#3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby old#63 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:03 pm

ibhun10 wrote:
old#63 wrote:
ibhun10 wrote:
blindside2 wrote:When the starters left the game Grafton was up 15. Hanna and Ali made big three point shots. I wouldn't bet against the Grafton girls at home.


The score was not a good a representation of the game - in the 2nd quarter, Grafton was up by 20 and three starters were on the bench for the last 3:20 of the quarter. They could have really put them away then. Then Grafton coach did not have them ready to play to start the third quarter, knowing CC would try to make a run.


Just because Grafton had 3 of their starters on the bench doesn't mean that they backed off in the first half. Bringing in Burns, Feltman, and Jiskra isn't exactly sending in the scrubs. They are all excellent ball players and are part of the 8 or 9 player rotation that Grafton usually runs. Grafton won the game easily, but don't make it sound like they could have won by 40 if they hadn't backed off.


63 - you are joking right????? You made my point exactly with your comments - With three starters on the bench, Grafton DID NOT increase their lead. Who gave them the big lead - Nothing against Burns, Fletman or Jiskra - they are all good players and play a huge roll on the Grafton team. Point is still the starting 5 built up the lead - the roll players maintained it (didn't build it up) That's what roll players do!!!! I didn't mean to make it sound like they would win by 40. But I think 20 would have been a better representation of how the game went.

Grafton always rotates 8 or so girls for the entire game. This game was no different. Grafton runs a full court defense and plays hard transition basketball. You don't use that type of stategy and leave the same 5 girls on the floor for the whole game. You suggest that Grafton should have played their starters for the last 3 minutes of the first half instead of playing some bench players. I suggest that is something like saying that a hockey team should play the same 3 starting forwards for the whole game. Doesn't work. No one can be in that good of shape. You need to rotate.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby ClassBalways » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:03 pm

NodakQ2 wrote:Not to take anything away from Grafton, and I wasn't there...but wouldn't most of the top 10 teams beat CC if Dixon and Breske weren't on the floor as much as they should be?

Yes, part of the game, but the picture just became more clear. They are a HUGE part of that team.



People used to say the same thing about Taylor Kraft and she is no longer there. It's a team effort.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby old#63 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:20 pm

ClassBalways wrote:I don't believe anyone is trying to say that CC would have beaten Grafton. Grafton played a good game and deserved to win. Grafton wanted it more you could tell by how they came out of the gate. BUT when there are 3 refs on the floor then the game would have been better. You certainly can't say any different, but you will.

I don't mean to imply that reffing is not a big part of games, but it always has been. I've been going to ball games for 40 years and you always hear the same things when the game is over. "did you see that stupid call or how the heck didn't they see that". Do refs blow calls?....absolutely. But I go back to what my old high school coach used to tell me, "Play good enough so that it won't matter if the refs don't call it right."
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby ClassBalways » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:28 pm

old#63 wrote:
ClassBalways wrote:I don't believe anyone is trying to say that CC would have beaten Grafton. Grafton played a good game and deserved to win. Grafton wanted it more you could tell by how they came out of the gate. BUT when there are 3 refs on the floor then the game would have been better. You certainly can't say any different, but you will.

I don't mean to imply that reffing is not a big part of games, but it always has been. I've been going to ball games for 40 years and you always hear the same things when the game is over. "did you see that stupid call or how the heck didn't they see that". Do refs blow calls?....absolutely. But I go back to what my old high school coach used to tell me, "Play good enough so that it won't matter if the refs don't call it right."



Totally Agree! It just would have been a better game to "watch" if it was called better, that's all. Grafton earned then win regardless.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby wolves65 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:07 pm

IF, thompson gets in any trouble this team is not as good. She is the key to this team down the road.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby coolhandluke » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:08 pm

These dumb a.. back and forth topics are ruining preps. Let's just voice pure opinions, stop the bickering. I know this, no, I know that, BS. The kids for the most part nowadays respect/accept the sport and the refs much better than most. Listen to the idiotic folks that said when a Grafton fan even mentioned they thought the refs during the girls Carrington game may have changed the game outcome with their non-calls, they were a "whiner," and the only think you'll learn is that they don't like Grafton. It really doesn't matter what any of us think, like, or purport to know. You never know. Sports is that way. Refereeing on occasion influences games, that's too bad. But the true athlete just needs to know in their own heart, in the spirit of the game, they did their best. We've all had bad calls take away a game. Who cares? You can't do anything about it. Play if you like the game, don't if you've had enough. A win can't be changed. I hate some calls, I hate some refs, they don't like me much either, but I've learned that when It's over, we've all lost some and won some, and although the wins are sweeter, the competing was great. Get over it. Once we stop the stupidity we'll all become better people and better "sports." Later.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby StraightShooter » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:33 pm

old#63 wrote:
StraightShooter wrote:
old#63 wrote:I don't think reffing had a major impact on the outcome of girls games.


