Do we need a three class system?

[Bisonguy06]

DLB, Trinity, and Langdon went down in the semifinals. Of our final 16, 11 are small schools. At least three regions will produce small schools as champions, there is at least one small school in every regional championship game, and there are no private schools left in the running. North Dakota basketball functions just fine the way it is with two classes.

[InTheKnow]

DLB, Trinity, and Langdon went down in the semifinals. Of our final 16, 11 are small schools. At least three regions will produce small schools as champions, there is at least one small school in every regional championship game, and there are no private schools left in the running. North Dakota basketball functions just fine the way it is with two classes.

Since when have private schools been considered an "issue" with girls sports? The thought of considering Langdon a "BIG" school now is laughable as well. I will state again... YOU CAN NOT EQUATE GIRLS SPORTS WHEN TALKING ABOUT A 3 CLASS SYSTEM! The participation rates are so hit and miss even between sports in the same school that they can not be calculated in comparison to boys sports. Thats why NONE of the private schools are really a factor when it comes to girls sports. I can guarantee that a large percentage of boys attend private schools for sports reasons but I would guess you would be hard pressed to find half as many girls who attend private schools for sports related reasons. They are much more likely to just begin participating in a different activity. Any attempt to relate a 3 class system to Girls Basketball or Volleyball is just a way to try and dig for information to support a one sided view.

I am torn on the issue of a 3 class system. There are pros and cons for each and the decision to not even consider change could mean high school basketball could die off from the way we have known it even quicker as Co-ops will multiply because of trying to stay competitive in our current system.

Back to my point about Langdon being considered a big school. The following article was in the GF Herald in December. It clearly proves my point about girls sports and participation rates. They are too unpredictable and why you see girls sports co-oping much sooner then boys programs. Girls just are not as competitive and if you need further proof visit your local high school and watch PE Class. Sports just really are not that important to the majority of females compared to boys.

***************
Low numbers are following Andy DeLaBarre.

DeLaBarre took over as head football coach at Langdon High School in 2008, inheriting a program that had less than 24 players on the roster of the 11-man program.

Now DeLaBarre has added head girls basketball coach to his resume. And he enters the season with an eight-player roster, one of them being an eighth-grader. Langdon doesn’t have enough players to field a junior-varsity team, nor does it have enough players for a five-on-five practice scrimmage.

“It’s kind of crazy,’’ DeLaBarre said. “We had a few girls who decided to not play. A few others decided they wanted to try playing hockey. Maybe some wanted to work. There are girls in school who could be good basketball players who aren’t playing.’’

It was only a few years ago, in 2005, that Langdon won the Class B state championship. And the Cardinals have been regular qualifiers for the Region 4 tournament. Now, DeLaBarre estimates that he has less than 10 percent of the female student body in grades 9-12 in the school playing basketball.

“You’d think success would bring the numbers out year after year,’’ DeLaBarre said. “What I have to do is work the younger grades, trying to create the interest there. Building a basketball program starts with elementary school.’’

There are no seniors on the Cardinals’ roster. There are quality athletes.

McKenzie Hart, at 5-foot-8 the team’s tallest player, was the lone sophomore named to the Class B all-state volleyball team this fall. Julie Dinius won the 100 and the 200 at the state track meet last spring. Breanna Mack, Mercedes Stein and Shannon Overby all were regulars, as was Dinius, in the Region 4 runner-up volleyball team this fall.

“We have good basketball players,’’ DeLaBarre said. “We’ll still be competitive. The girls we have are playing well. They play smart basketball, and we have good athletes.’’

[Bisonguy06]

The job of the NDHSAA is to create a system where schools have a fair chance to compete. They cannot control participation in activities at the member schools.

You make good points, but you also seem to be saying that IF a school, even a very small school, can raise its participation rates, it will have a fair chance to compete in girls basketball. That's all anyone can ask for.

On the girls' side, the current system works. I look forward to analyzing the boys in a couple weeks.

