. Parks leads AA in scoring. Falcon leads the AA west region in scoring. Sheldon is a 20+ ppg guy who leads AA in assists and steals. The DL and Kindred juniors are super talented as well. Then in B you have Braaten and Walz who are 25/10 guys with a combined 30-2 record and only 1 kids at the B level, when they played each other. I think Braaten will hit 2000 career points his next game.

The sophomore class does not boast as much talent and depth as the junior cass but I do not think there is an early front runner like we saw with Klabo. The freshman class currently seems to have an early front runner in Bakko.

[bk1990]

I have been going back and forth over the season with Deng Deng, James Hamilton, Carter Zeller, and Wylee Delorme, and Bohden Duffield being the conversation.

I think pretty convincing arguments could be made for all at this point.

I'll be interested to see if a class B guys wins/gets close to winning in the coming years. I have no idea who the underclassman are coming up in B, but I gotta believe it will be hard for any to win with the difference in competition from the B level, to A, up to AA. My 2 cents. And yes, I know Braaten, Walz, etc are solid.

I agree the level of competition is higher for AA over A and A over B. I have always felt it was a matter of depth, the old A could have 5 solid players on the floor at one time, whereas the old B, unless one of the top teams,2, maybe 3 legitimate scorers, if you tried double teams, the unguarded players could hurt you on a regular basis. I would like to see some of the smaller school players play on a big school team, they wouldn't have to face as many double, even triple teams. I thing they could more than hold their own and awards such as a Mr. Basketball should not be considered out of reach because they play for a small school. Braaten is consistently face guarded, has been since he was a freshman, and the opposition plan to stop him. He still gets his points, I wonder how many points he would get with only one defender the majority of the time. Same with Walz, as a post player, I think he gets 2, even three defenders on him when he touches in the post, still getting 20-10. Watched the Westhope/Ryan game on PSP, both these guys had good games with the defense focusing on them it appeared. I don't think talent is limited to a certain class, there is talent in all classes. Unfair or not and not sure how voting is done, but if the press votes on Mr.Basketball, if their are a couple contenders in the same region, I wonder if the vote gets split among them? This is taking nothing away from them, just how people vote based on their opinions

[maddog1971]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

[bk1990]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND for rebounds not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

[BasketballMind]

This one seems like as easy a Mr. Basketball decision that we've had in a long time.

Deng Deng should win Mr. Basketball and I don’t think it’s even close IMO.

[balla45]

If the season ended today, I would vote for him.

On the same token, say Fargo South or Devil’s Lake go and wins a state tournament and James Hamilton or Wylee Delorme have a 25/10 tourney, does your opinion change?

[maddog1971]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

All I can say is this. There is a reason we have different classes of Basketball.... Teams like Bowman County complained so much that it was not fair because small town kids can not compete against the Big B's so we made another class for them so they can win. So no I don't think the players in Class B basketball are as good as their numbers suggest. Not saying these kids can not play...not at all.. they can. Being double or triple teamed by the other team means some other players are wide open... pass the ball... Second... the players that are double teaming them are not very good.... 3rd... I have seen plenty of people face guarded a whole game but nobody is triple team a whole game... NOBODY. If they do... go stand in a corner and play 4 on 2 basketball. Also since these kids are good... they take 20 to 25 shots a game... they should average over 20

[The Schwab]

Not sure where your hate is coming from for Bowman County. I highly doubt you know how they feel/felt about the 3 class system. They made the state tournament 2 years ago in the old class B and played in the region title game last year. They have had a good run of athletes the last 4-5 years. Before that, they struggled for 4-5 years. Cyclical talent like most of your smaller schools. They lost a close one last night, but will be the favorite to win the region IMO.

I've said this before, if you take the very best class B kids and put them against the very best class A/AA kids they're right there. Usually in the Lions games it'll come down to physicality and overall size, where the Class A teams have had an advantage in years past. Basketball skill wise, top players are top players, regardless of class.

