2013-14 State Tourney

[Indy5]

Let's list the advantages - I personally am asking our school board to petition the NDHSAA to push the large city parochial teams out of the B and a list of advantages will help.

1. Private schools typically have more affluent parents that do send their kids through the AAU programs.
2. Large city college programs are allowing kids whose parents are donors to practice with their teams (the three New Town girls are practicing up at Mary and even had a chunk of the U of Mary team at the region championship cheering them on. I know the Hansted boys also practiced with DSU - that's class A but shows that this isn't an isolated instance of one college).
3. Immediate access to the acceleration programs offered by the major medical facilities in cities.
4. Transfers - I don't believe there is recruiting and think we class B towns shoot our own arguments in the foot by this always being the first topic raised. There are definitely well documented transfer problems at Shiloh though and it's a given that they weren't transferred for "faith based" schooling.
5. Money spent on sports programs by the parochial schools (and not just on facilities). If you look at the Shiloh/Ryan/Oak Grove schedules you'll notice that they'll travel great distances to play stiffer competition. The schools in our district are even consolidating boys/girls games into one night to try and keep travel costs down so that they can live within the tax bases budget.
6. Money spent on coaching - Shiloh has 4 coaches and the small towns in our district budget for 2. We had three this year but only because our elementary coach did it for free while trying to gain some high school experience.

There is some real animosity growing, at least in our region, about this problem and I was ecstatic that Sherm Sylling was on hand to witness the ABS (Anyone But Shiloh) sentiment that has taken over. Since he's retiring I hope he is passing it on to the other board members. Grant County had a great sign that went something like "home grown talent - small town pride" and all the other communities in the region were cheering on the Coyotes. Any other advantages people can give would definitely be appreciated and I'll post my letter to the Underwood school board in case anyone else wants to use it to encourage their board to speak up.

So what's the difference between a private school and schools like Surrey, DLB, Velva, Sawyer, Max, Thompson, Kindred, Casselton, New England on points 2 and 3? Once again anyone can transfer to a public school too. I can't speak for Shiloh having four coaches but I know a lot of assistant coaches who work for free or are college kids that make $200 throughout the year. A lot of coaches doesn't always equal big budget

[Flip]

Not sure if this is true, but I had heard, that Coach Dwyer took the coaching jobs yrs ago , as unpaid, not sure if that is still true today, but if so, kudos to him, as he seems to be a pretty darn good coach.

There was a time when I thought all Shiloh coaches were volunteers and not paid.

[ndlionsfan]

Let's list the advantages - I personally am asking our school board to petition the NDHSAA to push the large city parochial teams out of the B and a list of advantages will help.

1. Private schools typically have more affluent parents that do send their kids through the AAU programs.
2. Large city college programs are allowing kids whose parents are donors to practice with their teams (the three New Town girls are practicing up at Mary and even had a chunk of the U of Mary team at the region championship cheering them on. I know the Hansted boys also practiced with DSU - that's class A but shows that this isn't an isolated instance of one college).
3. Immediate access to the acceleration programs offered by the major medical facilities in cities.
4. Transfers - I don't believe there is recruiting and think we class B towns shoot our own arguments in the foot by this always being the first topic raised. There are definitely well documented transfer problems at Shiloh though and it's a given that they weren't transferred for "faith based" schooling.
5. Money spent on sports programs by the parochial schools (and not just on facilities). If you look at the Shiloh/Ryan/Oak Grove schedules you'll notice that they'll travel great distances to play stiffer competition. The schools in our district are even consolidating boys/girls games into one night to try and keep travel costs down so that they can live within the tax bases budget.
6. Money spent on coaching - Shiloh has 4 coaches and the small towns in our district budget for 2. We had three this year but only because our elementary coach did it for free while trying to gain some high school experience.

