Class B versus Class A

[EDC]

Did they end up winning their division in Wahpeton?

It would be fun to watch that group of girls get to play a whole season together! 

Yes they won.  The ECI team gave them a game though.  The ECI team was more physical but the Class B girls had more talent.  Was a little hard on the older gillett on more previous post but i hold her to a higher standard going to UND.  She looks very athletic.  Also on that team was Jess Archeago from Fargo North and Jackie Mitchell from I think Hope/Page.   It was fun to finally see some of the girls that have been mentioned on this site.

[fbinnd]

Define "competitive".  Competitive as in:  This one year or the last two years, during our run, we could have given the Class A schools a game?  Or, competitive as in:  Year after year we would compete with the Class A schools?

If the definition in the latter, the answer is none.  No Class B schools would be competitive year after year with the Class A schools.  Beating Valley City, Belcourt, St. Mary's and Wahpeton is not competitive with Class A, as those 4 schools are not competitive in Class A. 

As far as this Bottineau business, this year they would have been a WDA school.  With Mandan, Bismarck Centrury, and Bismarck High already in that league, Bottineau would have been competing for the 4th spot at state.  That's barely competitive for a team that is obviously on a run and the king of the Class B hill. 

So, year after year:  none.  This year, arguably, none, and arguably, Bottineau would have been mediocre.

And remember, Class A looked a lot different when Bottineau was competitive.  They had more kids and the Fargo South's of the world had less.  And the North Star conference certainly didn't hurt.  Add the shot clock, the rhythm of the new "halves" system, and increased athleticism in the average athlete to wear a Class A uniform, along with the long road trips, and more and more chips get thrown on the table against Bottineau.

[Biff]

Bottineau would have beaten every Class A team the last two years (come tournament time) except for Mandan.  Bottineau Girls Basketball is the futue dynasty girls basketball program.

[rep]

Bottineau would have beaten every Class A team the last two years (come tournament time) except for Mandan.  Bottineau Girls Basketball is the futue dynasty girls basketball program.

except for that whole needing a last-second shot to beat steele in the opening round...they could have just as easily been playing saturday afternoon this year as playing saturday night.

[fbinnd]

Delusional.  Bottineau would have been soundly defeated by Fargo South, Fargo Shanley, Devils Lake, Mandan, Bismarck Century, and Bismarck High.  And those are just the ones I can remember.  Could throw a West Fargo and a Dickinson in there.

[nd_sports_fan]

There is no way any class B team can compete with any class A teams, not even Bottineau. Class A teams have the luxury of picking a team out of a large number of students compared to class B teams. Class B teams have take what they get, not that their is anything wrong with that, but thats just the way it is.

[EDC]

Maybe we should expand this topic to include which PLAYERS in class B would START in Class A.  Which Class B players do you think would have started at a Bismarck, Century, Mandan, Jamestown, Devils Lake, South or Shanley this year or next.  Name the school, position and height.

[g.f.basketball]

Not true.  Bottineau would absolutely compete in Class "A" girl's basketball.  Look at Grafton in hockey, a high school slightly smaller than Bottineau (295 to 284 in 2006).  Grafton competes year in and year out in Class "A" hockey, usually making it to state.  They have many fewer students to choose from than does Minot High and Fargo South, but they still are better than Minot pretty much every year. 

 The same holds true for Bottineau.  Bottineau competed in Class "A" basketball for many years.  Finn posted an argument about how Class "A" basketball has gotten better since Bottineau left, and how Bottineau has lost students.  The fact is,  Bottineau's program is much improved from the days when they were in Class "A".  Secondly, every Class "A" high school in this state, with the exception of Fargo South, Mandan, West Fargo, Bismarck High, Belcourt, and Bismarck Century have all lost kids along with Bottineau.  The cutoff limit for Class "A" is 322 students.  Bottineau has probably lost fewer students than have other Class "A" schools (spare me the percentage arguments). 

