All-State 2011-12

Class B Girls
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Flying Wallenda » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:04 am

Wildcat wrote:The coaches vote on senior athlete of the year. The media votes on all-state.

I love how the coaches can never make a mistake. Why was the third leading scorer on Carrington (who's not a point guard) the Class B senior athlete of the year?

I also love how the media is supposed to take into account how the coaches vote, as if the coaches would ever take into account how the media votes. JMO

Also, Fallyn Freije exploded on the state's biggest stage and gave the state champions their toughest game at state. I wouldn't say she's undeserving.

Agree on all accounts.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby wolves65 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:04 pm

Didn't see either of the Graftons games. This is an award of who has the best stats not a measure of basketball skill. It is not worth it to try and defend either position because both sides lose. This is why teams run up the scores because if you want to get a kid on the all-state you have to have big numbers. Big numbers against bad teams should not get a person on the all-state team. The third leading scorer on the Carrington team was the best player on that team IMO and my guess is that is how the coaches saw it also. If you take the other two girls off that team they were still good but if you took Rosenua out of the game they were a different team.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Wildcat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:10 pm

Your right.

I can't speak to how they were without Rosenau. I can speak to how they did without Thompson.

When Thompson was in foul trouble in the Region 4 semifinals against Midkota and had to come off the floor, how well did Rosenau carry the team?
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Flying Wallenda » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:55 pm

wolves65 wrote:Didn't see either of the Graftons games. This is an award of who has the best stats not a measure of basketball skill. It is not worth it to try and defend either position because both sides lose. This is why teams run up the scores because if you want to get a kid on the all-state you have to have big numbers. Big numbers against bad teams should not get a person on the all-state team. The third leading scorer on the Carrington team was the best player on that team IMO and my guess is that is how the coaches saw it also. If you take the other two girls off that team they were still good but if you took Rosenua out of the game they were a different team.

Well since you didn't see them play Grafton apparently you traveled to CV to watch them play Central Cass and Northern Cass since that's the only other two games they lost....kind of hard to figure that one unless you're a huge region I fan:) The young Henningsgard averaged about 18 a game...not huge numbers and anyone who knows coach Sondrol knows he's the last guy in the state who would run up a score. Did you see her basically shut out Thompson's best player on mutiple occasions? That didn't wind up in the box score. I'm guessing she also led the team in rebounding..again, not in the box score. As for big numbers against bad teams, CV played: Grafton twice, Central Cass, Northern Cass, Thompson 3 times, Hatton-Northwood, Midkota, etc....she's very deserving. AS WAS ROSENAU(who I do believe should have made it)...as I said, every year good players get left off. To say that it was because of "lazy media" or "running up scores", etc, to me isn't fair. Especially when you call out HS girls on a forumn. All girls on the team deserved....many not on the team deserved it as well. Happens every year.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Indy5 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:18 pm

Wildcat wrote:Your right.

I can't speak to how they were without Rosenau. I can speak to how they did without Thompson.

When Thompson was in foul trouble in the Region 4 semifinals against Midkota and had to come off the floor, how well did Rosenau carry the team?

Didn't they go undefeated earlier in the year when Thompson was hurt?
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby wolves65 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:38 pm

I am not calling out any kid I am calling out the system that selects the teams. All the girls are good players on this roster and they can be proud of there accomplishments. There is no good system. In volleyball it is done by the coaches and that has its issues based on politics in the regions and who goes the state tournament because that is where they vote.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Flying Wallenda » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:24 pm

wolves65 wrote:I am not calling out any kid I am calling out the system that selects the teams. All the girls are good players on this roster and they can be proud of there accomplishments. There is no good system. In volleyball it is done by the coaches and that has its issues based on politics in the regions and who goes the state tournament because that is where they vote.