[Indy5]

To me the topic of 3 classes with girls is not where the problem lies. My reasoning is that participation rates among girls in sports is so hit and miss enrollment rates mean nothing. The problem lies with the boys where the majority of co-ops are formed for competitive reasons and not because of lack of players to field a team of 15 in grades 9-12 which is usually the case among girls teams as you see countless more 8th grade varsity starters on the girls side compared to boys.

I agree with what you say but another reason you see more 8th grade girls on varsity than boys is because its easier to move up in girls than it is in boys. I have watched in one day, 8th girls, c squad, JV, and varsity. There is a decent difference between 8th grade and c squad. There was almost no difference between c squad and jv. There was a little bit of a difference between JV and varsity.

Now I have done the same with boys. There is a very big difference between 8th grade and c squad. There is a big difference between c squad and JV. There is a HUGE difference between JV and varsity.

When I speak of the difference, I was reffering to speed and physicality of the game. The skill level improves from each level in both boys and girls. I was just talking about how fast the game moves and how physical it is.

I think 8th grade girls can handle varsity basketball. (some of them.personality is a big factor) There are very few 8th grade boys that can handle varsity basketball.

[Bisonguy06]

Hey guys I totally agree that there are some different variables in play in girls basketball, but any new plan drawn up will apply to both the boys and the girls. Therefore, it's completely relevent to look at the girls class B landscape.

You can't just identify "problems" on the boys side and propose "solutions" to them without looking at how they'd affect the girls as well.

[eagle]

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
There is no need for a three class system unless you think your chilld or children in your school are failures if they do not make it to state. Not everyone can win, and if you don't it does not mean that your high school career was wasted. The purpose of HS sports is not only intended to win and be successful, it is to teach life lessons, teamwork, working for a common goal, and building character. If everyone needs a trophy or medal to prove that they played HS sports then the whole system is failed. If kids decide to not play for personal reasons, school enrollments are low, or numerous "unsuccessful" seasons are repeated in my opinion are just flat out excuses to my comments above.
Making it to state or having a winning tradition is something that is earned. If the system is changed will there be that thought in the back of whomever the state champions mind "are we really the state champs", or just the best of the mediocore schools with no way to prove your worth. If everything that you do in life is watered down and success is expected/given there would be no struggles or life lessons in the world.

[InTheKnow]

NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
There is no need for a three class system unless you think your chilld or children in your school are failures if they do not make it to state. Not everyone can win, and if you don't it does not mean that your high school career was wasted. The purpose of HS sports is not only intended to win and be successful, it is to teach life lessons, teamwork, working for a common goal, and building character. If everyone needs a trophy or medal to prove that they played HS sports then the whole system is failed. If kids decide to not play for personal reasons, school enrollments are low, or numerous "unsuccessful" seasons are repeated in my opinion are just flat out excuses to my comments above.
Making it to state or having a winning tradition is something that is earned. If the system is changed will there be that thought in the back of whomever the state champions mind "are we really the state champs", or just the best of the mediocore schools with no way to prove your worth. If everything that you do in life is watered down and success is expected/given there would be no struggles or life lessons in the world.

The only problem is the current system is eliminating opportunity to participate and learn the lessons you talked about. Every time there is a co-op what would have been a starting 5 for each team now becomes the 10 player varsity. What happens to the bench players from Varsity, they now go to JV. What happens to the bench on JV? They quit! Who are those bench players? Average Sophomores who may contribute on Varsity as Seniors but since they sit the bench behind a Junior player on JV they get bored and quit. I would guess that 50% of co-ops are formed for competitive reasons because the school cant compete with the considered bigger school. Thats why you see programs running a JV only schedule now more then ever in the hopes that a Varsity may return the following year. I applaud those schools for trying to keep their program going instead of just jumping ship and co-oping.