There is some real animosity growing, at least in our region, about this problem and I was ecstatic that Sherm Sylling was on hand to witness the ABS (Anyone But Shiloh) sentiment that has taken over. Since he's retiring I hope he is passing it on to the other board members. Grant County had a great sign that went something like "home grown talent - small town pride" and all the other communities in the region were cheering on the Coyotes. Any other advantages people can give would definitely be appreciated and I'll post my letter to the Underwood school board in case anyone else wants to use it to encourage their board to speak up.

I would suggest you take a look at your list of six arguments. The private school that I am familiar with doesn't have any kids in AAU programs. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of Class be kids in AAU basketball from class B, but most if not all are from the small town teams. Where did you get the information of Shiloh girls practicing with UMary? There were some UMary girls at Regional, but because they were friends of some of the Shiloh girls and enjoy watching girls BBall. I know a ton of small town athletes that go to acceleration programs. I would say there are more small town kids using this program than Private school kids, at least in Bismarck area. You get one move in your high school career without sitting out and the Shiloh girls this year moved from New Town. Private schools do host jamborees and such bringing in top teams, but a lot of them aren't private schools. Lastly, how much do you think those 4 coaches were paid to coach? I would guess that it would be very little compared to a Public School.

You will have to come up with more points than the ones you have listed. None of these issues would hold water with NDHSAA.

That is not true. If your parents move into any district no matter the number of times, the player does not have to sit out. If a kid transfers without parents moving they sit out a year no matter what.

[Pit Bull]

Thanks for clearing up the transfer rule. I can't believe a parent would keep moving for their kids to play in another district. Regardless of the actual rule, cometdad does not have anything to stand on with his arguments. The biggest issue with these Private schools is that they have a chance of getting new kids in the larger towns. Places like Grant County do not have anything to draw new families to their towns. The kids that started their are usual the ones that graduate from their unless they move.

[classB4ever]

Can someone please inform me as to how everyone in the state started thinking that Private schools operate like colleges? They don't. Don't say Private schools get new kids every year. No they don't. Shiloh has had a recent slew of transfer. They are the only ones. Bishop Ryan hasn't had a significant transfer since Hannah Stewart came as an 8th grader from Washington (Mom graduated from Ryan). Before that was 2005 when a kid moved from a country in the middle of a civil war. Run already said Oak Grove has had one in 6 years. Can't remember any for Trinity or Our Redeemers. I'm just not seeing these transfers everyone talks about, other than Shiloh's recent run. One school doesn't make a whole group.

I've also seen the argument many times how privates control their enrollment. No they don't. They're all dying out and around/under 150 kids. I promise you they'd gladly, gladly play class A basketball if they could get 325 kids in the school. It's been brought up as to how no one knows their enrollments, and I blame this on administration. See, they are embarrassed by low numbers and want the school to seem like its thriving so they will never use a straight 9-12 number for enrollment, usually 7-12 or 6-12, then people can mistake it for 9-12.

Also, I'm not naive. I know these schools have 1 advantage. That is the fact that their town has more options and more kids to play against. I can't deny this, but it also takes work for those kids to use the advantage. Small town kids who are dedicated find ways to improve themselves as well.

1. The first thing we have to admit is that anybody with 1 ounce of basketball sense, could go to any of the underclass tournaments (grades 4, 5, 6, 7) going on across the state right now and pick out 90% of the players who will be making a splash, at any level, in the next 6 - 7 years. It's not that difficult. Some of it is pure DNA and all you have to do is look at their name. The rest is just witnessing pure talent. To say there is no recruiting going on is putting your head in the sand. Are the coaches doing it? Maybe a little, but it's not recognized at the younger ages. Are the parents doing it? Of course they are. Why wouldn't they? If you have multiple elementary and middle school campuses in a large town, you have an advantage. Fairly large advantage. And if you get these kids playing together at an early age on traveling teams, etc., then it's that much easier to keep the feeder system alive. And nobody really talks about transferring before 8th grade, now do they?
2. Small town ND does not have the infrastructure to bring back a lot of their own. These kids are finding jobs in the big towns and that's where they are raising their families. The fact they can live anywhere in these large towns and have their kids attending a private school (elementary, middle or high school) is an advantage. For many, the private schools give them an opportunity to give their children the flavor of smaller classrooms, great schooling and a chance to play sports. And yes, it is faith based. But believe it or not, small towns have always been pretty good about promoting that as well.