Then you either weren't actually at the game, or you weren't watching.

old#63 wrote:Keep in mind that in games that are played as fast and wild as these, with all the quickness and action, it's tougher to ref. And these guys that ref aren't exactly getting rich doing it.


:roll:

So, you feel that with a few different calls that the CC girls would have beaten Grafton? Then apparently, my friend, you must not have seen the same game I did. And roll your eyes at me all you want, but I stand by my comments. Reffing isn't easy, and to expect that every single call is going to be made perfectly is rediculous. I don't know of any ref that goes into a game with the idea that he intends to make some poor calls. Does it happen? Certainly. But in the CC vs. Grafton girls game were there enough poor calls that would have made CC win? You can't be serious.


Never said CC would have beaten Grafton with better officiating. But to say that the officiating in this game didn't have an impact on the game is absurd.

I cannot stand the argument/excuse of "it's hard to ref" or "if you think it's so easy, why don't you do it" on behalf of bad refereeing. I don't expect every call to be made correctly, but this game was so physical (especially on drives to the basket and shots underneath) it was ridiculous. Yet, little ticky tack junk on the perimeter was called a foul. I can live with a hand check out on the perimeter or whatever, but when an offensive player is driving to the basket and the defender is bodying them the entire way, it's a foul. When players are holding and moving on screens, it is a foul. When a defender gets burned on defense and tries to reach back around and poke the ball away, it's not a clean strip EVERYTIME. That's impossible to do. The 3 official thing needs to go away.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby scoobyx2 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:21 pm

It seems that no one is disputing that Grafton outright beat CC so does Grafton and Kindred move up to 2 and 3?
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby scoobyx2 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:26 pm

Actually, Kindred should be 1 w/ Carrington and Grafton fighting for 2.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby NodakQ2 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:50 pm

JMO: Kindred will be one, Carrington two and Grafton three. With CC getting beat, Kindred will pull their first place votes from last week and be the new #1. We'll see...
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:52 pm

NodakQ2 wrote:JMO: Kindred will be one, Carrington two and Grafton three. With CC getting beat, Kindred will pull their first place votes from last week and be the new #1. We'll see...


Carrington is the #1, Kindred #2 (1 vote behind), Grafton #3...Central Cass drops to #5...polls are posted
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby NodakQ2 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:53 pm

I see it posted...

#1 Carrington
#2 Kindred
#3 Grafton

5 first place votes for both Carrington and Kindred.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby old#63 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:49 am

StraightShooter wrote:
old#63 wrote:
StraightShooter wrote:
old#63 wrote:I don't think reffing had a major impact on the outcome of girls games.


Then you either weren't actually at the game, or you weren't watching.

old#63 wrote:Keep in mind that in games that are played as fast and wild as these, with all the quickness and action, it's tougher to ref. And these guys that ref aren't exactly getting rich doing it.


:roll:

So, you feel that with a few different calls that the CC girls would have beaten Grafton? Then apparently, my friend, you must not have seen the same game I did. And roll your eyes at me all you want, but I stand by my comments. Reffing isn't easy, and to expect that every single call is going to be made perfectly is rediculous. I don't know of any ref that goes into a game with the idea that he intends to make some poor calls. Does it happen? Certainly. But in the CC vs. Grafton girls game were there enough poor calls that would have made CC win? You can't be serious.


Never said CC would have beaten Grafton with better officiating. But to say that the officiating in this game didn't have an impact on the game is absurd.

I cannot stand the argument/excuse of "it's hard to ref" or "if you think it's so easy, why don't you do it" on behalf of bad refereeing. I don't expect every call to be made correctly, but this game was so physical (especially on drives to the basket and shots underneath) it was ridiculous. Yet, little ticky tack junk on the perimeter was called a foul. I can live with a hand check out on the perimeter or whatever, but when an offensive player is driving to the basket and the defender is bodying them the entire way, it's a foul. When players are holding and moving on screens, it is a foul. When a defender gets burned on defense and tries to reach back around and poke the ball away, it's not a clean strip EVERYTIME. That's impossible to do. The 3 official thing needs to go away.

