66-6

Class B Girls
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:44 pm

Coach : girls the other team can't score. We will not defend and let them shoot open perimeter jump shots.

Players : no. We are not going to allow the other team easy opportunities to score.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:28 pm

Coach: we're going to work on some things. I want a 23 matchup, force the low percentage outside shot. Give nothing inside. Run the 8-second high low when we have the ball. Take the press off.

Players: yes sir.

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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:00 pm

heimer wrote:They scored less than 60 points.

They didn't score 66.

They didn't score 85.

I never advocate letting a team score for mercy. You can't control whether they have shooters that can hit shots anyway. But you can control how your offense plays, and you can play zone.

It really isn't that hard.

Thompson and Park River showed how to control a game. Park River called the press off and didn't score 60. Thompson didn't score 60. Watford city scored 85, and you want to make this an apples to apples comparison.

Weak.

And Nudell can break the record or not, but it's worth more that programs survive than her finding her name on a wall. She's been starting since 7th grade, and I'm assuming the person whose record she's attempting break (BTW, who is that? Schneekloth? Just wondering) didn't start in seventh grade. Anyone playing today that breaks a record should have an asterisk by it anyway. Girls basketball isn't even close to what it used to be.

Minot Ryan best ever last year? Katie Richards beats that team with Cari Burchill and three pick-up players. Best my a$$. It's amazing how much hype basketball fans in North Dakota will buy into.

Hope-Page never went to state with Richards. So you're saying that multiple teams for multiple years were better than Ryan's team last year? Get real. I know your not but I'd swear you were Richards dad. Not disagreeing that she was a stud though.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Hinsa » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:09 am

I've been tracking the threads on this topic with more than a casual interest. I just want to make sure one thing is understood very clearly.

My home team has hit a year where the perfect storm came together - zero experience returning, good kids and good athletes but not much basketball smarts yet, poor shooters, etc. Our team is on the down side of scores like you mention in these threads. They are learning but just cannot compete against the elite teams they have opened the season with.

I have been at each of these losses and one thing MUST be understood: at no time did I ever feel that the winning coach was running up the score. Substitutions were liberal, presses were quickly called off if they pressed at all, teams that play man defense almost exclusively went to a zone so they could work on that, and we didn't feel like the other teams were treating us as charity cases. They beat us with class, our team learned from it, and everyone went home feeling like they at least got something out of the game.

These coaches, out of respect for what our teams have been and what they will become again, demonstrated how you can win by 40 or 50 or more and do it with class. We need more of these types of individuals leading our kids.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:38 am

heimer wrote:Coach: we're going to work on some things. I want a 23 matchup, force the low percentage outside shot. Give nothing inside. Run the 8-second high low when we have the ball. Take the press off.

Players: yes sir.

A prime rib won't sell if you serve it in a dirty ash tray. A hamburger will sell when on a kaiser roll with three sauces and garlic mashed.


I was referring to your comment that "allowing a 3 point shot" "is not letting a team score", as allowing a team to shoot uncontested shots is allowing a team to score.

I enjoy your analogy. A stupid idea will be sold to the players if presented in an intelligent way.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:46 am

Balla, I'm actually starting to legitimately wonder about you. You think being up by 20 and giving up a low-percentage shot is a stupid idea?

I shouldn't be surprised. I'm starting to think everyone west of 281 has high school athletics on a pedestal, and the only thing that matters to a kid while they are in school. If you've parented your kids, or coaches your kids, to believe that winning by as much as you can all the time, with no regard to the integrity of the game or sportsmanship, is all that matters, you've completely missed the point.

Balla, that's you, and I weep for your children.

Wallenda, girls basketball was INFINITELY better in the mid 90s than it is now. One team kept Hope-Page from the state tournament. And the Munds would beat Minot Ryan also. I'm starting to think you're a dad from Minot, and you have to be to believe the spew of them being the GOAT.

Hinsa, do the math. 40-50 is not 60-70. The scores were 85-15 and 66-6. You can't win with class at 85-15. It's impossible. 66-6 is only slightly possible.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:02 am

heimer wrote:Balla, I'm actually starting to legitimately wonder about you. You think being up by 20 and giving up a low-percentage shot is a stupid idea?

I shouldn't be surprised. I'm starting to think everyone west of 281 has high school athletics on a pedestal, and the only thing that matters to a kid while they are in school. If you've parented your kids, or coaches your kids, to believe that winning by as much as you can all the time, with no regard to the integrity of the game or sportsmanship, is all that matters, you've completely missed the point.

Balla, that's you, and I weep for your children.