Next, Bottineau's own Class "A" hockey team was within a game of the state tournament this year and hockey is far from Bottineau's best sport.  Bottineau would be the Grafton of girl's basketball.  To my knowledge, girl's basketball is the only sport Bottineau offers for girls in the winter.  It is their premier sport, similar to Grafton which does not have a good boy's basektball team.  It should also be noted that Grafton went to the State "A" girls basketball tournament in 2003- their last year in "A".  They have not been to a State "B" tournament.   Next, let's look at track.  Bottineau would have finished fifth last year in the State Class "A" track meet, finishing behind Minot, South, Bismarck, and I believe Century.   Track is a total numbers sport.   The fact is, it's the arrogance of certain Class "A" fans that limits an open and honest discussion on this issue and gives the rest of us "A" fans a bad name.  The fact is Bottineau's program would have competed every year since joining the "B" ranks.  Their program has not varied significantly from year to year.  I do not believe they have lost more than six games in a season since turning Class "B".  They still almost have as many state apperances as my own GF Central as well!  I'm not syaing they would make it to state every year, but they would every two or three years.  Numbers do make a difference, but schools like Bottineau and Grafton show they don't mean everything.  Bottineau would do well in "A".  

[fbinnd]

Bottineau would be average in A with their best team.  Your hockey argument is rediculous.  First, it's Grafton-Park River.  Count another 100 kids on the enrollment, which makes their enrollment larger than Bottineau by 1/3.  Second, hockey is a niche sport, competing with boys basketball, and wrestling for athletes.  Girls basketball competes with nothing.  Grand Forks has consolidated Red River, Central, EGF, and Sacred Heart just to put one gymnastics team together.  There's 4 GBB teams in that mix.  That's the difference in participation.

Every year, the cry goes up that whoever is the B top dog, they could compete with A.  Mandan would destroy Bottineau.  So would Century, Bismarck High, South, Shanley, Devils Lake.  That barely puts Bottineau at the state tournament.  heck, even Jamestown, with less than a winning record, would have the athletes to hold their own against Bottineau.

[demonfan74]

Yeah, bottineau wouldn't have a chance. 

[cdub1]

last year bottineau would have had a CHANCE to go to state in the east this year i think they would have the talent to go to state in class a because of knife transferring there and the returning talent they already have but this is a one time thing

[Tu-Big]

Yeah I believe you could have taken Dickinson Trinity(Class B??) and have competed against any class A team the past few years...but other than that, no I don't believe you could get more than 2 or 3 teams girls or boys that could compete with more than the bottom 2 or 3 class A teams....Girls maybe a little different, but not too much in my opinion....New Salem girls were ranked #1 and I don't think they would match up with any of the teams in Class A very well at all.

Boys.....Trinity wouldn't have had a prayer(ironic, isn't it?)........ sorry..... took them WAY too long to setup a play.... Shot Clock would have killed them!!!  The team was a team that had to setup a play and pull other teams out of a zone...... and Glasser would have been dogged by the best..... Kick, Dressler, and others!

But this is a girls and how often did the girls take state?  I don't remember........

Trinity wouldnt compete that well in CLASS B if they had a shot clock, they just wear you down and get layups, nothing wrong with it i guess if you're winning, but its pretty dull to watch.

[teamball]

I know this a girls class b site but Trinity's Boy's team that won state 2 years ago would have been better with a shot clock. They were the best defensive team in Class B without a shot clock. Think how good that defense would be if they know they only have to play D for 35 seconds. They would have forced the other teams worst shooters into shooting to beat the shot clock if they got a shot off at all.

On offense you would have had to chase Ernst through screens all day which means you would have switch. As soon as you switch Smith or Steiner would have a hugh mismatch and thats where the ball would go. If you don't switch Ernst would have killed you off the catch and shoot. Not to mention all 5 starters could shoot the 15 footer very well.

Good teams will do better with a shot clock, be careful what you wish for. 