I guess I owe you an apology. I think we are getting hung up on the verbage of what we both mean. Obviously I agree with you that reffing has an impact on every game. My comment simply said that there were not enough officiating errors in this game to say that it would have affected who was the eventual winner. I think the 3 official thing is here to stay, however. Almost every official I have talked to likes it. Less movement needed by officials to keep up with the action and ball movement. 50+ year old officials just aren't going to be able to keep up with 16 year old kids in transition. I will say though, that since ND went away from having girls basketball in the fall and went to a 3 official system, it has "watered down" the quality of officials that are available. Most AD's will tell you it's a constant struggle to find officiating.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby coolhandluke » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:31 pm

Hey straight shooter - did your comments about the officials calling ticky-tack fouls but not the moving screens, riding the girl etc. apply to Grafton, both teams, or Central Cass? Seems like you are basically implying Grafton was the culprit, yet don't come out and say it so I just don't know if I'm reading into it. This is kind of a dead topic anyway, it now is simply a win for one team. We all must agree that officiating affects game outcomes, and live with it. Yes, you can play through it or attempt to, but oftentimes the way a game is called will unintentionally favor one team. If you watch the state tournament from last year, in no way could a couple of the teams even compete there without their illegal screens, hooking inside etc., being called. I don't think there is one game ever played, that either the losing team or winning team or their wonderful fans couldn't blame the officials for something. It would be cool to sit down together as fans after the game, not to argue, but to simply watch the film from the games we all talk about, and honestly see how bad it really is, towards both teams on the floor, not just your favorite winning team. Maybe we'd all learn something.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby coach » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:00 pm

Just something I had read on a website dedicated to basketball and hope this would clear some of the thoughts about Ref's in a game ---

"Although guys in striped shirts often seem as though they must be from some other planet because they call things on you that you don’t even come vaguely close to doing, referees are actually human beings subject to the same motivations and inclinations as players and coaches. Referees attempt to “call ’em as they see ’em.” They make the easy calls correctly because even a referee intent on cheating wouldn’t want to demonstrate that openly, and they have difficulty with the hard calls.

When the game is close near the end, they get nervous just like players, and they are likely to blow their whistles quickly at anything that doesn’t look quite right. When they are getting a lot of criticism, they are likely to get angry and want to get back at those who are criticizing them, and they may also question themselves. “Was he right or was I?” If they make a call that they realize is probably wrong, they will have a tendency to want to make up for it by watching the other team a bit more closely—not to cheat, but to make sure they don’t let anything slide on that side.

Above all, and despite the fact that coaches, players and particularly fans use referees as scapegoats and blame them for everything, 95% of the referees do their very best to be fair, maybe even more than that. Not very often does a referee come to a game with the purpose of cheating for a particular team. Most players finish their whole careers without ever having had a referee with that intention. Some may be a bit more swayed by fans and circumstances than others, but they don’t come to cheat. They would all like to leave knowing that no one hates them and that everyone feels the game was refereed fairly.

In view of all this, it is appalling that players go through game after game, season after season, complaining to referees. Don’t you understand that the more you complain, the greater is the referee’s tendency to notice the violations you commit? That should be clear. The more you play with matches, the better your chance of getting burned. The more you come to the referee’s attention, the better your chance of hearing the whistle blow.

If you are in the habit of questioning the referee’s calls, he is certainly going to want to show you that he knows what he is doing.

The result will be that every time you even begin to shuffle your feet or begin to make contact with someone, he is going to blow that whistle. On the other hand, if you are a gentleman, if you are in the habit of saying nothing and giving the impression that you are a hard worker, all business and a good solid basketball player, he will not be looking to call anything on you, and he may avoid calling something if he can. Because of human nature, intelligence should tell you that it will pay to act like a good sport, to give the referee a good impression of you and to run and get the ball for the referee if it rolls away and so on. Call them “brownie points” if you like, but why not?

Some day in a big game—when there is a play where it isn’t quite clear “Is it a foot shuffle or isn’t it? Is it a charge or a block?”—you will get the break if you have acted as an athlete should. And the call will go against you if you have been a complainer or a hot head. You can call that cheating if you like, but that is simply human nature. You would be wise to take advantage of it."
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby bequickdonthurry » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:24 pm

to Coach:

That just may have been the best thing I've ever read here. Thank you.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby maddog1971 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:24 am

If Central Cass gets ref's that call the game really close they can play with anybody. Hanna is a great ball player but she flops with the best as far as I have seen. If she is shooting and gets touched in anyway she is on the ground. Now if the ref's let aggressive defense play CC will not make it to state.
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Re: #3 Central Cass @ #4 Grafton (2/4/12)

Postby wolves65 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:30 pm

Agressive defense is pushing and hacking which favors Kindred is what you are saying. I have watched her for years and she is not a flopper. She flopped elbows first into the ground in Grafton when #2 took her legs out and no call.
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