Wallenda, girls basketball was INFINITELY better in the mid 90s than it is now. One team kept Hope-Page from the state tournament. And the Munds would beat Minot Ryan also. I'm starting to think you're a dad from Minot, and you have to be to believe the spew of them being the GOAT.

Hinsa, do the math. 40-50 is not 60-70. The scores were 85-15 and 66-6. You can't win with class at 85-15. It's impossible. 66-6 is only slightly possible.

Nope, live on the east coast of ND. Grew up in the 90's. Saw all the games. Heck, my HS girls BB team won a state title one year (Class B). And I don't think and have never said that Minot Ryan was the greatest of all time. But that you keep up with this "Katie Richards Hope-Page team would roll everyone" mantra is laughable.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:17 am

heimer wrote:Balla, I'm actually starting to legitimately wonder about you. You think being up by 20 and giving up a low-percentage shot is a stupid idea?

I shouldn't be surprised. I'm starting to think everyone west of 281 has high school athletics on a pedestal, and the only thing that matters to a kid while they are in school. If you've parented your kids, or coaches your kids, to believe that winning by as much as you can all the time, with no regard to the integrity of the game or sportsmanship, is all that matters, you've completely missed the point.

Balla, that's you, and I weep for your children.


I think it is stupid to allow the opposition easy opportunities to score.

Winning by as much as you can would mean that these teams are winning by 100 points. They quite obviously are not winning by that amount. I think the integrity of the game of basketball is called in to question when we have people advocating that coaches tell their teams not to play hard. I would never, in any situation, direct the team that I am coaching to stop playing hard. I will never, in any situation, direct one of my children to stop playing hard.
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Re: 66-6

Postby triplebbb » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:57 am

My first 2 years of boys head coach in the mid-80's we went 1-39. Goals were set to not give up 80 pts and hopefully score 40. We hoped the other team would play their starters maybe one and a half quarters in the first half and do the best they could and start them the 3rd, then substitute freely. Coaches didn't always, but for the most part they did. There are many "unwritten rules" of basketball and they keep things under control most of the time. When 85-15 could have been 110-5 or 66-6 could have been 80-2 I think those rules were followed. I have had the opportunity since those first 2 years to coach in 10 state tourneys at 3 different levels. Been on the high and low end of scores. Mercy rule...absolutely. We play with what we are given as players and rules and do the best we can to win and lose the right way. Obviously no matter what the circumstances of any blowout it cannot be done right to satisfy some people....said people not being at any of the games in person. There will be a lot more lopsided scores this season. Unless someone is at a game in which the winning team presses late and shoots layups all night with starters and "runs it up", its a fact of Class B girl's basketball and should not be called "classless". Amen.
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:10 pm

triplebbb wrote:My first 2 years of boys head coach in the mid-80's we went 1-39. Goals were set to not give up 80 pts and hopefully score 40. We hoped the other team would play their starters maybe one and a half quarters in the first half and do the best they could and start them the 3rd, then substitute freely. Coaches didn't always, but for the most part they did. There are many "unwritten rules" of basketball and they keep things under control most of the time. When 85-15 could have been 110-5 or 66-6 could have been 80-2 I think those rules were followed. I have had the opportunity since those first 2 years to coach in 10 state tourneys at 3 different levels. Been on the high and low end of scores. Mercy rule...absolutely. We play with what we are given as players and rules and do the best we can to win and lose the right way. Obviously no matter what the circumstances of any blowout it cannot be done right to satisfy some people....said people not being at any of the games in person. There will be a lot more lopsided scores this season. Unless someone is at a game in which the winning team presses late and shoots layups all night with starters and "runs it up", its a fact of Class B girl's basketball and should not be called "classless". Amen.

Well put. Couldn't agree more.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:03 pm

Bismarck Century boys beat Mandan boys 94-44. 50 point margin.
Bismarck Century boys beats Legacy boys 76-35. 39 point margin.
Dickinson boys beat Belcourt boys 89-44. 45 point margin.
Minot boys beat Saint Mary's boys 91-47. 44 point margin.
Minot girls beat Dickinson girls 61-18. 43 point margin.
Belcourt girls beat Dickinson girls 77-42. 35 point margin.
Fargo Davies boys beat Valley City boys 92-64. 38 point margin.
Red River boys beat Central boys 67-40. 37 point margin.
West Fargo boys beat West Fargo Sheyenne boys 87-65. 22 point margin.
Fargo Davies girls beat Valley City girls 83-61. 22 point margin.
Fargo Davies girls beat West Fargo Sheyenne girls 88-61. 27 point margin.
Red River girls beat Fargo South girls 83-48. 35 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Fargo South girls 86-33. 53 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Fargo North girls 87-30. 57 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Red River girls 72-40. 32 point margin.

