why not add a class?

[Run4Fun2009]

We could put together a pretty long list of small schools that are expected to contend for a Regional championship this year on the boys side.

I haven't even been following the season all that closely, but I know that Maple Valley will be in the hunt in Region 1 and Cavalier in Region 2.

Region 3 doesn't have a truly "Big" class B school in it, so they'll be sending a small school as their representative. Right now, tiny Strasburg-Zeeland is undefeated.

Region 4 contenders include North Star and Four Winds.

Region 5 has Turtle Lake-Mercer as a slight favorite right now, and Berthold will be in the hunt in Region 6 again.

We know that the big schools are favored in Region 7, but Heart River is capable of pulling an upset and Mott-Regent is coming on strong.

Trenton and Powers Lake are the favorites in Region 8.

Look at the landscape. It is littered with competitive small schools.

Region 1 has Milnor
Region 5 has Grant County
Region 6 has DL-B (I don't know if that is considered small school though)

There are plenty of small schools competing very well

[Mike Ditka]

Heart River is one of the largest co-ops in Region 7....and Mott Regent is a 25 point under compared to Trinity and Beulah....especially on a neutral floor...or Trinity's floor for that matter.

[Mike Ditka]

Also....for every small school that can compete....there are 5 that can hardly win a game. So making a list of 5 small competitive schools doesnt prove a point. Its over all balance....and no we do not have it. Go ask Max what it is like to play Beulah...

[3sportfan]

this is the boys side but go ask the Beulah girls what it was like to play the Beach girls, big school doesn't always mean great programs, most all schools have their good and bad years boys and girls alike, i say leave it the way it is.

[Bisonguy06]

I could be wrong Ditka, but I don't think the state will be screaming for a three class system if Heart River wins Region 7 this year. Ditto DesLacs Burlington in Region 6. Yes, these are medium sized schools, but they are not part of the so-called "problem" in class B.

[Mike Ditka]

If a girls program that is the size of Beulah is struggling there is an issue...bottom line. As for Heart River...Belfield and South Heart shouldnt even be combined in basketball....they are strictly to compete with the big schools in region 7. Both schools alone are bigger than many in the state.

[Indy5]

Both schools alone are bigger than many in the state.

This is just simply not true. I may be wrong but I believe I remember seeing their combined numbers at like 170 a year or two ago. That makes them a medium sized school and that means that alone they'd both be quite small.

Even if that's not the right number. If they are both bigger than many in the state alone, then their coop would be flirting with the enrollment cutoff

[classB4ever]

Region representatives for the past 13 years (Since 2000):

Region 1: 8 teams.
Oak Grove (4), Central Cass (2), Kindred (2), Lisbon, Richland, Hankinson, Milnor, North Sargent

Region 2: 6 teams.
MPCG (4), Grafton (3), Cavalier (2), North Border (2), Park River, Dakota Prairie

Region 3: 8 teams.
Linton (6),Lamoure, LMM, Wilton or (WTPR), Strasburg, PBK, BCN, Kidder County

Region 4: 6 teams.
Cando/Northstar (4), New Rockford (3), Four Winds (3), Carrington, Wells County, Sheyenne/Minnewauken

Region 5: 6 teams.
Shiloh Christian (6), TLM (2), Standing Rock (2), Center, Flasher, WTPR or (Wilton)

Region 6: 5 teams.
Bishop Ryan (6), Berthold (4), Bottineau, Westhope/Newburg, Surrey

Region 7: 5 teams.
Dickinson Trinity (8), Beulah (2), Scranton, Mott/Regent, Bowman County

Region 8: 7 teams.
Watford City (3), Trinity Christian (2), Divide County (2), Mandaree (2), Parshall (2), New Town, Trenton

One can interpret this information many ways. Region 1, has had 8 different representatives and is probably loaded with the biggest schools. Some regions have seen more dominant programs. This could be contributed to size or good bb programs. There is no definitive answer. I have personally been part of this discussion in the past and IMO, there is not a better alternative at this time to our current system.

[Mike Ditka]

Indy check your numbers before saying something I say isn't true. Combined they are at 200 and only growing, driven through Belfield or South Heart lately? They will grow combined by 50-100 kids next year...that comes straight from an administrator in South Heart. Around 120 at Belfield and 80 at South Heart right now. Their competition in Dist. 13 is as follows.

Beach 174, Bowman Cty 140, Hettinger-Scranton 108, Mott-Regent 100, New England 50.