[WalkingStick]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

All I can say is this. There is a reason we have different classes of Basketball.... Teams like Bowman County complained so much that it was not fair because small town kids can not compete against the Big B's so we made another class for them so they can win. So no I don't think the players in Class B basketball are as good as their numbers suggest. Not saying these kids can not play...not at all.. they can. Being double or triple teamed by the other team means some other players are wide open... pass the ball... Second... the players that are double teaming them are not very good.... 3rd... I have seen plenty of people face guarded a whole game but nobody is triple team a whole game... NOBODY. If they do... go stand in a corner and play 4 on 2 basketball. Also since these kids are good... they take 20 to 25 shots a game... they should average over 20

When did Bowman County COMPLAIN?? You just enjoy attacking anyone that fits your agenda...Bishop Ryan, Kenmare, Oak Grove, now Bowman County?

[maddog1971]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

All I can say is this. There is a reason we have different classes of Basketball.... Teams like Bowman County complained so much that it was not fair because small town kids can not compete against the Big B's so we made another class for them so they can win. So no I don't think the players in Class B basketball are as good as their numbers suggest. Not saying these kids can not play...not at all.. they can. Being double or triple teamed by the other team means some other players are wide open... pass the ball... Second... the players that are double teaming them are not very good.... 3rd... I have seen plenty of people face guarded a whole game but nobody is triple team a whole game... NOBODY. If they do... go stand in a corner and play 4 on 2 basketball. Also since these kids are good... they take 20 to 25 shots a game... they should average over 20

When did Bowman County COMPLAIN?? You just enjoy attacking anyone that fits your agenda...Bishop Ryan, Kenmare, Oak Grove, now Bowman County?

Just using them as an example... maybe I should have said Carrington or Langdon... I was just trying to point out that good players are good players no matter what class but now with Class B the way it is...they are not facing other talented kids night in and night out like Class A and Class AA schools are. So if a kid is putting up 18 a Game in Class A or AA in means more than a kid putting up 24 in class B.

To be honest.... Bowman did make me mad a few years ago with their signs and chants at Football and Basketball games.

[Flying Wallenda]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

All I can say is this. There is a reason we have different classes of Basketball.... Teams like Bowman County complained so much that it was not fair because small town kids can not compete against the Big B's so we made another class for them so they can win. So no I don't think the players in Class B basketball are as good as their numbers suggest. Not saying these kids can not play...not at all.. they can. Being double or triple teamed by the other team means some other players are wide open... pass the ball... Second... the players that are double teaming them are not very good.... 3rd... I have seen plenty of people face guarded a whole game but nobody is triple team a whole game... NOBODY. If they do... go stand in a corner and play 4 on 2 basketball. Also since these kids are good... they take 20 to 25 shots a game... they should average over 20

When did Bowman County COMPLAIN?? You just enjoy attacking anyone that fits your agenda...Bishop Ryan, Kenmare, Oak Grove, now Bowman County?

Just using them as an example... maybe I should have said Carrington or Langdon... I was just trying to point out that good players are good players no matter what class but now with Class B the way it is...they are not facing other talented kids night in and night out like Class A and Class AA schools are. So if a kid is putting up 18 a Game in Class A or AA in means more than a kid putting up 24 in class B.

I agree with this........

[The Schwab]

Might be arbitrary and getting off topic, but I'd say 18 a game in AA is more impressive than 24 a game in B. Those numbers would be similar when comparing 18 in A to 24 in B IMO.

[WalkingStick]

Might be arbitrary and getting off topic, but I'd say 18 a game in AA is more impressive than 24 a game in B. Those numbers would be similar when comparing 18 in A to 24 in B IMO.

Klabo could go for 40+ a night in Class B.

[bk1990]

I would like to see these small town players get guarded by a 6'6 kid that is just as quick an athletic as small town players that dominate. I would like to see these kids come into Davies and see if they can still put up 30.. nope... If Klabo was playing in Bowman county.. he would be putting up 40 a night.

