Almost There

[balla45]

Assuming we are not including any type of girls basketball in this discussion, and simply boys.

Saint Mary's - Shanley - Obviously teams on the same level of play. Overall season record among two teams is 1-1. Saint Mary's with an 11 point win. Shanley with a 5 point overtime win. Explain how this makes Shanley better than Saint Mary's, or how this makes the EDC better than the WDA.

Century - Red River - Obviously teams on the same level of play. I think this is a toss up, and again hard to say which team is better or worse, or how it helps each conference.

West Fargo - Bismarck - Bismarck obviously better.

Fargo Davies - Mandan - Fargo Davies obviously better.

After round 1, it looks like we have two teams who are toss ups, and one match up where the WDA is better than the EDC and one match up where the EDC is better than the WDA.

Round 2 featured teams from the same conference playing each other.

Shanley beats Bismarck in the championship - Shanley clearly the better team.

Davies beats Century - Century plays Logan Kress, Riley Henderson, Jake Sommerfield, Chris Kraft, and Kyle Connor, who do not see the floor in regular games. Mattern does not stand once during the game. Hard to really say that this game was taken seriously be the Century coaching staff, so it really proves nothing.

Red River beats Saint Mary's - Saint Mary's starts Andrew Wolf, which immediately shows us that their coaching staff is playing this game as an honor to their seniors, rather than to simply win the fifth place game.

Try to take basketball with some type of context.


We can also argue the teams from top to bottom.

In my opinion, the following tiers existed this season. Obviously, upsets do occur, but here is how I viewed the state this season.

Tier 1 - in alphabetical order

Century, Davies, Minot, Red River, Saint Mary's, Shanley

Tier 2 - in alphabetical order

Bismarck, Dickinson, Mandan, South, Wahpeton, West Fargo

Tier 3 - alphabetical order

Belcourt, Central, Devil's Lake, Jamestown, North, Valley City, Williston

Obviously during the course of the season, there were a few upsets, but for the most part, this is accurate.


Finally, if we only want to use WINS as the criteria.

WDA - 18 of the last 22 Class A basketball titles. I think that alone says more than enough.

[balla45]

I think you just did. You obviously do not believe that any one matchup can determine who is better consistently in A boys basketball, because so many teams beat so many other teams.

So, lets do this:

EDC record vs WDA at state: 5-2
WDA record vs EDC: 2-5

Tough to argue those numbers.

I missed this post.

Do you really feel that if we had a region that included the following teams, the teams in orange would post a significantly higher overall record than the teams in red, assuming that all teams play twice, for a total of 18 games. This would actually give us a realistic depiction as to which conference is better.

I find it difficult to say that a tournament that featured an overtime game between the (IMO) best team in the WDA, and the best team in the EDC, as well as a game that featured a buzzer beater between the (IMO) second best team in the WDA, and the second best team in the EDC really shows us that either conference is superior to the other.

Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Fargo Davies
Fargo Shanley
Fargo South
Grand Forks Red River
Mandan
Minot
Saint Mary's Central
West Fargo

[heimer]

First, my overall stance that the EDC is better than the WDA has a lot to do with how I read qualifying for state. Red River and Shanley were both upset in the semis of the EDC. At the time, ranked the top two teams in state. Shanley was the best team in the state, and Davies beat them in the semis.

I believe that, year in and year out, the EDC has three difficult rounds to win in. The WDA has one, the qualifying round. There is better balance in the EDC than the WDA.

Finally, the ultimate comparison is the state tournament. If you don't like the way your teams play the game, tell them to play it differently. It's clear to me that WDA teams got the benefit of home-court advantage, with Bismarck having played seven games in the Civic Center. Bismarck vs. West Fargo on a neutral floor--advantage West Fargo. Century vs. Red River on a neutral floor--advantage Red River.

The east went 5-2 in Bismarck against the west. We can talk minutes and strategy all we want to. At the end of the day, the EDC was 5-2 in hostile territory. I was there, so I saw what I'm talking about.

[balla45]

I watched every team in the state tournament play at least 5 times this year, prior to the state tournament. I was there all season, so I know what I'm talking about.

[balla45]

And not that it matters, as I do pay a whole lot of attention to ranking, but Saint Mary's was ranked two when Shanley lost to Davies at EDC.

[heimer]

Which strengthens my argument that a team ranked third in state, that finishes fourth in the EDC, the wins the state tournament, represents a stronger conference.

[balla45]

Not really. It simply shows that they happened to have an off game where they lost to a team that they should not have lost to.

Bismarck made the state championship game after barely qualifying and entering as the four seed.

Same situation honestly, with the difference being that Shanley is better than Bismarck.