It can be denied, it can be called something else, it can be anything you want. But it's real and it's happening. And if I lived in one of the larger towns, I would do it as well. Just being honest.

[Minnelli]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

[scoobyx2]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

[Flip]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

I wonder how much time it took him to look up those championships. The rest of research seems pointless and I don't know how it backs his point.

[Shawn]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

Here is the link again people!!! http://www.ndhsaa.com/about/constitution

start on page 32 and read for yourself. Otherwise you will have people make incorrect statements regarding this rule.

[justplayalready]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

I think it is valid to separate Championships and appearances...I think the data will show a disproportionate amount of appearances by 4 of the BCP's...the data will all show 2 BCP's appear less than average.

I get the argument, but to me it's imcomplete

[classB4ever]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

Won't comment on the article and it's validity, but will comment on the above in bold. It may be worth mentioning Mr. Chapman was the sports editor for the Minot Daily News.

[scoobyx2]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

Here is the link again people!!! http://www.ndhsaa.com/about/constitution

start on page 32 and read for yourself. Otherwise you will have people make incorrect statements regarding this rule.

Thank you.

[scoobyx2]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

I think it is valid to separate Championships and appearances...I think the data will show a disproportionate amount of appearances by 4 of the BCP's...the data will all show 2 BCP's appear less than average.

I get the argument, but to me it's imcomplete

For many Class B schools, just being able to put a team together and be relatively competitive is a big deal. You can go to a lot of small school gyms, and their aren't a lot of recent banners on the wall for even appearances to the Regional tournament. So to discuss whether a school that is located in a bigger city has an advantage or not based on State Championships or even State Tournament appearances is not a complete Class B discussion. Shanley and St. Mary's has always promoted faith-based small school atmosphere with the opportunity to compete against the highest level of competition especially in their city.

[justplayalready]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

I think it is valid to separate Championships and appearances...I think the data will show a disproportionate amount of appearances by 4 of the BCP's...the data will all show 2 BCP's appear less than average.

I get the argument, but to me it's imcomplete

For many Class B schools, just being able to put a team together and be relatively competitive is a big deal. You can go to a lot of small school gyms, and their aren't a lot of recent banners on the wall for even appearances to the Regional tournament. So to discuss whether a school that is located in a bigger city has an advantage or not based on State Championships or even State Tournament appearances is not a complete Class B discussion. Shanley and St. Mary's has always promoted faith-based small school atmosphere with the opportunity to compete against the highest level of competition especially in their city.

So is it fair to say that it is a benefit(as a whole for the school) for these schools to be Class B in Boys and Girls Bball??? I don't think there is any argument there. The argument would be do they have an advantage???

[scoobyx2]

Finally, a class B supporter and fan from Rugby who has some intelligent, insightful thoughts on the subject. And he's done his research too-- please note the relatively low number of championships by private schools:

https://www.thepiercecountytribune.com/ ... l?nav=5011

I think it is valid to separate Championships and appearances...I think the data will show a disproportionate amount of appearances by 4 of the BCP's...the data will all show 2 BCP's appear less than average.

I get the argument, but to me it's imcomplete

For many Class B schools, just being able to put a team together and be relatively competitive is a big deal. You can go to a lot of small school gyms, and their aren't a lot of recent banners on the wall for even appearances to the Regional tournament. So to discuss whether a school that is located in a bigger city has an advantage or not based on State Championships or even State Tournament appearances is not a complete Class B discussion. Shanley and St. Mary's has always promoted faith-based small school atmosphere with the opportunity to compete against the highest level of competition especially in their city.