Well when you said, "Also no girls team deserves 2 girls on this roster. Pick one and move on because if a girls team has two all-staters in class B they should dominate and neither beach or Central Valley could be considered dominate teams. That is just lazy media work", plus the part about Freije not even making it if LAE doesn't make the state, then saying coaches run up the score against zero competition sure made it sound as though you were calling out Henningsgard, Farvsfeet, and Freije. Again, I think Rosenau should have made it, but I sure feel the girls who did were worthy. The media from Region II, IV and VII must have thought so as well, as they are the ones that presumably voted on this award after seeing those girls from the respective regions play multiple times. I have heard of Freije for two years, it wasn't like she came out of nowhere. Henningsgard was a key cog in CV making the state last year as was Fasrfeet, so its not like they don't have some credentials in this thing. As I've said three times now, the girls selected deserved it, as did a few that weren't selected.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby NoIinTeam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:03 am

Wildcat,

I guess i didn't understand the point you were trying to make when you questioned the Senior athlete of the year being the third leading scorer on her team. If someone is a great athlete and plays a great team game, I would think that would be a good definition of senior athlete of the year. Someone who makes their team better by great hustle, defense and other things that go unnoticed on the stat sheet would probably be another good definition of senior athlete of the year.
Like I said, maybe I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Sometimes I think everyone spends too much time looking at stats and points and not enough time looking at the game as a whole.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Wildcat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:51 pm

NoIinTeam wrote:Wildcat,

I guess i didn't understand the point you were trying to make when you questioned the Senior athlete of the year being the third leading scorer on her team. If someone is a great athlete and plays a great team game, I would think that would be a good definition of senior athlete of the year. Someone who makes their team better by great hustle, defense and other things that go unnoticed on the stat sheet would probably be another good definition of senior athlete of the year.
Like I said, maybe I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.
Sometimes I think everyone spends too much time looking at stats and points and not enough time looking at the game as a whole.


That is the definition of at least 50 girls in the state who make their team better and play on good teams, and they work hard.

My point is that people are assuming that the Class B state senior athlete of the year has to be all-state, so when the coaches vote Class B state senior athlete of the year, people think it's an automatic bid for all-state, and that's not true. Apparently, that's the way the media felt. I don't necessarily agree with media even voting on all-state, but I guess I can understand why Rosenau didn't make it.

Sierra Rosenau is a very deserving player of the honor she got, and not only is she fun to watch, but she works her tail off doing it. But it's hard to make a case for a girl who only averaged 11 points a game whose not a point guard, IMO. Especially when that player is third on their own team in scoring.

A top 15 player in state though? The coaches seem to think so, but the media didn't. I guess I really don't have a problem with Rosenau making it or not making it. The senior class this year in Class B was very thin.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby NoIinTeam » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:55 pm

If senior ATHLETE of the year should be based on just scoring I guess they should change the title to "senior high scorer of the year".
To me it doesn't matter if she is the third highest scorer on her own team or not. Maybe the coaches actually understood that her game was an all around effort regardless of points scored. Maybe her teammates would not have scored more than her if she would have focused on more offense for herself than the whole all around game. Maybe Carrington would not have been as strong as they were if Rosenau would have thought about scoring 18-20 points a game instead of being a great athlete with a complete game. Sure there are other girls in the state who try as hard as her. But maybe they are not as important to their particular team as Rosenau was to hers. JMHO
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Wildcat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:08 pm

I never said she wasn't worthy and that she didn't matter, but production counts for something. Things on paper do matter i.e. points, rebounds, assists, steals. Those things DO help make great players. People get so caught up in saying "stats don't matter, points aren't everything" that they forget that those other stats I mentioned DO matter for great players. They're not everything, but they ARE something.

You're trying to say her heart makes her worthy, and I'm saying I already think she's worthy. You won't see me say that she didn't deserve that award, because that's not how I feel.

I don't have any interest in continuing to talk about Rosenau. Her efforts speak for themselves. My main point is that the media felt she wasn't all-state, but the coaches felt she was senior player of the year, and they're two differing opinions and neither one is crazy, IMO.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby NoIinTeam » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:09 am

Wildcat,

I would also like to no longer continue the Rosenau conversation. I agree with the coaches and not the media. Maybe the coaches see more of the whole game, where the media maybe sees more of the box scores and highlghts on TV.

I didn't say she was worthy for just her heart. I said she was worthy because of her all around game and not just points scored.

This is all good b-ball conversation and for what it's worth, I've only seen her play a handful of games. I just like to converse about different thoughts and ideas brought up on this board.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby thewanderer » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:47 pm

so are you telling me this girl from Carrington was the ND senior athlete of the year and didnt make the all state team for 2012?
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:11 pm

thewanderer wrote:so are you telling me this girl from Carrington was the ND senior athlete of the year and didnt make the all state team for 2012?