[heimer]

I love how wins and losses mean nothing to you. Shanley lost more games to EDC opponents than WDA opponents this year. They beat the only team in the WDA they lost to later in the season when it mattered more. St Mary's then lost a second game in the state tournament to Red River.

So, in summation, the best team in the WDA lost games to the third and fourth place finishers in the EDC at the end of the year.

The EDC won 5-7 games against WDA competition on a west floor in the state tournament. My rankings:

1. Shanley
2 (t) Red River
2 (t) Davies
4. St. Marys
5. West Fargo
6. Century
7. South
8. (t) Bismarck
8. (t) Wahpeton
10. Mandan

[balla45]

I have no idea how Minot is not in your top 7.

Of course Shanley lost more games to EDC opponents than WDA opponents. Are you aware that they played 2 total WDA opponents this season?

Also, wins and losses do mean something, but use some logic. Shanley beats Davies by 20, 20, loses by 5, and wins by 26. I would say that is the perfect example of "losing to a team you should not have lost to."

Even in your ranking, I do not understand how Saint Mary's could possibly be below Fargo Davies. Saint Mary's only EDC losses are to Grand Forks Red River and Fargo Shanley, and they have a win against Fargo Shanley. WDA losses to Minot and Bismarck. Minot's only EDC loss is to Grand Forks Red River. Bismarck's only EDC loss is to Fargo Shanley. Fargo Davies lost to Devil's Lake.

Your "in summation" sentence is again, using a complete lack of logic. I could then say that the EDC Tournament champion lost to the WDA 4 seed, who had to come back in the WDA Tournament after beating the 5 seed. So then, obviously, Bismarck would have won the EDC Tournament, as they crushed West Fargo, who did win the EDC Tournament.

My rankings at end of season.

1. Grand Forks Red River
2. Saint Mary's Central
3. Fargo Shanley
4. Bismarck Century
5. Minot
6. Fargo Davies
7. Mandan
8. Bismarck


You honestly have to use some basketball logic.

Example, realizing that Wahpeton was able to keep games close with Red River because they took away the pin downs that Kroeplin usually scores on.

Or that West Fargo was able to pull off a win against Red River by doing the same thing, as was Century. But that West Fargo stuggles with a team like a Bismarck High, because they are a better overall shooting team than Red River is. Century may have struggled to beat Fargo Davies, because Davies has two explosive scoring guards, however, Century's ability to control tempo and beat Red River, along with having no bad losses in games where they were still playing for something puts them above Davies to me. I could almost argue for Bismarck over Davies, considering Bismarck was able to blow out a West Fargo team that Davies lost to in the EDC championship game.

You watched I'm guessing the EDC Tourament and the State Tournament. I watched, I would venture to say, somewhere around 100 Class A boys games this year. I am confident in my assessment of the teams.

[The Schwab]

Heimer I completely agree with your "super 2", that would make so much more sense in our state.

[balla45]

@Heimer, when you use logic to argue, instead of using 6 days of watching basketball, we may be able to have a decent argument.

I honestly probably should just end this argument. You clearly have not seen a lot of Class A boys basketball this season, so are coming in to the argument with limited knowledge.

You left Minot out of your top 10 behind Fargo South, Mandan, Wahpeton, and West Fargo. When it is fairly obvious that they were quite a bit ahead of these teams for the entire duration of the season. One of the few teams to be ranked in every poll the entire year.

I'll be back later. Have to run some workouts so it may be awhile before I am able to respond.

[heimer]

Schwab, almost everyone who sees it finds something they like. There is a lot of potential with it.

Balla, the EDC had the best team in the state. It won five of seven matchups at the same tourney. Minot didn't make the tournament. The EDC teams that made state represented, winning every game of the final day, which pitted teams that won games in the tournament against each other.

You want to talk players and minutes. I'm talking using the state tournament as the prevailing factor. The EDC was just better.

[The Schwab]

The reason I like it, I have always found it way easier for a school of 300 to compete with a school of 1000+ then it is for a school of 60 to compete with a school of 300 year in and year out. It would also ensure that schools who are currently "B" and reside in big towns with much more access to gym time/competition would have to compete with schools in which the kids have the same type of opportunities.

[Bisonguy06]

Heimer I completely agree with your "super 2", that would make so much more sense in our state.

I have to back up a bit to a comment made much earlier. Heimer is correct - he has spoken at length about wanting this Super 2 over any three class proposal. I portrayed him as a three class guy. What he really wants is the Super 2. My apologies.

I'm OK with debating the Super 2 on its own merits. The conversation took a different turn toward class A basketball, it appears.

