End of year thoughts

[Flying Wallenda]

Some end of year thoughts - could go under other areas on the board but i'm most familiar with region I and II in the A division. Also familiar with the central part of the state in the B league to some extent. Some thoughts:

The AA tournament was stacked. In my mind, probably 3 teams could have won, but I think the top two teams with the most talent made the title game. Both Sheyenne and North are very well coached. Minot as well. Lots of talent on those teams with kids that will make noise collegiately regardless of sport they pick. I wonder how Devils Lake would have done in that tournament? I think they may have been in the winners bracket.....

On the flip side, one could definitely tell that the B wasn't as talented as previous years - to be expected with the shift of teams - same with the B all state team. Not trying to slam teams or kids, just an entire different horizon now. I think the best 3 teams were Westhope/NS/Ryan. However, I don't think any would have competed very well in the A division.

Again I think the best two teams made the championship in the A division. The east was clearly the power in the state with multiple teams (most notably Four Winds/Thompson) not in the state but likely 2 of the top 5 or 6 teams IN the state. I wonder if any thought has been put into seeding east and west to try to get the best teams advancing? I think we'll see a rematch in the state title game next year.

Finally, I saw a pic online of the region II all region team - WOW - that team was stacked with talent. Honestly I could have made a viable argument of 9 or 10 kids making all state out of that group. Loaded with talent, and a few kids who didn't even make the team that were very good. Put that group against any other 12 kids across the state and you'd have a really good game IMO. RANDOM THOUGHTS....

[The Schwab]

I agree with most of this post. I firmly believe Bowman was in the top 2 of Class B.

[BasketballMind]

What worries me the most for the B division teams is after a few years of playing primarily against each other, the quality of those teams will go down drastically. I believe most schools are trying to schedule within their division going forward. After 3-4 years of that, the gap between A and B is going to continue to grow.

[ndlionsfan]

What worries me the most for the B division teams is after a few years of playing primarily against each other, the quality of those teams will go down drastically. I believe most schools are trying to schedule within their division going forward. After 3-4 years of that, the gap between A and B is going to continue to grow.

The gap between most of the current A teams and the rest of class B was already there. It's just more distinct now that there are separate divisions, hence the need for those divisions. Only the top 2-3 teams of class B each season will reasonable be able to compete with class A, the same as the top few teams of class A would be able to compete in class AA. And those top few teams in both classes will change ever few years as well.

I don't care what level of basketball is "good" and what level is a little harder to watch. All I care is that the games are competitive within each division and there was drastically more balance this season with 3 classes.

[bk1990]

What worries me the most for the B division teams is after a few years of playing primarily against each other, the quality of those teams will go down drastically. I believe most schools are trying to schedule within their division going forward. After 3-4 years of that, the gap between A and B is going to continue to grow.

The gap between most of the current A teams and the rest of class B was already there. It's just more distinct now that there are separate divisions, hence the need for those divisions. Only the top 2-3 teams of class B each season will reasonable be able to compete with class A, the same as the top few teams of class A would be able to compete in class AA. And those top few teams in both classes will change ever few years as well.

I don't care what level of basketball is "good" and what level is a little harder to watch. All I care is that the games are competitive within each division and there was drastically more balance this season with 3 classes.

I agree, to me it has always been not a difference in talent, but a difference in depth. Take the best couple players on a top team in any division, they are as talented as the best couple of players in the other divisions. Braaten from Westhope is an good as any player in the state, but if they had to play a Kindred team that goes a solid 8-9 deep, that is a tall task
The Duffields could hang with the best two players from DL, but team wise, not deep enough. Same with Ryan tandem of Walz/Lundeen, using teams from the same town, put them against the top two from Minot High, just as good and talented, but the Magi go 9-10 deep off the bench, Ryan maybe went 6-7.
Talent doesn't care what division you are in, depth matters, that is why divisions are determined by school size
Mr. Basketball this year was from A, right in the middle and 3 finalists from B.

[ndlionsfan]

What worries me the most for the B division teams is after a few years of playing primarily against each other, the quality of those teams will go down drastically. I believe most schools are trying to schedule within their division going forward. After 3-4 years of that, the gap between A and B is going to continue to grow.

The gap between most of the current A teams and the rest of class B was already there. It's just more distinct now that there are separate divisions, hence the need for those divisions. Only the top 2-3 teams of class B each season will reasonable be able to compete with class A, the same as the top few teams of class A would be able to compete in class AA. And those top few teams in both classes will change ever few years as well.