If what we are saying on this thread is true...that small schools compete with larger schools consistently there is no reason they should be combined...that is "simply TRUE."

Bottom line...it is completely unfair for a school of 50-100 to compete with a school of 200-300. I don't have the answer to how it should be fixed....but I can confidently say that it is a system that isn't fair to the smaller schools. I see no argument for what I just said....

[lovwatchingsports]

Regardless how you feel about this, it would work! People will go to state a support their teams. It works in football, it could work in basketball.JMO

[winner-within]

We do not need 3 classes for the same reason not everyone needs a ribbon. Yes, in many small schools the reality is that getting to state is not a realistic goal most years. In region 7, when you get that group of dedicated and talented kids in your small school, you have to take advantage of it and beat a Beulah, Trinity, or Hazen. There will be very few times that all 3 of those teams will be down, but that is what makes athletics fun. Competitors want to compete and win or lose they will live with it, but it is the competition that drives them; not a trip to a state tournament.
As for building a program, there are many great programs out there where a .500 season is most typical, but every 5-6 years they have a run at the regional championship. The coaching fraternity knows which coaches can be taken advantage of and which you know will be fundamentally sound each and every time you play them regardless of the talent level of their players. We have all known coaches who get to the state tournament despite their coaching ability, and we all have known coaches that have never been there but are great, great coaches. We cannot judge our coaches and programs by just wins and loses. They must be judged also by their character and how hard they work at their craft. Do they give their athletes their best chance at winning? That is what is important. Coaches can only control how their kids play. They cannot control the fact that sometimes the opposite team is also well coached and just had better players.
North Dakota does not need a 3 class system. It needs to continue to produce hard working dedicated student-athletes. All athletes would love the opportunity to play in a state tournament, but it needs to remain a goal that when achieved means something. We need to continue teaching our kids to compete for the sense of pride, not for the ribbon.

Precisely what I have been saying but you put it in a good storybook reference....I would add also, what I've been advocating for and that is to move forward with any capable, sensible and student advantage Consolidation ...

[The Schwab]

Then the privates could open up the doors to more Catholics or Lutherans and pump up their enrollments to compete with the schools who consolidate up.....and the ones that are froze in Class A as we speak.

Can everyone in the world stop being idiots and actually pay attention sometime when someone says what I'm about to say. Private schools do not limit enrollment. I'll repeat, private schools do not limit enrollment. These schools are almost all in the lower half of the enrollments. Some are running out of kids as we speak. They take anyone who will come. And it's not like they are quick to expell or anything like that either. They are desperate for kids.

The top 4 schools below are the ones that compete year in and year out for championships, of those which ones would be in the bottom half of the enrollment?? Maybe shiloh? And the other two might be in the bottom half of enrollment numbers but haven't been consistently competitive in the past 10 years.

Bishop Ryan has 194 students in 9-12 (48.5 per grade), Dickinson Trinity 245 kids in 7-12 (40.8 per grade) Oak Grove 199 students 7-12 (33.2 per grade),Shiloh Christian 90 kids in 9-12 (22.5 per grade) Our Redeemers 99 students in 7-12 (16.5 per grade), Williston Trinity Christian 84 kids 7-12 (14 per grade)

[NDplayin]

ND nailed this one the head

Thanks

[Run4Fun2009]

Then the privates could open up the doors to more Catholics or Lutherans and pump up their enrollments to compete with the schools who consolidate up.....and the ones that are froze in Class A as we speak.

Can everyone in the world stop being idiots and actually pay attention sometime when someone says what I'm about to say. Private schools do not limit enrollment. I'll repeat, private schools do not limit enrollment. These schools are almost all in the lower half of the enrollments. Some are running out of kids as we speak. They take anyone who will come. And it's not like they are quick to expell or anything like that either. They are desperate for kids.

The top 4 schools below are the ones that compete year in and year out for championships, of those which ones would be in the bottom half of the enrollment?? Maybe shiloh? And the other two might be in the bottom half of enrollment numbers but haven't been consistently competitive in the past 10 years.