Me to, I would love to see some of these small school kids who dominate getting 25 point a night play some big school kids, and not face double or triple teams. I would love to see Klabo play for Bowman County, and get double and triple teamed, doesn't happen as much in Class AA now. Not taking anything away from him, he is a great player, but comparing apples and oranges.
Braaten just scored his 2000 point, amazing at any level and that is with being the focus of opposing defenses for the last 3 years, he has also received D1 football offers from NDSU, SDSU, UND and visited Minnesota. Someone must believe he is a great athlete and D1 talent. Just as many small school kids as big school have moved on to the next level and been successful. From what I can recall, the last two players to go Power 5 for basketball , the Hulberts, were from Enderlin. Joel, I think, all time leading in ND not in final 5 for Mr. Basketball? Tell me, how does that happen. Not sure how voting works for awards, but pretty sure the voters haven't seen all the kids play, and vote for the one's in their region, or the bigger market kids get more votes
I do think some of the small school kids could go to a big school and put up big numbers.
I would also like to see a 6'6" small school kid go against play a big school and get one on one coverage in the lane, I still think they are going to be dominate. You said it yourself, "get guarded by a 6'6" kid that is just as quick and athletic", the difference is they aren't facing the double, even triple teams,they will be just fine, and agree with what you said above, the small school kids are just as quick and athletic as the big school kids.

All I can say is this. There is a reason we have different classes of Basketball.... Teams like Bowman County complained so much that it was not fair because small town kids can not compete against the Big B's so we made another class for them so they can win. So no I don't think the players in Class B basketball are as good as their numbers suggest. Not saying these kids can not play...not at all.. they can. Being double or triple teamed by the other team means some other players are wide open... pass the ball... Second... the players that are double teaming them are not very good.... 3rd... I have seen plenty of people face guarded a whole game but nobody is triple team a whole game... NOBODY. If they do... go stand in a corner and play 4 on 2 basketball. Also since these kids are good... they take 20 to 25 shots a game... they should average over 20

Don't totally agree with your arguments. I feel the reason the three classes were created was so schools with 100 students weren't in the same division as schools with 300, and schools with 350 not in same division as schools with 1250.
For arguments sake and try to make all things equal, in the old A, the total number of students were comparable to total number of students in B. To me, it has always been a depth issue, to field a team with a school with 300, easier to make a solid roster than the school with 100. Now, draw from the entire pool of players in the state and have something such as, I don't know, the Lions All Star Game. Didn't the boys split the last two years? Also, didn't the girls split last year and B swept the previous year? To me, that just shows, talent is talent, no matter the division. Some of those small school kids go the the Lions game and more than hold their own.
Further, to use logic previously used on this site, shouldn't the big school always win the Lions game? They come from the bigger towns, and don't kids from the big town have unfair advantages over their small town counterparts? That was always the reason given why there should be no privates in Class B.

[MoSiouxFan]

Devils Lake 70
Four Winds 69

[balla45]

Might be arbitrary and getting off topic, but I'd say 18 a game in AA is more impressive than 24 a game in B. Those numbers would be similar when comparing 18 in A to 24 in B IMO.

Need way more context than this.

It is arbitrary and slightly off topic but still interesting.

I believe Wick leads the state in scoring right now at just a bit over 30 per game. I do not think he is the best pure scorer in ND, but I also do not think he struggles to do his thing if he is playing in AA. It might manifest differently because he will likely have more scorers on his team so his shot volume may go down.

Discounting 25% of statistics by dropping a class makes little sense to me. Typically going to have more blowouts and shorter games being in a lower class.

I like you and your opinions, but I 100% disagree that stats automatically will raise or inflate based on moving classes. I think it is very realistic that Deng Deng gets 27/12 playing in the current EDC or that Walker Braaten gets 29/10 playing in the current WDA.

[maddog1971]

Might be arbitrary and getting off topic, but I'd say 18 a game in AA is more impressive than 24 a game in B. Those numbers would be similar when comparing 18 in A to 24 in B IMO.

Need way more context than this.

It is arbitrary and slightly off topic but still interesting.

I believe Wick leads the state in scoring right now at just a bit over 30 per game. I do not think he is the best pure scorer in ND, but I also do not think he struggles to do his thing if he is playing in AA. It might manifest differently because he will likely have more scorers on his team so his shot volume may go down.