I don't care what level of basketball is "good" and what level is a little harder to watch. All I care is that the games are competitive within each division and there was drastically more balance this season with 3 classes.

I agree, to me it has always been not a difference in talent, but a difference in depth. Take the best couple players on a top team in any division, they are as talented as the best couple of players in the other divisions.

Absolutely agree with this.

Another year end thought....I know we are criticize the NDHSAA and the 3 class or 2 class plans, but in my opinion they absolutely knocked it out of the park with the region setup and challenge games. Look at the excitement that stirred up in the post season and the opportunities it gave to many teams. Also nice to see district tournaments back in play in class B with 8-10 teams instead of 5-6.

Grafton gets upset in the semis but instead of their season being done, they have the chance to win too very tough games to get to state and still have a shot at the state championship. FWM is no doubt one of the top 4 teams in the entire state in A, but gets the short end of the stick the way the region plays out and doesn't make it to state.

Girls class B, Langdon goes into the region tournament #1 in state and doesn't make it. Lose in the region championship and then have to turn around less than 48 hours later to keep your season going. Not easy,, but at least they can still make it after a loss. Then you give some up and coming, young teams such as Benson County and Maple River the opportunity to play their way into the state tournament with some upsets is fun to watch as well.

[Thundersnow]

I generally agree with most of the end of year thoughts here, but wanted to put my own spin on it.

Instead of wondering how Devils Lake would've done in AA this year, I wonder how many great state tournaments and champions we missed out on in the last 20+ years by irresponsibly clinging to the old 2-class system?

I much preferred the Class B state matchups we got, with actual smalltown teams instead of getting a Class B winners bracket that would've likely included Kindred, Shiloh, Grafton and Beulah.

As for the quality of play, I agree that the overall quality was better in Class A than Class B this season and postseason. Like ndlionsfan said, I think this emphasized the need for 3 classes. I think and hope Class B will improve as the years go on, because more teams see the opportunity to succeed in a way that was simply impossible under the old 2-class system. Of course, I could be wrong. I heard from a South Dakotan that the smallest class there has had less talent than the other classes for quite some time now. I guess time will tell.

I love the new state qualifying games. It doesn't detract from the Regional Championship games at all. It exponentially increases the competitiveness in the Regional 3rd place games. It gives stronger regions a chance to prove their merit by winning. Watching the reactions of Class A teams like the Killdeer boys, Valley City boys and girls and South Prairie girls when they won their state qualifier was outstanding. The Class B state qualifiers were also entertaining and led to some surprising outcomes. Bottom line, it's still difficult and meaningful to make a state tournament.

I didn't care for the TV coverage, but it seems like that will never change. I don't understand why we can watch so many regular season games for free with announcers nowadays, but state tournament consolation games get put behind an expensive paywall with no announcers.

[BasketballMind]

The top teams in B will start playing more games with a running clock than we had in the 2-class system. There are less good teams, so the good teams that are left will have more games against inferior competition.

[ndlionsfan]

The top teams in B will start playing more games with a running clock than we had in the 2-class system. There are less good teams, so the good teams that are left will have more games against inferior competition.

I disagree. I saw much fewer games with running clock this past year in class B. If FWM had been in class B, they would have had 75% of their games with running clock. I think the gap is much closer for top teams in B versus bottom B teams.

[WalkingStick]

The top teams in B will start playing more games with a running clock than we had in the 2-class system. There are less good teams, so the good teams that are left will have more games against inferior competition.

I disagree. I saw much fewer games with running clock this past year in class B. If FWM had been in class B, they would have had 75% of their games with running clock. I think the gap is much closer for top teams in B versus bottom B teams.

I have these numbers at home on how many games made it to running clock. I'll get that posted here this weekend.

Top of D8 (W-N, BR) to the Bottom of D8 was 40-50 points difference...that was basically the top and a few of the bottom of the B division.

[BasketballMind]

The top teams in B will start playing more games with a running clock than we had in the 2-class system. There are less good teams, so the good teams that are left will have more games against inferior competition.

I disagree. I saw much fewer games with running clock this past year in class B. If FWM had been in class B, they would have had 75% of their games with running clock. I think the gap is much closer for top teams in B versus bottom B teams.