So is it fair to say that it is a benefit(as a whole for the school) for these schools to be Class B in Boys and Girls Bball??? I don't think there is any argument there. The argument would be do they have an advantage???

I believe they have an advantage and it can't just be measured with the success of their programs based on wins and losses. Shiloh has an amazing sports complex that has been paid for by millions in fundraising and business donations. Businesses are not likely to support the same venture in New Salem or Linton. A lot of players in Class B have to travel just to go to practice in any grassy area they can find for outdoor sports. Track kids are running on the one paved road they have in town. I am curious as to what kind of facilities Dickinson Trinity will have as they rebuild, and will Minot Ryan continue to compete in Class A fastpitch as the sport grows? I think the the private schools should compete in Class A in almost all sports except maybe football which is already broken down into 4 classes. That is just my opinion.

[d_fense]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

I pulled my the numbers I will use from the North Dakota High School Activity Association 2013-2014 membership data.

Shanley does not have an enrollment that puts them in Class A. They have 335 students in grades 7-12. If you run the numbers and say each class has equal numbers (which I am sure they don't, but it should be close) Shanley would have 55 students per class or about 220 students in grades 9-12. Well below the ceiling of 325 students in grades 9-12.

Bismarck St. Mary's has 330 students in grades 9-12. That comes out to about 82 students per class and puts them just over the 325 student ceiling for class B.

I am not certain, but would guess that both of these schools are growing. St. Mary's I would guess has been playing in Class A with an enrollment that could have put them in B until recently (probably just this year), while Shanley is playing A with a B enrollment that is well under what it could be and still allow them to play B if they were to choose to.

[ndlionsfan]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

I pulled my the numbers I will use from the North Dakota High School Activity Association 2013-2014 membership data.

Shanley does not have an enrollment that puts them in Class A. They have 335 students in grades 7-12. If you run the numbers and say each class has equal numbers (which I am sure they don't, but it should be close) Shanley would have 55 students per class or about 220 students in grades 9-12. Well below the ceiling of 325 students in grades 9-12.

Bismarck St. Mary's has 330 students in grades 9-12. That comes out to about 82 students per class and puts them just over the 325 student ceiling for class B.

I am not certain, but would guess that both of these schools are growing. St. Mary's I would guess has been playing in Class A with an enrollment that could have put them in B until recently (probably just this year), while Shanley is playing A with a B enrollment that is well under what it could be and still allow them to play B if they were to choose to.

My guess is that the 335 is a 9-12 number for Shanley and just reported incorrectly from either side entering into the NDHSAA directory. There are many inaccuracies in the directory as far as labeling a school's enrollment 7-12 or 9-12. The next football plan has Shanley at 144 males in grades 7-10. Assuming roughly a 50% ratio of boys to girls, that would put Shanley just under 300 enrollment for grades 7-10. With some declining enrollment, I would guess that current grades 11 and 12 are larger than 7 and 8 to get a slightly larger high school enrollment at this time.

[Run4Fun2009]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

I pulled my the numbers I will use from the North Dakota High School Activity Association 2013-2014 membership data.

Shanley does not have an enrollment that puts them in Class A. They have 335 students in grades 7-12. If you run the numbers and say each class has equal numbers (which I am sure they don't, but it should be close) Shanley would have 55 students per class or about 220 students in grades 9-12. Well below the ceiling of 325 students in grades 9-12.

Bismarck St. Mary's has 330 students in grades 9-12. That comes out to about 82 students per class and puts them just over the 325 student ceiling for class B.

I am not certain, but would guess that both of these schools are growing. St. Mary's I would guess has been playing in Class A with an enrollment that could have put them in B until recently (probably just this year), while Shanley is playing A with a B enrollment that is well under what it could be and still allow them to play B if they were to choose to.