Here's one thing that the Super 2 would not do: it would not generate additional interest in class B basketball. You cannot subtract teams, schools and towns from class B and expect the B tournament to grow in attendance and interest. The thread began with a comment on poor attendance for the B girls at the Fargodome. The Super 2 'solution' doesn't fix that 'problem' (the problem that began this whole thread)

We don't do a very good job of posing and solving one problem at a time here, that's my beef. We're all over the map.

[cometdad]

Bison guy - I actually think it might help attendance. When the big town schools (Shiloh, Minot Ryan, Our Redeemers, Trinity) come to games during the season, you only see parents in attendance. No one from Minot, Bismarck, etc. "follows" their team like a smaller town does when there is a successful season happening. I think by Grant County representing region 5 in Fargo that quite a few more seats were filled in the dome than would have been if Shiloh had been the region representative.

[Bisonguy06]

Well then, that right there is a point to debate. I simply disagree. You are pulling 12 of the largest class B schools out of B to form the Super 2, so there are 12 fewer schools interested in the B tournament. They're not attending and, for the most part, not watching on TV.

To your next point, right now I'm just not seeing the public schools following their teams in greater numbers than the parochials. I think they travel about the same. But that's just me.

Meanwhile, you end up replacing a couple big B's with a smaller school at the state tournament. Central Cass isn't part of the B anymore and you get Maple Valley instead, for example. Great for Maple Valley, but in the end, I don't think you fill an equal # of seats.

Make the case for the Super 2 and kick it around. Maybe it's best for the greatest number of people. Maybe it's best for B in terms of fairness. I don't think it's best for the B in terms of attendance, but attendance need not be the top priority.

[heimer]

Have you been to the Barnes County tourney?

I guarantee you you gain fans with Maple Valley over Central Cass. Half of Valley City shows up if Maple Valley is there.

I believe attendance would, at worst, break even, while attendance at A goes way up. To use your analogy, Central Cass rallies when they send their team to state with a major chip on their shoulder ready to finally show the A teams a thing or two.

[Bisonguy06]

Good for Maple Valley. Sounds like they have a great following.

Take most any big public 'B' school. Replace them with a smaller public 'B' school. Attendance goes down at the B, right? What am I missing?

[Bisonguy06]

Heimer, I think your super 2 may have some merit. Its time may come. I think you'll see a move for something new when either an oil boom community (Watford City, Stanley, New Town) or a Fargo metro area community (Central Cass, Kindred) grows above 325. When one school passes 325 with others on the way, you'll have people ready to take a fresh look at new plan. I for one have always said that North Dakota did not have enough of a 'middle' to support three classes or a Super 2. We have big, we have small, but we don't have medium-sized. That may change.

[heimer]

Someone at a school with 100 kids would feel very differently.

[Bisonguy06]

Let's count schools with enrollment 0-200. Then, let's count schools with enrollment 200-400. Finally, count schools with enrollment 400-600. We'd have many, many more small schools than medium sized schools. Not even close.

I'm sure the Central Cass folks would "feel" disadvantaged in your Super 2 plan, too.

Let's set aside these feelings and look at the raw numbers, eh?

[heimer]

We can't look at the raw numbers because you already have some arbitrary number of the minimum for a class in your mind.

We make this work in football, a sport with even fewer teams, and the most entertaining class we have is AA. If it works in football it will work in basketball.

If you're looking for raw numbers, just look at the football plan. The numbers are there, no matter the amount of denial.

[Bisonguy06]

Someone at a school with 100 kids would feel very differently.

Perhaps. Let's ask someone from Milnor to find out. How did their boys do this year, by the way?

[heimer]

http://www.ndhsaa.com/files/13_14_FB_Pl ... umbers.pdf

I didn't get a chance to look at this too closely, but as I see it, if you take the football numbers and assume that female enrollment is roughly 50% of a schools enrollment:

AAA in football would be the top division of A basketball

AA would make the following changes:

Lisbon, E-MV, GBC, and Stanley-Powers Lake out. Standing Rock (true enrollment, no 60% free-and-reduced-meals reduction), and Our Redeemers, Trinity Christian, and Oak Grove take their places (no defined district boundaries). This would be the second division of A.

All else is B.

There's your numbers. You have tried to spin this with your tidy groups in the past. We disregard enrollment for football and it works fine. Plus, you always tell me enrollment isn't everything. This plan puts your theory directly to work. There is a definite middle.

[Bisonguy06]

I've missed you, heimer. 'Round and round we go again.

North Dakota is an open enrollment state. North Dakota public schools admit students outside of their defined district boundaries. You'll need to work on your way of bumping up all the parochials.

I have very little sympathy for Ryan, Trinity, Oak Grove and Shiloh moving up in your Super 2. Fine. But I am totally opposed to any plan that has Williston Trinity Christian and West Fargo playing for the same trophy.