North Dakota Preps

heimer wrote: The #1 complaint from parents: What if my little Johnny misses his chance to hold the takedown record or wins record in school history.

Tells me about what really matters in games like this. It's all about parents living life through their kids to get a last name on a wall, and the coaches who enable it. Then the apologists follow with "level of competition" and "schedule" and "getting better" crap excuses.

I'm going to defend Heimer on this specific point.

And I am speaking from the point of view of someone who WAS this kind of parent to a degree. A big dose of perspective has completely changed my point of view. It is sad that it took the welfare of a child to get my attention. We as parents have to focus on what is truly important. Trust me that records, names on a wall or perceived "legacy" of a player is absolutely and completely meaningless in the overall scheme of things. It does not validate you as a parent in any form or fashion. Teaching your student athletes to respect others while competing is a lesson they can use the rest of their lives, well beyond their playing days. This will refelct more on your skills as a parent than any accolade. It is also important to remember that what is important to us as parents will often become important to them.

I'm not going to get into the discussion about what coachable moments may or may not exist in this situation as I simply don't know enough technically about the game. I will, however, weigh in from a parents perspective and I feel that I have a certain level of expertise derived from making just about every mistake in the book.

EHS1998 wrote:

heimer wrote: The #1 complaint from parents: What if my little Johnny misses his chance to hold the takedown record or wins record in school history.

Tells me about what really matters in games like this. It's all about parents living life through their kids to get a last name on a wall, and the coaches who enable it. Then the apologists follow with "level of competition" and "schedule" and "getting better" crap excuses.

I'm going to defend Heimer on this specific point.

And I am speaking from the point of view of someone who WAS this kind of parent to a degree. A big dose of perspective has completely changed my point of view. It is sad that it took the welfare of a child to get my attention. We as parents have to focus on what is truly important. Trust me that records, names on a wall or perceived "legacy" of a player is absolutely and completely meaningless in the overall scheme of things. It does not validate you as a parent in any form or fashion. Teaching your student athletes to respect others while competing is a lesson they can use the rest of their lives, well beyond their playing days. This will refelct more on your skills as a parent than any accolade. It is also important to remember that what is important to us as parents will often become important to them.

I'm not going to get into the discussion about what coachable moments may or may not exist in this situation as I simply don't know enough technically about the game. I will, however, weigh in from a parents perspective and I feel that I have a certain level of expertise derived from making just about every mistake in the book.

I do not disagree with parts of this. I agree with what you are saying here. i do not know all of the details of your situation but have some idea and can see where you are coming from.

EHS1998 wrote:I'm not going to get into the discussion about what coachable moments may or may not exist in this situation as I simply don't know enough technically about the game.

Heimer doesn't either. That's my whole issue with this topic.

Pressure zone is not zone.

And the comparison of Century to Mandan is probably much more comparable on an enrollment plain than Watford City and RT. Watford City to RT would be the same as what to Mandan? St. Paul Central? Apple Valley, or more?

Do you feel that a team improves by having it's players stand in a zone and not apply pressure?

No idea. Not huge in to the enrollment thing. Work with what you have.

The point of this rant by Heimer is that WC is upset about going Class A. If you've paid attention the past couple months....WC is not moving up. Low oil..lower enrollment...not 325...still in Class B for the next cycle. There are definitely haves and have nots in Class B girl's basketball. That's why WC plays many teams with their JV and schedules Dickinson High (home and home), Turtle Mountain, Shiloh, and anyone else who will play. It was the 1st round of a tournament. WC was playing their very first game after 3 weeks of practice. RT is not strong right now. All factors to lead to a very lopsided game. But angry about going up a class?

This is good Stuff. In class A, Shanley is beating schools 4 times their size by 40 and 50 points. Its not about your size. Find a group of girls that want to work their tails off to get better. No one is wondering what we should do about Shanley....

First I heard it was official, though I knew it was a possibility. Doesn't change the take at all. They were. That's how they reacted. And they reacted that way about the shot clock also. This is a B dominated board. I'm not here to win. I'm here to talk.

That being said, Watford City staying B is actually more concerning, not less. Too bad they will continue to kill teams with no class and be rewarded with the undying praise of the mods on this B-slanted board.

Baller wrote:This is good Stuff. In class A, Shanley is beating schools 4 times their size by 40 and 50 points. Its not about your size. Find a group of girls that want to work their tails off to get better. No one is wondering what we should do about Shanley....

Yeah, because we've never had a conversation about recruiting on this board, have we?

Clueless. Just clueless.

And the 8-second offense has no value?

Zone is not a defense?

Clueless. Just clueless.

heimer wrote:

Baller wrote:This is good Stuff. In class A, Shanley is beating schools 4 times their size by 40 and 50 points. Its not about your size. Find a group of girls that want to work their tails off to get better. No one is wondering what we should do about Shanley....

Yeah, because we've never had a conversation about recruiting on this board, have we?

Clueless. Just clueless.

And the 8-second offense has no value?

Zone is not a defense?

Clueless. Just clueless.

Who said an 8 second offense has no value? Who said zone is not defense? I think you struggle with reading for content.

I'm sure it isn't easy to coach in a game when your team is far superior to the other team. I know that Watford City plays a very up-tempo game, does a lot of full court trapping zone and they rely on their speed and athleticism. So it wouldn't surprise me if they don't have a 2-3 jug zone defense to plug up the middle and let their opponents throw the ball around the outside of the zone.

Generally most teams that like to play full court defense are very aggressive in what zones they will play in the half court, usually a 1-3-1 trapping most passes along the sideline or playing an extended 2-3 that will trap the first pass. If I'm not going to play a "plug-up" zone defense throughout the rest of the year, I'm sure as heck not going to play one just to keep the score of a game closer.