All of these games were decided by 20+ points. The winning team in all of these games scored at least 60 points. Heimer, are the coaches of all of these winning teams lacking class and destroying the integrity of the game by choosing not to play a 2-3 match up (makes no sense by the way) and running a different offense than the 8 second high low?

A person like me tends to think that Fargo Shanley girls' average win margin of 47.3 points has a lot to do with the D1 point guard, D2 wing, and D1 post prospect on the team, and much less to do with Tim Jacobson lacking class. Also, in my interactions with him, he really is a classy guy.

Just to add to this. Last season Fargo Shanley went 27-0. In the regular season they scored over 60 in all but 2 games and had 4 games decided by a margin of less than 20, and had more than 10 games decided by a margin of more than 30. Does their coach and program have no class and lack integrity?
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Re: 66-6

Postby Flying Wallenda » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:48 pm

balla45 wrote:Bismarck Century boys beat Mandan boys 94-44. 50 point margin.
Bismarck Century boys beats Legacy boys 76-35. 39 point margin.
Dickinson boys beat Belcourt boys 89-44. 45 point margin.
Minot boys beat Saint Mary's boys 91-47. 44 point margin.
Minot girls beat Dickinson girls 61-18. 43 point margin.
Belcourt girls beat Dickinson girls 77-42. 35 point margin.
Fargo Davies boys beat Valley City boys 92-64. 38 point margin.
Red River boys beat Central boys 67-40. 37 point margin.
West Fargo boys beat West Fargo Sheyenne boys 87-65. 22 point margin.
Fargo Davies girls beat Valley City girls 83-61. 22 point margin.
Fargo Davies girls beat West Fargo Sheyenne girls 88-61. 27 point margin.
Red River girls beat Fargo South girls 83-48. 35 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Fargo South girls 86-33. 53 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Fargo North girls 87-30. 57 point margin.
Fargo Shanley girls beat Red River girls 72-40. 32 point margin.

All of these games were decided by 20+ points. The winning team in all of these games scored at least 60 points. Heimer, are the coaches of all of these winning teams lacking class and destroying the integrity of the game by choosing not to play a 2-3 match up (makes no sense by the way) and running a different offense than the 8 second high low?

A person like me tends to think that Fargo Shanley girls' average win margin of 47.3 points has a lot to do with the D1 point guard, D2 wing, and D1 post prospect on the team, and much less to do with Tim Jacobson lacking class. Also, in my interactions with him, he really is a classy guy.

Just to add to this. Last season Fargo Shanley went 27-0. In the regular season they scored over 60 in all but 2 games and had 4 games decided by a margin of less than 20, and had more than 10 games decided by a margin of more than 30. Does their coach and program have no class and lack integrity?

Touche.........
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:31 pm

How many of them won by 70?

How many of them won by 60?

How many of them allowed their opponents 15 or less?

How many of them did it at a lower level of competition when teams at a higher level have two conferences they can play in?

Your argument makes sense to B-shot apologists. It makes no sense in the law of common sense.

Go try again.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:40 am

0.

0.

0.

It seems that there opponents had enough talent to score more than 15 points.

What?

What is a b-shot apologist? Received numerous messages from parents/players in both classes about the stupidity of your argument.

I'm good. I won.

Good night.
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:15 am

Glad you got messages of holy support from parents and players. I love it when the inmates run the asylum.

Which is the problem in the first place.

The very fact that you put 30 and 35 point games in the same category of 85-15 and 66-6 illustrates your complete denial of the truth and common sense, and you're a mod, which makes me shake my head.

I've received actual phone calls from former coaches that support my position, accusing specific coaches of running up the score in many sports for personal records and notoriety.

Denial is fun, though, so I get it. If you're into denial, you can actually wish away the holocaust, the moon landings, and even 9-11. There are some people that think the towers are still there and it was all a fake. It takes that kind of lack of common sense to support your position.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:35 am

heimer wrote:Glad you got messages of holy support from parents and players. I love it when the inmates run the asylum.

Which is the problem in the first place.

The very fact that you put 30 and 35 point games in the same category of 85-15 and 66-6 illustrates your complete denial of the truth and common sense, and you're a mod, which makes me shake my head.

I've received actual phone calls from former coaches that support my position, accusing specific coaches of running up the score in many sports for personal records and notoriety.

Denial is fun, though, so I get it. If you're into denial, you can actually wish away the holocaust, the moon landings, and even 9-11. There are some people that think the towers are still there and it was all a fake. It takes that kind of lack of common sense to support your position.