Bishop Ryan has 194 students in 9-12 (48.5 per grade), Dickinson Trinity 245 kids in 7-12 (40.8 per grade) Oak Grove 199 students 7-12 (33.2 per grade),Shiloh Christian 90 kids in 9-12 (22.5 per grade) Our Redeemers 99 students in 7-12 (16.5 per grade), Williston Trinity Christian 84 kids 7-12 (14 per grade)

Just to point out since if they did an enrollment cutoff I'm sure it would be within the high school grades (9-12). Then, Oak Grove's 9-12 enrollment numbers would be about 130 students. This then would drop DT, ORCS & WTC's numbers also (ORCS & WTC are already low so it wouldn't change the perspective).

[NDplayin]

Indy check your numbers before saying something I say isn't true. Combined they are at 200 and only growing, driven through Belfield or South Heart lately? They will grow combined by 50-100 kids next year...that comes straight from an administrator in South Heart. Around 120 at Belfield and 80 at South Heart right now. Their competition in Dist. 13 is as follows.

Beach 174, Bowman Cty 140, Hettinger-Scranton 108, Mott-Regent 100, New England 50.

If what we are saying on this thread is true...that small schools compete with larger schools consistently there is no reason they should be combined...that is "simply TRUE."

Bottom line...it is completely unfair for a school of 50-100 to compete with a school of 200-300. I don't have the answer to how it should be fixed....but I can confidently say that it is a system that isn't fair to the smaller schools. I see no argument for what I just said....

Whoa Mike. I think you better be the one to check your numbers before you go calling someone out. All this information is available on the internet and you are off base. I don't think you messed it up intentionally, but I think you may have been mislead by the difference between 9-12 enrollment and 7-12 enrollment.

When you convert Heart River's 7-12 enrollment into 9-12, they have a combined enrollment of right about 160. Furthermore, Beach is at 110, Hettinger/Scranton about 120, and Mott-Regent 68. Speaking of which, did you bring up the fact that Mott-Regent (68) just beat Hazen (185) last week- or is that another one of those conveniently ignored facts?

Also, Heart River didn't co-op to compete with the "bigs." They co-opped because Belfield, despite having the higher enrollment, was struggling with participation numbers enough to even have JV teams. Once again, enrollment is only one of many factors into the type of program you've built. I suppose the propaganda of saying it the other way sure does make your argument appear better.

Again 3 class supporters consistently ignore the objective, rational side of the argument, and they continue to attempt lubricating the gears of change with the tears from their emotional weeping because their team hasn't built the type of program many other schools of comparable enrollments have.

[Flip]

When you convert Heart River's 7-12 enrollment into 9-12, they have a combined enrollment of right about 160. Furthermore, Beach is at 110, Hettinger/Scranton about 120, and Mott-Regent 68. Speaking of which, did you bring up the fact that Mott-Regent (68) just beat Hazen (185) last week- or is that another one of those conveniently ignored facts?

There are some good reasons why not to go to a 3 class system, but just because a small B beats a big B is not one of them. Some of you seem to think that for a 3 class system to be successful EVERY big B should be better than every small B. Should we scrap the two class system because a Class B team beat Valley City? In Minnesota (4 classes) A teams beat AA teams all the time. East Grand Forks (girls) AAA has at least 2 losses to A schools does this mean their system isn't working?

[Flip]

Precisely what I have been saying but you put it in a good storybook reference....I would add also, what I've been advocating for and that is to move forward with any capable, sensible and student advantage Consolidation ...

your consolidation ideas were not sensible

[winner-within]

Precisely what I have been saying but you put it in a good storybook reference....I would add also, what I've been advocating for and that is to move forward with any capable, sensible and student advantage Consolidation ...

your consolidation ideas were not sensible

They will happen, sensible or not

[NDplayin]

When you convert Heart River's 7-12 enrollment into 9-12, they have a combined enrollment of right about 160. Furthermore, Beach is at 110, Hettinger/Scranton about 120, and Mott-Regent 68. Speaking of which, did you bring up the fact that Mott-Regent (68) just beat Hazen (185) last week- or is that another one of those conveniently ignored facts?

There are some good reasons why not to go to a 3 class system, but just because a small B beats a big B is not one of them. Some of you seem to think that for a 3 class system to be successful EVERY big B should be better than every small B. Should we scrap the two class system because a Class B team beat Valley City? In Minnesota (4 classes) A teams beat AA teams all the time. East Grand Forks (girls) AAA has at least 2 losses to A schools does this mean their system isn't working?

I fully agree with you Flip, and when taken in the isolated context I can understand why you called me out for making such a point.