[g.f.basketball]

I question whether you've read the evidence provided on this blog.  Bottineau would have been very competitive in "A" every year since they left Class "A".  As for numbers, the sport where numbers matters most is track.  Bottineau would have finished 5th last year in the State "A" track meet.  just recently they did well in the Minot High Invite finishing 5th behind Minot High who took first place with 188 team points, followed by Bismarck Century (113.5), Dickinson High (109.5), Mandan (89) and Bottineau (74).  Bottineau won three events.  Also, explain to me why Grafton hasn't been to the State "B" since leaving the EDC in 2003.  They made it to the State "A" their last year in "A" ball, but haven't been that competitive in "B".  Bottineau would obviously be competitive year in and year in out in girls basketball (Class "A").  The numbers don't lie (see rest of the blog). They obviously have plenty of "A" girls' athletes.   I'm sure they would've dominated Central and Red River this year.

[EDC]

Why did Bottineau go Class B?  Sounds like they should be Class A in girls bb.  How did their other sports go including the boys?

Class B needs to get a shot clock to make the games more interesting.  This would probably make it harder for the Class B schools to compete against Class A though.

 

[fbinnd]

Their last year of A ball, they were in the North Star, a conference built for teams like Bottineau.  They didn't have to qualify through Bismarck, Century, Minot, and Mandan.  They had to qualify through Belcourt, Rugby, Carrington, Devils Lake, VC, and so on. 

And track is worthless as a comparison to basketball.  One kid can win a track meet for a B school.  Benson County won the thing two years ago, and all they had were a pair of distance runners who won all the distance events, usually both finishing in the top 3 or 4, if not sweeping the event, and then did well in the distance relays.  You can't duplicate track success on the basketball floor.  If Track were a logical comparison, Carrington should have won 8 basketball titles in a row.  I don't think they ever even qualified for state during their track run.

Bottineau would have had a VERY slim chance to get to state this past year, and I feel pretty confident in saying that they would have finished ahead of a scant few in the WDA.  Bismarck, Century, Mandan, and Jamestown would have all been better.

[g.f.basketball]

Bottineau probably dropped to Class "B" because their boys' programs were not competitive (with the exception of hockey which is still Class "A").  Their girls' programs are another story.  Their girls' track and basketball programs would be competitve year in and year out.  I really don't know anything about their other girls' programs.  You can't stay Class "A" for the sake of two programs.  Their girls' basketball team would have been to the State "A" six or seven times in the 15 years or so since they left CLass "A". 

I'm impressed someone on here (FINN) actually remembers the old North Star Conference.  However, I do not believe Carrington was ever in the North Star.  I think it was Bottineau, Belcourt, Devils Lake, Valley City, Grafton, and Minot Ryan.  Bottineau played in the NorthWest conference against Minot High, Williston, etc... and went to state against those teams as well, prior to their entry into the North Star. 

I would have put the 2006 Bottineau team in the semi-final round of the State "A".  This last year's team would have finished third or fourth in the EDC and third in the WDA.  They would not have lost to Jamestown whom barely beat St. Mary's and even lost to Belcourt.  Bottineau would have soundly defeated the Blue Jays.   

[g.f.basketball]

As for Fbinn's comparison to track, one or two athletes could win the State "B" track meet.  I merely made that argument to refute the numbers argument posed earlier on this thread.  In Class "A" track one or two athletes will hardly win it for you.  Minot had well over 100 points last year. Thus, Bottineau competes well in a numbers dominated Class "A" sport.  Moreover, in ND Class "A" girls' basketball, a team only needs 6 or 7 good players to be competitive.  Bottineau has more than that number.  It seems as though they have a bench of about 5 deep year in and year out.  In my opinion, they would still be an excellent Class "A" girls' basketball team as their program seems to keep getting better and better.