That's what has been discussed on the previous posts
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby coolhandluke » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:58 pm

Although the media vote on this all-state thing - many of them have only the stats to go by - so we can't fault them for that. What we can say though not mentioned so far is the fact that many of these girls have been promoted by their coaches, parents and local media to the point that the only names the media hears/knows throughout their careers are those of certain girls, thus many other deserving ones get put into the shadows until they show up the chosen ones themselves. If we were at all able to study the stats when certain players play against the power teams during their seasons, not just in the blowouts where many players seem to shine (and pad their stats), but in close games - IMHO you'd see the cream rise to the top, the real players. Yet, the award is what it is, no changing that, and most if not all deserve to be there. Maybe it is time to make all-state disappear, if it is such a big deal to everyone. You could probably if you want to still name all-tournament teams, a miss basketball and so on with less argument, and be satisfied with that. Just a thought.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby BoxoutBoy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:40 pm

This discussion has changed back to what many posts have mentioned. One problem with this logic is the small school athlete that many claim to be padding their stats! I believe that is very difficult when they are constantly double or triple teamed, they can in no way get in foul trouble or the team has no chance at all in winning. That player must handle ball, post up when needed, guard the other teams best player, take the last second shot, and at best hope for a season close to 50/50 in wins and loses. The media does not follow that player regardless of stats - that player will not make it to state and may not make it to regions. Very difficult to be all tournament, Miss basketball, or what ever stat that is out their. All of this discussion works for the bigger class B schools - the smaller schools are once again left out! All that player has is stats - and voting on those stats is not at all wrong. I don't like the logic of the bigger school athletes sitting out much of the game when there is a blow out. I have witnessed many times the big school up by 20 or more and the starters still in the game until the very end.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Gray50 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:15 pm

Fallyn Freije was 1st team because she showed up for every single game. Both offensively and defensively. She may have been outplayed at times but she did not give up. Her performance at the State Tourney put her over the top to be on the All State team. How many girls or boys pull down 20 rebounds in a game? Some of those left off or even a 2nd teamer didn't always come to play every game. Witnessed that alot.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Home » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:10 pm

scc wrote:
wolves65 wrote:the hardest part about reading girls basketball is there is a much bigger talent gap from the top teams to the bottoms compared to the boys B and A squads. You have alot of girls playing on good teams that get maybe 2 quarters so they don't have the stats and they get penalized for that fact. Also no girls team deserves 2 girls on this roster. Pick one and move on because if a girls team has two all-staters in class B they should dominate and neither beach or Central Valley could be considered dominate teams. That is just lazy media work. Your MVP and Senior Player of the year don't make it is a bit of a head scratcher. You can't say anything about any the kids on any of these teams because they had nothing to do with the process.

MVP is a tournament award. All-State is a season award. Senior athlete is voted by the coaches.





isn't tournament play part of your season? So what you are saying is that tournament play doesn't count. They need to include every game including post season games. I agree that the MVP and senior player should have been on the all-state team.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Home » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:21 pm

old#63 wrote:I'm also quite sure that none of Grafton's players would trade a state championship trophy for any individual honor.

But, there are always things to consider. I think you can make the arguement for a player such as Gaustad from Grafton to be on the second team. She probably only averaged 20 minutes per game, because Grafton was so dominant in district play. Also, she was on such a balanced team in both scoring and rebounding.

But, I suppose that offsetting that, you can say she had the opportunity to score more because her teammates drew away some defense.

I'm sure a lot of girls from various teams around the state are in the same boat.

Bottom line, All-State is subjective. Congrats to all who made it.... a well deserved honor. But, for all the girls who are on it, there a just as many who could have been.


So you say that Gaustad could have on the second team but one sentence later you said that she was on a well balanced team. So why her and not any of the other starters? JW
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:06 am

(Some stats added...)