For an example there were 10 teams in District 4 in 1995. North Border (Pembina-Neche), Walhalla, Cavalier, Drayton, Park River, Tri-County (Edinburgh, Adams, Milton, Osnabrock), Midway, Minto, Fordville-Lankin, St-Thomas-Valley. The district didnt even include Grafton at the time. Now it is down to 6 including Grafton. North Border combined with Walhalla simply because they thought they could win a state tournament with boys which they did. It left them with over 30 kids out for basketball at the time. Now look at their program. Tri-County formed a co-op in the early 90s. They had more kids then anyone at the time with at least 30+ kids. They were successful right away but it killed the depth in their program as kids quit. One after another in the district has formed co-ops to stay competitive with Grafton who is by far the largest school in the district. One by one as they co-op they go from 30 kids to start the co-op to 15-20 in the matter of about 2-3 years. Add in the open enrollment and it has KILLED the district to what it is now. A 6 team, we have to stay competitive, co-op district of North Border, Valley-Edinburgh, Midway-Minto, Park River/Fordville/Lankin, Cavalier, and Grafton.

There are alot of unanswered questions that need to be determined before I jump on board with a 3 class system as well, but we are at the point where something needs to be done and done ASAP or class B basketball will COMPLETELY DIE! You look around the state and see all of these 6 team district tournaments with 2 byes. How crappy is that! You talk about watered down, all you have to do is win one game and you go to the regional. We need to find a way to add to the number of teams participating and not continue the decline with co-ops. At what enrollment break point do the co-ops begin to split up and go on their own again and give kids an opportunity to learn the life lessons you talked about. If a third class doesnt create more teams then it is useless and needs to stay the same. But just watch as class B basketball becomes an 8 District class in 10 years with about 50 teams and 1 "big" school in each district and a bunch of co-ops.

[ndlionsfan]

For an example there were 10 teams in District 4 in 1995. North Border (Pembina-Neche), Walhalla, Cavalier, Drayton, Park River, Tri-County (Edinburgh, Adams, Milton, Osnabrock), Midway, Minto, Fordville-Lankin, St-Thomas-Valley. The district didnt even include Grafton at the time. Now it is down to 6 including Grafton. North Border combined with Walhalla simply because they thought they could win a state tournament with boys which they did. It left them with over 30 kids out for basketball at the time. Now look at their program. Tri-County formed a co-op in the early 90s. They had more kids then anyone at the time with at least 30+ kids. They were successful right away but it killed the depth in their program as kids quit. One after another in the district has formed co-ops to stay competitive with Grafton who is by far the largest school in the district. One by one as they co-op they go from 30 kids to start the co-op to 15-20 in the matter of about 2-3 years. Add in the open enrollment and it has KILLED the district to what it is now. A 6 team, we have to stay competitive, co-op district of North Border, Valley-Edinburgh, Midway-Minto, Park River/Fordville/Lankin, Cavalier, and Grafton.

Wow, that is really interesting to know and something that hasn't been discussed much on here. Maybe the co-ops really are killing sports in ND more than one thinks by looking at it this way. I do agree with what you said about the 3 class system, if the board doesn't split up some of these co-ops and add more teams the 3 class system doesn't fix anything. That's why I'm for a 6man fball division, too. Maybe by adjusting the classes and being more strict with co-ops, participation will increase and things will be more competitive across the board. Who knows.

[Bisonguy06]

We are going to see more co-ops and fewer schools and teams regardless of the plan that is implemented. It is highly unlikely that a co-op would ever dissolve once it has formed.

[sportslover77]

We are going to see more co-ops and fewer schools and teams regardless of the plan that is implemented. It is highly unlikely that a co-op would ever dissolve once it has formed.

Not necessarily. A three class system may discourage or even break-up some co-ops as schools don't want to be moved up to the "middle" class to play larger schools. Co-ops are dissolving as we speak--Minnewauken-Leeds for one. Also, larger schools may not be as willing to take on schools that would put them over the "smaller" class maximum.