My guess is that the 335 is a 9-12 number for Shanley and just reported incorrectly from either side entering into the NDHSAA directory. There are many inaccuracies in the directory as far as labeling a school's enrollment 7-12 or 9-12. The next football plan has Shanley at 144 males in grades 7-10. Assuming roughly a 50% ratio of boys to girls, that would put Shanley just under 300 enrollment for grades 7-10. With some declining enrollment, I would guess that current grades 11 and 12 are larger than 7 and 8 to get a slightly larger high school enrollment at this time.

335 is their enrollment for 9-12...checked their school website for that info (their 6-12 enrollment is approximately 560).

[d_fense]

I do see the Shanley website lists 9-12 as approximately 330.

[scoobyx2]

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if Fargo Shanley and Bismarck St. Mary's have always had enrollment numbers to have them considered Class A? They are pretty small schools compared to the big schools in their cities and they seem to be able to compete. Also, residency is a pretty big issue when transfers are considered. When does the 180 days start? Can a kid go live with a friend of the family who is in the new school district and start school, and the 180 days starts on the day she starts school?

I pulled my the numbers I will use from the North Dakota High School Activity Association 2013-2014 membership data.

Shanley does not have an enrollment that puts them in Class A. They have 335 students in grades 7-12. If you run the numbers and say each class has equal numbers (which I am sure they don't, but it should be close) Shanley would have 55 students per class or about 220 students in grades 9-12. Well below the ceiling of 325 students in grades 9-12.

Bismarck St. Mary's has 330 students in grades 9-12. That comes out to about 82 students per class and puts them just over the 325 student ceiling for class B.

I am not certain, but would guess that both of these schools are growing. St. Mary's I would guess has been playing in Class A with an enrollment that could have put them in B until recently (probably just this year), while Shanley is playing A with a B enrollment that is well under what it could be and still allow them to play B if they were to choose to.

I know quite a few Shanley and St. Mary's graduates, and they remember having school board meetings debating on whether or not they should compete in Class B back when their schools were smaller. It was decided that competing in Class A was a better fit since it conformed better with travel, competition, and residency. They had a lot of kids to draw from. They were both schools with under 300 students who were competing against Fargo South that had a school population of approx. 2200 (before Davies), and Bismarck High that is still around 1800 today.

[Indy5]

Maybe it's because those two have always played class A basketball (and the fact that they're significantly bigger than the rest) but those two have always seemed to be in their own league from the rest of the privates.

[scoobyx2]

Maybe it's because those two have always played class A basketball (and the fact that they're significantly bigger than the rest) but those two have always seemed to be in their own league from the rest of the privates.

When they don't have a particular sport at their school, they don't co-op with other Class B schools. I think their athletes would do fine going Class A.

[radball]

Just a quick idea on a new rule regarding transfers: how about they have to set out out half of the regular season play schedule of any and all extra curricular activities(they can practice but not play in games or events) the first full year of transfer? Yes I know they still would have a advantage at state, but its a happy medium. Private schools would have to abide by this rule to, no exceptions. And I still believe private schools should be in the top class based on one reason, they can limit the amount of enrollment to stay under the limit(pick and choose). Public schools don't have this advantage.

[ndlionsfan]

Just a quick idea on a new rule regarding transfers: how about they have to set out out half of the regular season play schedule of any and all extra curricular activities(they can practice but not play in games or events) the first full year of transfer? Yes I know they still would have a advantage at state, but its a happy medium. Private schools would have to abide by this rule to, no exceptions. And I still believe private schools should be in the top class based on one reason, they can limit the amount of enrollment to stay under the limit(pick and choose). Public schools don't have this advantage.

I don't even think this is worth answering since you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Go read the NDHSAA rules first.

[Flip]

they can limit the amount of enrollment to stay under the limit(pick and choose). Public schools don't have this advantage.

They can, but how many do this? How many private schools that compete in class B basketball are even close to the 325 cutoff?