Discounting 25% of statistics by dropping a class makes little sense to me. Typically going to have more blowouts and shorter games being in a lower class.

I like you and your opinions, but I 100% disagree that stats automatically will raise or inflate based on moving classes. I think it is very realistic that Deng Deng gets 27/12 playing in the current EDC or that Walker Braaten gets 29/10 playing in the current WDA.

Ok maybe you are right... we will never know...Just curious to know what Deng Deng Scored against Devils Lake and Kindred.... Anyone know?

[balla45]

I believe he had 10 against Kindred. Not sure off the top of my head what he had against Devil’s Lake. I think I may know where you are going with and I am happy to play along.

[The Schwab]

Might be arbitrary and getting off topic, but I'd say 18 a game in AA is more impressive than 24 a game in B. Those numbers would be similar when comparing 18 in A to 24 in B IMO.

Need way more context than this.

It is arbitrary and slightly off topic but still interesting.

I believe Wick leads the state in scoring right now at just a bit over 30 per game. I do not think he is the best pure scorer in ND, but I also do not think he struggles to do his thing if he is playing in AA. It might manifest differently because he will likely have more scorers on his team so his shot volume may go down.

Discounting 25% of statistics by dropping a class makes little sense to me. Typically going to have more blowouts and shorter games being in a lower class.

I like you and your opinions, but I 100% disagree that stats automatically will raise or inflate based on moving classes. I think it is very realistic that Deng Deng gets 27/12 playing in the current EDC or that Walker Braaten gets 29/10 playing in the current WDA.

I think my thoughts on this are more in alignment with yours. My statement was probably in frustration to the statement that came off as if a stud athlete who plays class B was playing in AA or A they wouldn't put up those good numbers. Their numbers would more than likely be a little down due to the shot volume and being surrounded by more overall talent in most situations. When it comes to kids scoring, I shouldn't have used the words more impressive. I would have to look at shooting percentage, points per attempt etc.. to determine how impressed I was.

As someone who has been fortunate enough to coach some outstanding basketball players in the old class B division. I firmly believe that the best kids in B can play with anyone and put up similar numbers in any ND basketball level.

I took the 18 and 24 as they were posted in a previous post about "meaning more". I do feel that if an athlete is putting up 18 a game in AA they would be able to put up pretty big numbers in class B. I firmly believe that there are posters on this board that feel the athlete from WN would put up 10 points a game if he played in AA, which is completely false. Studs are studs no matter the class. Sorry for the confusion my post caused.

[balla45]

All good. I think so much of it is based off of roster composition and shot volume.

I still feel that if a player is super talented, they are essentially playing against other players who have no chance of guarding them, and their scoring success is pretty much determined by pace of play and shot volume.

[MoSiouxFan]

I believe he had 10 against Kindred. Not sure off the top of my head what he had against Devil’s Lake. I think I may know where you are going with and I am happy to play along.

He had 25 against DL.

[senditin]

I believe he had 10 against Kindred. Not sure off the top of my head what he had against Devil’s Lake. I think I may know where you are going with and I am happy to play along.

He had 25 against DL.

Deng had 28 vs DL the 1st meeting. I believe he had 14 vs Kindred. Wylee D had 13 in 1st FWM game and 10 last night according to Bigleigh.

[UncleRico]

Last night was my first time watching DL, I was impressed with their willingness to move the ball. It didn't appear that there was an emphasis on any one guy getting his points. I'm not sure if that is always the case or not, but i noticed it. Deng is a handful when he gets going downhill, which makes me wonder why he spends so much time doing other things but that is a whole other can of worms and frankly it's none of my concern.

[maddog1971]

All good. I think so much of it is based off of roster composition and shot volume.

I still feel that if a player is super talented, they are essentially playing against other players who have no chance of guarding them, and their scoring success is pretty much determined by pace of play and shot volume.

I am not a high volume shot guy... I don't like guys that have to get 20-25 shots a game... good or bad shots... they need to get them up.
My MVP are the kids that put up 8 one night and 14 boards and two nights later puts up 28 and 8 boards.. or assists.... who is more concerned about how the team looks and not himself. I know those kids don't win awards but they should.