[The Schwab]

It has always been my opinion that co-ops are not a good thing. Co-ops "almost work", if you take a school with 20 kids out for basketball and co op with another team with 15 out for basketball (numbers 9-12) that will kill both programs. In my opinion the high school activities association (they have the final say in all Co-ops) needs to truly examine the situation, If the school absolultly needs to co op (have less than 7 out for basketball 9-12 with no hope of increasing enrollment) then let them co op. I was completly against my high school co oping, not because I didn't like the other town, but because we didn't need it.

[old#63]

Not to throw a bucket of water on all the nostalgia about how great things were 10 years ago before everybody decided to start co-oping, but I think dropping enrollment might have something to do with why schools have joined together as well. InTheKnow mentioned the make up of District 4 teams and all the co-oping that has been done in the last few years. I checked the total enrollment of the current District 4 schools and how it has changed in the last 10 years. In 1999, total K-12 enrollment of all the schools in District 4 was 4537 kids, and in 2009 it is down to 3086. That's a drop of 1500 kids in the last 10 years.

[ndlionsfan]

But at the same time, schools/teams like Drayton/St Thomas, Walhalla, North Border, Midway, and Minto should all still be able to field teams based on their enrollments. There are many many schools/teams with smaller enrollments that are still fielding teams across the state. Does a school the size of Grafton make these schools look at trying to compete by co-oping? I'm thinking so.

[old#63]

But at the same time, schools/teams like Drayton/St Thomas, Walhalla, North Border, Midway, and Minto should all still be able to field teams based on their enrollments. There are many many schools/teams with smaller enrollments that are still fielding teams across the state. Does a school the size of Grafton make these schools look at trying to compete by co-oping? I'm thinking so.

Oh, I'm not going to disagree with you that needing to compete isn't part of it. Absolutely. Programs die if they aren't competative. But, North Border is one district, consisting of Pembina, Neche, and Walhalla, so they are one district and one team. As for the others, D/ST combined, Midway, and Minto all have about 70 kids in 9-12. Half boys and half girls means 35 kids or so to pick from. Could they each come up with a ball team?? Ya, maybe. Could they field an A squad and a B sqaud? I doubt it. You end up with 8th graders and freshmen playing varsity. Seems to work for girls, but not so well for boys.

[ndlionsfan]

Lewis and Clark is one district, but fields two teams....Berthold and North Shore/Plaza. DP competed as three separate teams for 4-5 years before going to one high school. MLS and TGU both fielded two teams after consolidating until going to one. Even tho NB is one district they do still have two separate high schools and could do this as well based on their current enrollments at each school. You are right in that those other teams would have around 70 kids in high school, but if you look at enrollments in the central and western parts of the state there are many teams with the same enrollments that are still fielding JV and varsity squads in both boys and girls (boys have better numbers than girls in most cases). Midkota, Maddock, Wells County, Burke County, Powers Lake, Ray, Westhope/Newburg, Max, Underwood, TLM, PBK, CP, SZ, NE, Flasher, Trenton, Trinity Christian, Our Redeemers, and I could keep going. I'm sure some of these towns are looking at co-ops in the future and most definitely have not been competitive in recent years, but they are still fielding teams and allowing more kids to participate in the sport. If you can get 15 kids out, you can have two teams.

[old#63]

I guess I wasn't aware of any Class B's that had done more than one team in a district. NB has about 140 in high school, so that would put them at 60 or 70 per building. If they had two teams, they would be in the same scope as D/ST, Midway, Minto, and Valley/Edinburg's new district as well. 60 to 80 kids per high school. Maybe for a while you can get 15 kids out to make 2 teams. That's about 40% of your schools population out for basketball. But what if for a couple years you drop down to 30%?? Only 9 kids to work with. Sorry, no more B squad, and your program is in trouble. That's what has happened and that's why we have seen the co-ops formed. Also, keep in mind that a lot of boys from Grafton, PR, Minto, and Drayton play hockey for Grafton as well, so that takes away from your boys teams.