When expanding the context to include my previous posts, you'll find I was making the exact same point you are; that there are several on this site who try to isolate specific incidents and make an entire case off them- while completely ignoring similar evidence to the contrary (i.e mott over hazen). I believe, when you consider the entirety of recent and objective evidence in front of us, you will find a very balanced and healthy mixture of success across ND class B indicative of a system that is working well.

[High School Fan]

Schwab...once again you are wrong. The numbers that you present for 9-12 enrollments at Bishop Ryan High School and DT are incorrect. Bishop Ryan averages 32 students per class in grades 9-12. I believe the numbers you present are for grades 7-12. It looks as though you took numbers from the 2011-12 NDHSAA directory of member schools which has a large number of inaccurate pieces of information.

[winner-within]

It does work well overall
yet I think the district tourney is a waste of time in most instances
a longer season with a bit more east/west match ups and less "play the same team 2 times play would put things in perspective when it comes to the theory of "this region is heavily weighted with class B champs, but only 1 can go".......

I have friends anmd family in Fargo and the classes abroad (from Ben Franklin, to Davies, to North, to West)
.........have close to or above, 300 kids in each, yes!! I said each class......and my theory of getting 400 to 500 from 7 to 12 under one roof is "dumb" ....400 to 500 under one roof from 7-12......is still MINOOT (spelled to get point across)

[The Schwab]

Schwab...once again you are wrong. The numbers that you present for 9-12 enrollments at Bishop Ryan High School and DT are incorrect. Bishop Ryan averages 32 students per class in grades 9-12. I believe the numbers you present are for grades 7-12. It looks as though you took numbers from the 2011-12 NDHSAA directory of member schools which has a large number of inaccurate pieces of information.

Once again I'm wrong? Well I took these off of the NDHSAA report for the 2012-2013 school year. I know you're from Bishop Ryan so I can understand why you would dispute their numbers, but why Trinity?

[NDplayin]

It does work well overall
yet I think the district tourney is a waste of time in most instances
a longer season with a bit more east/west match ups and less "play the same team 2 times play would put things in perspective when it comes to the theory of "this region is heavily weighted with class B champs, but only 1 can go".......

I have friends anmd family in Fargo and the classes abroad (from Ben Franklin, to Davies, to North, to West)
.........have close to or above, 300 kids in each, yes!! I said each class......and my theory of getting 400 to 500 from 7 to 12 under one roof is "dumb" ....400 to 500 under one roof from 7-12......is still MINOOT (spelled to get point across)

I agree the district tournaments need a tweak... The teak I would prefer seems to be different than most people. Rather than do away with them, I would prefer to keep them but only bring 2 teams out instead of 4.

To quickly address your other side topic, I don't think anyone said 400 to 500 under one roof was "dumb," but in the way you are talking about it, it is unfeasible. 500 under one roof is fine- 500 under one roof when 300 of them have to drive 1 hour plus to school doesn't work.

[classB4ever]

Some rambling observations concerning this topic. These are not intended as pros or cons for either side and are certainly debatable.

1. Participation at the state b is fairly predictable. This is not meant as a bad thing, just really historical and geographical numbers. Of the 8 regions, 3 of them do not really have big schools (3, 4, 8 ). That means there is generally going to be a minimum of 38% small schools every year. Of the remaining 5 regions, one small school is generally going to represent one of those regions, bringing the total to 50% smalls. Of the remaining 4 regions, chances are 2 bigger schools and 2 parochial schools will be representing.

2. Just saying "Go out and build a program if you want to compete" is not always that easy. First of all, to do it you must be willing to realize the "return on the investment" is at best 5 years and more then likely 7-9 years away. There is always a certain amount of DNA, timing and good luck to figure into the equation as well. Every year there is proof that it has been done in communities across the state. It takes players, parents, fans and coaches to buy in and the results are generally pretty obvious. However, it does take numbers to make these programs sustainable.

3. IMO, comparing boys and girls basketball in this topic is unfair. If making the state tournament is the true ultimate goal, I think that a girl's basketball team with a star caliber player and average players around her has a legitimate shot at achieving it. I do not believe it is the same in boys. IMO, it seems that you have to have some star power, some above average players and some role players.

[Bisonguy06]

Region 3 doesn't have a truly "big" school. Agree.

Region 4 has Carrington.

Region 8 has Watford City, New Town and Stanley, all of whom are "big" by the numbers and are getting bigger.

I do agree that class B tournament participation has been steady, but the one and only 'given' each year is that Region 3 will send a small to medium sized school