First Team
Spanky Clayton (Washburn) - 23 ppg, 6 rpg
Olivia Johnson (Richland) - 20.4 ppg, 13.7 rpg
Kayln Schneider (Linton-HMB) - 17 ppg, 4.9 rpg
Ashley Bentz (Grant County) - 20.4 ppg, 8.8 rpg
Taylor Henningsgard (Central Valley) - 17.9 ppg, 6 rpg
Fallyn Freije (Lakota-Adams-Edmore) - 21.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg

Second Team
Hannah Breske (Central Cass) - 15.9 ppg, 4.2 rpg
Kelcee Dykins (Beach) - 17.7 ppg, 7.9 rpg
Sheridon Dewald (Napleon) - 16.8 ppg, 6.1 rpg
Hailee Farstveet (Beach) - 13.2 ppg, 6.9 rpg
McKayla Haugeberg (Watford City) - 13.7 ppg, 5.2 rpg
Kennedy Henningsgard (Central Valley) - 17.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg
Brandy Messner (Dakota Prairie) - 21 ppg, 10.9 rpg
Hannah Stewart (Bishop Ryan) - 19.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg
Emily Thompson (Carrington) - 13.8 ppg, 6.5 rpg
Emily Wolf (New Salem-Almont) - 16.6 ppg, 10.9 rpg
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby NoIinTeam » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:49 am

The whole process is not a perfect one for kids no matter if they are from a large school or a small school. Maybe large schools do get a little more media attention. At the same time, a girl scoring 20 plus points may get more attention than she deserves.
Sometimes an athlete with just above average stats make an all state team. People need to look at the situation that particular athlete is in. You may have a girl who averages 14 points a game for a team loaded with good players. Put her on a team with no other stars and she may average over 20/game. Or switch it around and take the girl who averages 20/game and be the only good player for her team. Put her on a team with a group of good players and you may see her stats go way down.

Stats do count, but they don't always reflect how good a player really is. There could be small school girls who get overlooked because they don't get the media attention, and there could be large school girls who get overlooked because they don't have the stats because they were part of a team of good players.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby scoobyx2 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:25 am

Again, there are too many players listed. There should be 5 on the 1st team and 5 on the 2nd team. The decision would be difficult to make, other factors would be considered because they would all have good stats, and it would be unlikely that any team would have multiple selections unless it was undisputable.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby old#63 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:15 am

Home wrote:
old#63 wrote:I'm also quite sure that none of Grafton's players would trade a state championship trophy for any individual honor.

But, there are always things to consider. I think you can make the arguement for a player such as Gaustad from Grafton to be on the second team. She probably only averaged 20 minutes per game, because Grafton was so dominant in district play. Also, she was on such a balanced team in both scoring and rebounding.

But, I suppose that offsetting that, you can say she had the opportunity to score more because her teammates drew away some defense.

I'm sure a lot of girls from various teams around the state are in the same boat.

Bottom line, All-State is subjective. Congrats to all who made it.... a well deserved honor. But, for all the girls who are on it, there a just as many who could have been.


So you say that Gaustad could have on the second team but one sentence later you said that she was on a well balanced team. So why her and not any of the other starters? JW

All state to me is based on an entire body of work for the whole season (maybe even a whole career), and Gaustad had just a little better numbers, with basically the same playing time. Certainly, if I could put two on from Grafton, I'd put Hannah Thompson on as well. But Gaustad had a couple more points, a couple more rebounds, a couple more steals, and similar assists per game compared to Thompson. Close call, but I think you have to give the advantage to Gaustad. And DeSautel and Cassie Thompson from Grafton were very good players, but I don't think I would rate them above others already on the list. It's like choosing teams for a pickup game, which girl would you pick first. From Grafton's girls, I'd pick Gaustad. Somebody else might have a different idea. :)

But, Hannah had one heck of a state tourney! 8) It was nice to see her get MVP.
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:33 am

Breske only averages 4 RPG? wow! considering her length and athleticism
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Re: All-State 2011-12

Postby NoIinTeam » Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:28 pm

If the rebounding stat on Breske is true, yes she could maybe improve her rebounding a bit. Her style and game is more like a wing type player though. On her particular team there were 2 other girls that did more of the rebounding. Looking at rebounding stats, the one that would stand out more to me would be Thompson from Carrington. Over 6' tall and playing strictly inside and just over 6 rebounds per game.
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