I have these numbers at home on how many games made it to running clock. I'll get that posted here this weekend.

Top of D8 (W-N, BR) to the Bottom of D8 was 40-50 points difference...that was basically the top and a few of the bottom of the B division.

Clarifiying, I am talking about in the future when the divisions are scheduling primarily against each other. That is already starting to happen with the old agreements running out and division A teams filling their schedule with Division A or out of state opponents as much as they can. The number of good teams to challenge each other prior to region tournaments is drying up, so those bottom teams will be closer to each other, but it isn't going to change when they play a team like Westhope, North Star, Bishop Ryan, etc. It will be that or the teams will not be as good due to not having to be to make it to state and the quality of teams will go down over time.

[Thundersnow]

"More games with a running clock than we had in the 2-class system" seems quite unlikely to me. There will always be some blowouts at every level. The only way to eliminate blowouts would be to create a 10-class system, and I doubt even that would work.

I think Kindred, Four Winds, Beulah, Shiloh would've had way more 30+ point wins than Westhope, Ryan, North Star and Bowman had this year. And under the 2-class system, we were getting increasingly more blowouts every year. Teams at the bottom of Class B have a much better chance of competing with the current top of Class B than they would against the current top teams of Class A who used to be in Class B. The postseason results in Class B illustrated to me just how evenly matched the new class was as a whole. Glen Ullin-Hebron goes from beating Bowman to getting eliminated in the District Tournament. There were tons of other upsets at Districts and Regionals, along with one-score games and overtimes.

WalkingStick, it would be great to see your stats on blowouts this year compared to recent history.

[WalkingStick]

BOYS BASKETBALL (Excluding Postseason Play)

There were 246 Class A vs. Class A Games Played
78 of those were running clock games (31.71%)

There were 91 Crossover Games Played
23 of those were running clock games (25.27%)

There were 627 Class B vs. Class B Games Played
161 of those were running clock games (25.68%)

Last year in Class B there were 1034 Games Played
257 of those were running clock games (24.85%)
87 of those running clock (RC) games were won by 2024 Class A Teams (33.85% of RC games)

[packers21]

BOYS BASKETBALL (Excluding Postseason Play)

There were 246 Class A vs. Class A Games Played
78 of those were running clock games (31.71%)

There were 91 Crossover Games Played
23 of those were running clock games (25.27%)

There were 627 Class B vs. Class B Games Played
161 of those were running clock games (25.68%)

Last year in Class B there were 1034 Games Played
257 of those were running clock games (24.85%)
87 of those running clock (RC) games were won by 2024 Class A Teams (33.85% of RC games)

Interesting

[WalkingStick]

BOYS BASKETBALL (Excluding Postseason Play)

There were 246 Class A vs. Class A Games Played
78 of those were running clock games (31.71%)

There were 91 Crossover Games Played
23 of those were running clock games (25.27%)

There were 627 Class B vs. Class B Games Played
161 of those were running clock games (25.68%)

Last year in Class B there were 1034 Games Played
257 of those were running clock games (24.85%)
87 of those running clock (RC) games were won by 2024 Class A Teams (33.85% of RC games)

GIRLS BASKETBALL (Excluding Postseason Play)
There were 240 Class A vs. Class A Games Played
59 of those were RC games (24.58%)

There were 115 Crossover Games Played
28 of those were RC games (24.35%)

There were 651 Class B vs. Class B Games Played
198 of those were RC games (30.41%)

Last year in Class B there were 973 Games Played
288 of those were RC games (29.60%)
81 of those RC gams were by 2024 Class A Teams (28.13% of RC games)...14 of those 81 were games played between two now Class A teams (45.16%)

[Thundersnow]

Interesting, those numbers surprise me a little bit, because it seemed to me like there were less blowouts in 23-24 than the previous 5-10 years. A few questions for you, WalkingStick:

1) Was a "running clock game" any game that ended with a 30+ point margin or any game that had a 30+ point margin at some point, regardless if it ended with a 25, 35 or 55 point difference? It wouldn't change your results much, I'm just interested in your methodology.

2) Do you have any data on average final point differential for all games this year and previous years for comparison?

3) Was there a specific reason you didn't include postseason play?

[Flying Wallenda]

What worries me the most for the B division teams is after a few years of playing primarily against each other, the quality of those teams will go down drastically. I believe most schools are trying to schedule within their division going forward. After 3-4 years of that, the gap between A and B is going to continue to grow.