[NDplayin]

I know this is a sports blog. All of us who post here are high school sports fans and seem to pay pretty close attention to them. However, I think a few of us allow our passion for high school sports to cloud our recognition of other issues around us.

I don’t like seeing more co-ops either. I think having a high school sports team is very important to a small-town’s pride and identity. I especially don’t like the extra travel associated with co-ops as it takes precious hours out of busy student athletes’ days and, in turn, often discourages some students from participating. I would prefer it if co-ops were never necessary.

Truthfully, being competitive with bigger schools is not the major factor in any co-op. It may have some tiny, minor influence, but it is a long, long ways from justifying three classes. The rural areas of North Dakota are depopulating and depopulating fast, and that has an impact on our high schools sports; namely in the number of teams we have competing. Many rural schools are mere shells of their former selves in terms of enrollment, and several have completely closed down. For us to talk about three classes intelligently, we must recognize that the depopulation of rural North Dakota is the reason we see increasing co-ops and fewer Class B teams than 20 years ago… not the level of competition.

While we are talking about how depopulation has changed the landscape of Class B basketball, let’s talk about what hasn’t changed. 20 years ago there were rural schools of 60 students, and those schools competed with schools of 300 students. Twenty years ago, the small Bs competed with the big Bs. Today, the small Bs are more than capable of competing with the big Bs, as evidence on the court indicates.

Furthermore, adding another class will not prevent the rapid co-oping we are seeing. It will have almost no affect on it at all. A third class would slow down co-ops about as much as a pheasant crossing the highway slows down a semi-truck. Look at the states around us. South Dakota has 3 basketball classes, Montana has 4. Both states are seeing their rural schools co-op at record rates. A three class system does not solve depopulation; therefore, it doesn’t stop co-ops.

The competitive balance in North Dakota’s two class system is very even just the way it is. Leave it alone.

[Bisonguy06]

Central Cass, Thompson, Kidder County, Carrington, Standing Rock, Kenmare, Beach, and Stanley.

Five small schools and three big ones (Central Cass, Carrington, and Standing Rock).

The 2009 champs from Kidder County are back to defend their title, and the #1 ranked undefeated Beach Bucs are the favorites. These are relatively small schools.

Class B doesn't need fixing on the girls side.

[Flying Wallenda]

Central Cass, Thompson, Kidder County, Carrington, Standing Rock, Kenmare, Beach, and Stanley.

Five small schools and three big ones (Central Cass, Carrington, and Standing Rock).

The 2009 champs from Kidder County are back to defend their title, and the #1 ranked undefeated Beach Bucs are the favorites. These are relatively small schools.

Class B doesn't need fixing on the girls side.

You've said this about 10 times but I think my definition of "small class b school' differs from yours. Stanley at 420 kids and Thompson at 410 don't seem to me to be "small" class b schools. Not sure of Standing Rock or Kidder county's enrollment. Beach and Kenmare at 290 aren't huge schools, but aren't tiny either. That being said, I'm not in favor of a 3 class plan.

[ndlionsfan]

I guess I wasn't aware of any Class B's that had done more than one team in a district. NB has about 140 in high school, so that would put them at 60 or 70 per building. If they had two teams, they would be in the same scope as D/ST, Midway, Minto, and Valley/Edinburg's new district as well. 60 to 80 kids per high school. Maybe for a while you can get 15 kids out to make 2 teams. That's about 40% of your schools population out for basketball. But what if for a couple years you drop down to 30%?? Only 9 kids to work with. Sorry, no more B squad, and your program is in trouble. That's what has happened and that's why we have seen the co-ops formed. Also, keep in mind that a lot of boys from Grafton, PR, Minto, and Drayton play hockey for Grafton as well, so that takes away from your boys teams.

When I was in high school 10+ years ago we never had more than an enrollment of 75, but yet we had close to 30 boys out every single year and ran a full schedule for A,B, and C squads. Smaller towns around us were still able to field three teams as well. I think its more of a participation problem than an enrollment problem right now.