I talked to some people that were at the game and made it sound like Watford City could have won by 100+. I have been on the losing end of some ugly scores and I didn't blame the other teams for running their stuff on offense or playing pressure half-court defense, now if a team kept trapping when up by a large margin late in the game I would have a problem with that but that didn't seem to be the case here.

No one likes to see final scores like this, especially from the winning side. I could be wrong, but I don't see this as Watford City trying to send a message that they are unhappy about the possibility of moving up to class A or the implementation of the shot clock. To me this just looks like a case where a very good team played a struggling team in the first round of a tournament in which they have no choice over the opponent they match up with.

Message or not, there's a right way and a wrong way. This was the wrong way, pure and simple. We tell kids to lose with humility. Learn to win with it also.

Coaching needs to account for this. Unfortunately, in the B world, winning is all that matters.

heimer wrote:Message or not, there's a right way and a wrong way. This was the wrong way, pure and simple. We tell kids to lose with humility. Learn to win with it also.

Coaching needs to account for this. Unfortunately, in the B world, winning is all that matters.

So, if I am to understand correctly, the only adequate solution would have been for Watford City to go in to a gap zone and burn the shot clock when they had the ball?

I disagree with you 1000%.

Then you are part of the problem, not the solution.

This is again where we have a fundamental disagreement. I do not think that there is a problem. A team got blown out. It happens.

That attitude is also a problem.

This is not the NBA. This is high school basketball.

When the prize of state titles and personal records becomes more important than playing with class and dignity, the mission of high school athletics has been lost.

Taxpayers are paying for this with education money. If we can't use the process to educate, taxpayers should quit funding high school athletics. Better lessons are then learned through other activities, like speech, fine arts, and forensics. There was a fantastic lesson to be learned in this game, and instead of teaching it, we taught that personal achievement means more than team goals, and state titles are more important than sportsmanship.

I'm rarely a sportsmanship guy. I don't play that card. In this situation, sportsmanship and building a 20-point lead and then having some class is more important than winning by 70 so a coach can get a better job and parents can pat themselves on the back at the bar after the game.

Lessons are hard to come by, I guess.

Holy cow. I thought we've always run a pretty good program out here in WC…from Tom Suelzle til now. Did not see the extreme bitterness and hatred coming. We have a good team. 6 seniors, 2 jrs. and a soph that have played a lot. D1 triple jumper heading to South Dakota State. Couple AAU kids. Won many games the past 4 years. Our 2 time all-stater had a whopping 16 points. Going for records i guess. Know the coach, know the program before you call somebody out about being classless and not teaching life lessons. What's an appropriate blow out score when a top 5 team plays a team that may not win a game all year? Look at WC schedule and see how they are going to bludgeon everyone. Gotta play some teams in your district. We play 3 with our JV. Still win by 20. I really don't know what else to do in a game like is being talked about.

heimer wrote:That attitude is also a problem.

This is not the NBA. This is high school basketball.

When the prize of state titles and personal records becomes more important than playing with class and dignity, the mission of high school athletics has been lost.

Taxpayers are paying for this with education money. If we can't use the process to educate, taxpayers should quit funding high school athletics. Better lessons are then learned through other activities, like speech, fine arts, and forensics. There was a fantastic lesson to be learned in this game, and instead of teaching it, we taught that personal achievement means more than team goals, and state titles are more important than sportsmanship.

I'm rarely a sportsmanship guy. I don't play that card. In this situation, sportsmanship and building a 20-point lead and then having some class is more important than winning by 70 so a coach can get a better job and parents can pat themselves on the back at the bar after the game.

Lessons are hard to come by, I guess.

I feel more people would agree with my take on the situation than would agree with your take on the situation.

Watford City does play with class and dignity. Had this been a situation where they pressed the entire game, the players were being arrogant, and there was dirty play, I would have a different opinion.

i am a taxpayer and am very happy to have my tax dollars going to fund high school athletics. I think it is beneficial for the youth in North Dakota to realize that in life, sometimes you do not win.

What personal achievement was accomplished in this game that was more important than the team goal? Did their 2 time all stater go for 50 points and 20 rebounds? I do not see where you are going with this.

I will likely end my side of this discussion here. I think your argument has absolutely no merit, and I feel it is a waste of my time to continue participating.

Garrison beat South Prairie 66-6 last night. Are you ready to drop this argument against WC now, heimer?

I have often told the young athletes to take time to decide for themselves what the score means. In record books, a win is a win. If you lose by 2 or 50, its still a loss. You could score 35 points, and show poor conduct in front of a college coach, and that could be considered a loss if they walk away. You can lose only scoring 6 points, but be proud that you put a team together. Also, hard lessons are learned in music, speech, science, and in the classroom as kids compete for achievement awards and class placements that can lead to scholarships. Winning and losing is not always easily defined.

ndlionsfan wrote:Garrison beat South Prairie 66-6 last night. Are you ready to drop this argument against WC now, heimer?

No, I'm ready to add Garrison to the conversation.

Would your attitude change if you knew that the team who got BEAT by 70 still had a press on for most of the game

The Schwab wrote:Would your attitude change if you knew that the team who got BEAT by 70 still had a press on for most of the game

I coached a JV where this happened. I played my bottom 5 the last 6 minutes while the opposing team continued to press us and we got layup after layup. We won 86-23, I'm a classless, horrible person though.

Flip wrote:

The Schwab wrote:Would your attitude change if you knew that the team who got BEAT by 70 still had a press on for most of the game

I coached a JV where this happened. I played my bottom 5 the last 6 minutes while the opposing team continued to press us and we got layup after layup. We won 86-23, I'm a classless, horrible person though.

So, the team that was so good that they could name the score and couldn't avoid winning by 70 because of their talent scored 29 in a loss to Trinity.