The gap between most of the current A teams and the rest of class B was already there. It's just more distinct now that there are separate divisions, hence the need for those divisions. Only the top 2-3 teams of class B each season will reasonable be able to compete with class A, the same as the top few teams of class A would be able to compete in class AA. And those top few teams in both classes will change ever few years as well.

I don't care what level of basketball is "good" and what level is a little harder to watch. All I care is that the games are competitive within each division and there was drastically more balance this season with 3 classes.

I agree, to me it has always been not a difference in talent, but a difference in depth. Take the best couple players on a top team in any division, they are as talented as the best couple of players in the other divisions. Braaten from Westhope is an good as any player in the state, but if they had to play a Kindred team that goes a solid 8-9 deep, that is a tall task
The Duffields could hang with the best two players from DL, but team wise, not deep enough. Same with Ryan tandem of Walz/Lundeen, using teams from the same town, put them against the top two from Minot High, just as good and talented, but the Magi go 9-10 deep off the bench, Ryan maybe went 6-7.
Talent doesn't care what division you are in, depth matters, that is why divisions are determined by school size
Mr. Basketball this year was from A, right in the middle and 3 finalists from B.

Just because a kid is a Mr. BB candidate, an all state player, or a lions all star doesn't necessarily mean they were one of the best in the state. More so than ever it is apparent that the selections are based on a "quota" system....X number from each side of the state, X number from each division, etc...
Deng was unquestionably the best player in the state who was "eligible" for the award IMO. The young man from North who missed half the year probably wins it had he played the entire year.

[WalkingStick]

Interesting, those numbers surprise me a little bit, because it seemed to me like there were less blowouts in 23-24 than the previous 5-10 years. A few questions for you, WalkingStick:

1) Was a "running clock game" any game that ended with a 30+ point margin or any game that had a 30+ point margin at some point, regardless if it ended with a 25, 35 or 55 point difference? It wouldn't change your results much, I'm just interested in your methodology.

2) Do you have any data on average final point differential for all games this year and previous years for comparison?

3) Was there a specific reason you didn't include postseason play?

1) Any game that knowingly went over the 30 point differential plateau at the beginning or during the 4th quarter (I'm sure one or two may not have been reported to me as such but many people did let me know on the few games were an outcome actually ended under the 30 point differential).

2) I definitely can do that for 2023-2024, 2022-2023 and maybe 2021-2022.

3) Less blowouts in the postseason...there were some but not a lot.
I can do postseason as a separate 'entity', I guess...that didn't actually cross my mind when compiling this...tried to keep my mind focused on the regular season. I like doing the stats here so I'll get this figured out this weekend.

[maddog1971]

I thought the 3 Class system worked out great. The Class AA was exciting but it still takes away a little bit with so few teams in that division.

Class A was very exciting to watch all year. Some really good games but also some really bad blowout games. The bottom of the Class A teams... not good.

Class B.. I thought the tournament was very run to watch.. Good Story with the little guy having the game of his life. Fun.. but the quality of Basketball was not there at all. BUT that is why we have 3 classes now... so a kid like that can get on TV and play like that... if there was only two classes... no story... because they never make it out of districts.

Hated the coverage and hated the Fargo Dome. Hope they figure it out.

[WalkingStick]

Interesting, those numbers surprise me a little bit, because it seemed to me like there were less blowouts in 23-24 than the previous 5-10 years. A few questions for you, WalkingStick:

1) Was a "running clock game" any game that ended with a 30+ point margin or any game that had a 30+ point margin at some point, regardless if it ended with a 25, 35 or 55 point difference? It wouldn't change your results much, I'm just interested in your methodology.

2) Do you have any data on average final point differential for all games this year and previous years for comparison?

3) Was there a specific reason you didn't include postseason play?

Postseason Data
BOYS
2023-2024
Class A: 2 Running clock games over 45 possible games (4.44%)
Class B: 18 Running clock games over 137 possible games (13.14%)

2022-2023
Class B: 29 Running clock games over 146 possible games (19.86%)

GIRLS
2023-2024
Class A: 4 Running clock games over 45 possible games (8.89%)
Class B: 28 Running clock games over 140 possible games (20.00%)

2022-2023
Class B: 26 Running clock games over 144 possible games (18.06%)