[ndlionsfan]

Central Cass, Thompson, Kidder County, Carrington, Standing Rock, Kenmare, Beach, and Stanley.

Five small schools and three big ones (Central Cass, Carrington, and Standing Rock).

The 2009 champs from Kidder County are back to defend their title, and the #1 ranked undefeated Beach Bucs are the favorites. These are relatively small schools.

Class B doesn't need fixing on the girls side.

You've said this about 10 times but I think my definition of "small class b school' differs from yours. Stanley at 420 kids and Thompson at 410 don't seem to me to be "small" class b schools. Not sure of Standing Rock or Kidder county's enrollment. Beach and Kenmare at 290 aren't huge schools, but aren't tiny either. That being said, I'm not in favor of a 3 class plan.

I kind of agree with you, too. While under the 3 class proposal a lot of these schools fall in the lower class, but a small school to me has a total enrollment under 200 with 10-15 kids in a grade.

[Bisonguy06]

All along I have defined a "small" class B school as any school that would play in the bottom class in a 3 class plan.

We can argue about what is "small, medium, or big" all day long, but that doesn't serve any purpose. This thread is about 2 classes of basketball versus 3. Many of you would take the current class B and break it into two groups even though the recent results don't support this at all.

[InTheKnow]

Central Cass, Thompson, Kidder County, Carrington, Standing Rock, Kenmare, Beach, and Stanley.

Five small schools and three big ones (Central Cass, Carrington, and Standing Rock).

The 2009 champs from Kidder County are back to defend their title, and the #1 ranked undefeated Beach Bucs are the favorites. These are relatively small schools.

Class B doesn't need fixing on the girls side.

Relatively small schools? Really!?!?!?! What enrollment numbers are you looking at?

Enrollment 9-12....
Kidder County 139
Beach 136
Thompson 131
Stanley 114
Kenmare 85

There are 55 schools with enrollments under 100, but you consider Kidder County a relatively small school? If a 3 class proposal went through to include the largest 32 Class B enrollments there would likely be 2 co-ops split (Hatton-Northwood and Midway-Minto) since they have equal enrollments of around 70 per school which would put Kidder County into that higher class since they are the largest school left. The only small school I see on that list going to state is Kenmare.

57 Schools of 100 + students- 7 going to state.
55 Schools of under 100 students- 1 going to state.

Maybe we found our real cut off point on what SHOULD be proposed. It will be interesting to see what happens with the boys in relation to 100 students. Currently only 3 teams out of 14 in the poll with enrollments under 100.

[Bisonguy06]

I have never seen a 3 class plan proposed that would put any of these schools in the middle class. And it's quite a stretch to assume that co-ops would dissolve if a 3 class plan goes through. Once you form a co-op and buy new uniforms and apparel and re-paint the gym, there's no turning back.

Beach plays 9 man football. Stanley has a 9 man enrollment and opts up. These are not big schools.

[InTheKnow]

Those schools have not repainted their gyms. Midway and Minto field their own volleyball teams even. The reason I listed those 2 co-ops is because based on enrollments and how both schools have handled their co-ops and why they co-oped in the first place I can see them EASILY splitting back if there was a smaller class.

Midway for instance has already gone through a split to go on their own in the last 10 years when girls basketball used to be co-oped with Fordville-Lankin when both eventually had enough kids to play on their own. Funny thing was the year they split they ended up playing each other for the district title and finished 2nd and 3rd respectively in the region. Had they remained co-oped they would have been the clear cut favorite to win the region but they split for all the right reasons. If the schools keep their name identity in the co-op it is clear they feel they are still relevant. If they dissolve basically into a name then you are right there is no turning back. I wouldnt be surprised if North Border also split back into Walhalla and North Border based on how far they have to travel for the co-op if another option is available.

I cant speak for the rest of the state involving co-ops but I do know the NE part of the state very well and know the people who make up those communities and their administration and coaches.