LOL.
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Re: 66-6

Postby MHSFan50 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:48 am

I have read this thread in its entirety, as well at the 85-15 thread. Maybe I missed it in all the back and forth, but where in this are we holding parents accountable for teaching their kids to win and lose with humility and respect, no matter what the score? I have always taught my son that you win and lose with integrity, no matter if it's a point spread of 2 or 82. We hold these coaches to a standard that some, as parents, aren't willing to hold themselves to. If we win by 60, great job. If we lose by 60, the other team is classless. Welcome to the world of double-standards.

If we take accountability for our children and teach them good sportsmanship, then it seems to me this supposed "problem" works itself out before we even need to have a 3+ page discussion/argument. These kids spend more time with their families than their coaches....shouldn't the foundation already be laid for this?
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:22 am

MHSFan50, I think the issue is just that people have different parenting philosophies. A person like me does not think it is bad parenting to raise your children to work as hard as they can at all times.
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Re: 66-6

Postby MHSFan50 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:56 am

I agree with you 150%. I have always told my son to work hard and do his best every time he goes out to complete. Giving anything less than your best is a huge disservice to yourself and your teammates. Practice hard, play hard. Chances are, the people complaining are much more worried about the score than the actual players...
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Re: 66-6

Postby heimer » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:52 pm

MHS fan, I'll spare you a bit since you're new to the thread, but Balla's koom-bye-yah is old rhetoric.

If your team is good enough to beat your competition by 70, and there's a class of basketball above you, you're not working as hard as you can all of the time.

By default, Balla's argument doesn't hold up. Play better teams, take the bottom seed in your region, and work as hard as you can all the time.

If you're gonna hide in Class B with Class A talent, go 28-0, beat teams by 70, and then talk about working hard and how you're just as good as the A champ (which happens every flippin year), then you're not working hard.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:17 pm

heimer wrote:If your team is good enough to beat your competition by 70, and there's a class of basketball above you, you're not working as hard as you can all of the time.


Makes zero sense. I think I understand your train of thought, but it makes zero sense.
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Re: 66-6

Postby MHSFan50 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:51 pm

So because a team plays in a certain class, by current enrollment standards set by the powers that be, they shouldn't play hard, and give their best effort night in and night out for the sake of sparing someone's feelings? So what, then, does a team in the "highest" class (not to say A is higher/better than B, but for the sake of separation) do when they are blowing out opponents (or certain opponents) on a regular basis, even sitting their starters for a majority of the second half and letting their JV and bench play the minutes? Do those players trying to earn a varsity spot not play at their highest level possible in their games? I do agree with calling off the full court press, and running through your offense, but you still play hard and play at full speed. The losing team doesn't get any better being "let" score, and the winning team doesn't gain anything by playing lazy basketball. Frankly, if I'm on the losing end of something like this, I feel worse about being given "pity" baskets and scoring 40 points, than working hard and earning 20 points.

We can go back and forth on this until we have bruised fingers from all the typing. The end result is that some of us will agree with each other, and some won't. But whether we are right, wrong or indifferent, at least we will all get a medal for participating, so we can all feel good about ourselves, right!?!?
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Re: 66-6

Postby scoobyx2 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:06 pm

balla45 wrote:
heimer wrote:If your team is good enough to beat your competition by 70, and there's a class of basketball above you, you're not working as hard as you can all of the time.


Makes zero sense. I think I understand your train of thought, but it makes zero sense.

Ironically, that statement is actually a good point. Beating a team by 70 points doesn't really mean your team worked harder. It just means that your team is in a different league of play. Also, we often hear that life isn't always fair, and play time should never be guaranteed. Doesn't that apply to all the players? I know some will say that certain players work really hard in the off season to be good, and they are owed play time, but that kind of defeats the life lesson concept.
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Re: 66-6

Postby balla45 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:08 pm

I do not think it is a good life lesson to teach, "if you are good at something, hide your talents so others are not offended by them."
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Re: 66-6

Postby scoobyx2 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:38 pm

balla45 wrote:I do not think it is a good life lesson to teach, "if you are good at something, hide your talents so others are not offended by them."

I agree with you, but unfortunately, talented athletes are really being cheated out having to play in these blow out games so the only real motivation is personal stats and records. I think this thread started out discussing whether or not a 66-6 or 85-15 game should be avoided, and what are the consequences if they are not. I am from a small Class B school and people have told me that the games are too predictable. They know which ones will be blowouts, and they are tired of going just to watch 1 or 2 players score a lot of points. In football, they adjust classes every year. The sport especially at the 9-man level has been growing consistently.
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