[fbinnd]

I'll just respectfully disagree.  There are 5 athletes on the floor at a time, and the quality of the depth and ability of Class A schools would wear out the best B schools, even Bottineau.  Jamestown may have struggled through the regular season, but they also beat Fargo South, proving that they present almost anyone with matchup problems.

Bottineau would have struggled to make the State A field this past season.  I'm not saying at absolutely, positively for sure they would not have made it, but they would have been in a state qualifying game against someone pretty dang tough.  Just looking at the way the tournament played out this year in the WDA:

First, it is not feasible that Bottineau would have been a top three seed.  Mandan, Bismarck, and Century were the top 3 seeds.  During the regular season, Bottineau loses both to Mandan, and 3 of 4 to the other teams.  That puts them with 5 losses in the league.  Worst record of those three teams was 16-3.  Bottineau would be the 4 seed in the WDA (and that is an at best scenario)

As the 4, they draw Dickinson in round one, who is 11-8, and a tough matchup.  Dickinson upset Minot in round one.  But lets assume Bottineau wins.  They get Mandan, who will beat them soundly.  That will put them in a state qualifying game against Jamestown, who upset Dickinson, went to state, and then upset Fargo South in Round 1, proving they were playing their best basketball at the end.  My money is on Jamestown in that matchup. 

Based on the strength in the WDA, I don't see Bottineau getting in.  Their best shot would have been in the EDC, where the 4-5 matchup had a couple of 9-10 teams.  The WDA doesn't let Bottineau in this year.

[EDC]

Nice post [user=3113]fbinnd[/user] and I agree with you.  I think the only chance Bottineau had to get into the State A tournament this last year would have been 4th in the EDC.  And even Red River was coming on late in the year and I don't know who would have won if they had played.

Is Bottineau the only "B" team that people think had a chance to make it to the "A" tournament this last year?


 

[fbinnd]

I think you'd have to say that, EDC.  The reason:  Bottineau was the best girls team out there this year in the B world.  Any other really good B team would face the same situation:  Extremely tough in the West, and awfully tough in the east. 

I'm not sure it matters which B team we talk about.  I think Bottineau not making the A is more about the A teams than Bottineau, or any other B team we'd put up there.

[EDC]

Who are the Class B girls playing ECI this summer to watch?  Where are Bottineau girls playing - which team?  Do they do team camps or AAU?

http://www.eciyouth.org

[EDC]

Saw Shauna Knife play.  She can jump very well (touch the rim?) and is a very good all around player.  Very impressed.  Would be at least a top five player in the EDC.  I don't know how much depth Bottineau has but there would be a very good chance that they would finish near the top in the EDC. 

[EastGuruWannabe]

OK - here's my humble opinion - the top players in Class B are pretty much the same caliber as the top players in Class A, with an exception every couple years, for example Jessica Kielpinski this year or say Katie Lorenz a few years ago for the B's.  Thats why the All-Star games are usually pretty competitive.  However, it is the depth of the Class A schools that would make it nearly impossible for the B's to compete year in and year out.  Players 6-9 on most Class A schools would most likely be starters for the B's.  Yes, if a B team had a stud or 2 the games would be close, but eventually the depth of the A's would wear her out.  So it isn't that the best B players aren't as good as the best A players, its just that the A's overall teams are generally better than the B's.

[Watcher 007]

OK - here's my humble opinion - the top players in Class B are pretty much the same caliber as the top players in Class A, with an exception every couple years, for example Jessica Kielpinski this year or say Katie Lorenz a few years ago for the B's.  Thats why the All-Star games are usually pretty competitive.  However, it is the depth of the Class A schools that would make it nearly impossible for the B's to compete year in and year out.  Players 6-9 on most Class A schools would most likely be starters for the B's.  Yes, if a B team had a stud or 2 the games would be close, but eventually the depth of the A's would wear her out.  So it isn't that the best B players aren't as good as the best A players, its just that the A's overall teams are generally better than the B's.

Very well put. Totally agree with that statement. Someone know a little about basketball & the way things really are..