why not add a class?

[classB4ever]

Another twist...Since 2003, from what I can recall, the following teams have made it to state a number of times. NRS (3), FW (3), TLM (2), Northstar (2), and Linton (4). Northstar and TLM were heavily favored to each go another time as well. So basically, you have 14 appearances out of the 72 and should have had 16. This is very close to your 2.4% attending at a 25% rate you mentioned before. however, its all with small public schools.

Well, I could respond to this post in a number of different ways. The bottom line is, as you well know, special groups of athletes come through these schools, make their run, and then they are done. Might be done for 5 years, 10 years or 30 years. There in lies the rub. It’s hard to explain away sustainability of a few, when nobody else can do it. Of the 5 teams you listed, only 1 plays against a private school in their region. In that region, when TLM wasn’t making it, who was? Listen, I am not trying to stir the pot. We keep throwing out figures, facts and statistics. I have read many posts on this website. I have chosen topics I believe in and will defend them. If proven wrong, will admit it.
I believe in breaking down barriers to move forward. Not once in all of the posts I have read on this website, has 1 private school supporter said, “Living in a larger town might be an advantage.” I believe the facts, figures and statistics prove otherwise. I have heard the word recruiting used far too often. Have heard public schools are jealous of privates, have heard private schools are actually at a disadvantage. Personally, I believe that private schools have an advantage because of their locations. Do I think it makes for an un-level playing field? I use to, but have changed my view after witnessing this years state tournament. NDplayin and ndlionsfan, you get the last words.

[1stTrack]

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Sometimes it is better to fix something bfore it breaks. There is a lot discussions about this topic and everyone can spin something different. I do not think it will be changed to 3 classes, but I wouldn't mind if they tried it to see how it goes. I think that all of the head coaches and athletic directors should get together to discuss it and vote on it (with NDHSAA apporval). Then everyone will know how the majority of the state feels about it

[Bisonguy06]

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Sometimes it is better to fix something bfore it breaks. There is a lot discussions about this topic and everyone can spin something different. I do not think it will be changed to 3 classes, but I wouldn't mind if they tried it to see how it goes. I think that all of the head coaches and athletic directors should get together to discuss it and vote on it (with NDHSAA apporval). Then everyone will know how the majority of the state feels about it

The discussion has taken place for decades, and the vote has taken place 6 times in the last 20 years. How many more times do we need to discuss and vote?

[Indy5]

Another twist...Since 2003, from what I can recall, the following teams have made it to state a number of times. NRS (3), FW (3), TLM (2), Northstar (2), and Linton (4). Northstar and TLM were heavily favored to each go another time as well. So basically, you have 14 appearances out of the 72 and should have had 16. This is very close to your 2.4% attending at a 25% rate you mentioned before. however, its all with small public schools.

Well, I could respond to this post in a number of different ways. The bottom line is, as you well know, special groups of athletes come through these schools, make their run, and then they are done. Might be done for 5 years, 10 years or 30 years. There in lies the rub. It’s hard to explain away sustainability of a few, when nobody else can do it. Of the 5 teams you listed, only 1 plays against a private school in their region. In that region, when TLM wasn’t making it, who was? Listen, I am not trying to stir the pot. We keep throwing out figures, facts and statistics. I have read many posts on this website. I have chosen topics I believe in and will defend them. If proven wrong, will admit it.
I believe in breaking down barriers to move forward. Not once in all of the posts I have read on this website, has 1 private school supporter said, “Living in a larger town might be an advantage.” I believe the facts, figures and statistics prove otherwise. I have heard the word recruiting used far too often. Have heard public schools are jealous of privates, have heard private schools are actually at a disadvantage. Personally, I believe that private schools have an advantage because of their locations. Do I think it makes for an un-level playing field? I use to, but have changed my view after witnessing this years state tournament. NDplayin and ndlionsfan, you get the last words.

I am a private school supporter and I do think living in a larger town is an advantage. I know I've said that before. I think I have on this site, but might have been just in conversation before. Being located where they are is the only advantage they have though. It does help because they get to play against better competition when they grow up. I have always felt that this could be possible for small towns by putting together a team and going to local tournaments in the fall and spring. I think there are probably at least 2 a year within 100 miles of any town. Also, you could argue that facilities help the private school kids because they have access to YMCA's, rec centers, and things like that. I think that schools in small towns could still be able to have their school open enough to where this shouldn't be a huge deal.

[ndlionsfan]

I've tried to find the post in one of these topics that listed all the teams that qualified for state for at least the last 10 years, maybe more but can't find it anywhere. Can anyone help me out here?

[sportsfan10]

I've tried to find the post in one of these topics that listed all the teams that qualified for state for at least the last 10 years, maybe more but can't find it anywhere. Can anyone help me out here?

Is this what you mean? I found it in the "Past State Champions" thread Run4Fun put up.This is just the last 10 years.
2002: MPCG, Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Dickinson Trinity, Kindred, Mandaree, Standing Rock
2003: MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston Trinity Christian, Kindred
2004: Dickinson Trinity, Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Bishop Ryan, Shiloh Christian
2005: New Rockford-Sheyenne, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, MPCG, Linton, Flasher, Divide County , Central Cass
2006: Dickinson Trinity, MPCG, Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, Bishop Ryan, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland
2007: Parshall, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Bishop Ryan, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, Barnes County North
2008: Grafton, Turtle Lake-Mercer, LaMoure, Watford City, Four Winds, Mott-Regent, Bishop Ryan, Lisbon
2009: Linton, Dakota Prairie, Turtle Lake-Mercer, North Sargent, Watford City, Bowman County, North Star, Berthold
2010: Carrington, Berthold, Cavalier, Kidder County, Mandaree, Fargo Oak Grove, Beulah, Shiloh Christian
2011: North Star, Grafton, New Town, Dickinson Trinity, Fargo Oak Grove, Bishop Ryan, Linton-HMB, Standing Rock

[Bison.Fan]

That makes 3 small schools almost every year. We sure as h--- don't need three classes.

[winner-within]

1979: Sargent Central, Halliday, Berthold, Linton, Larimore, Cando, Mott, Karlsruhe
1980: New Town, Berthold, Linton, Hillsboro, Oakes, Edmore, Glenfield-Sutton, Belfield
1981: Hillsboro, Edmore, Glenfield-Sutton-McHenry, Westhope, New Town, Medina, Milnor, Bowman
1982: Divide County, Edmore, McVille, Steele, Fairmount, Des Lacs-Burlington, Ceter, Anamoose
1983: Hettinger, Mayville-Portland, Grenora, Munich, Kindred, Steele, Surrey, Towner
1984: Linton, Newburg, Hillsboro, Glen Ullin, Towner, Lankin-Adams, Beulah, Kindred
1985: Linton, Newburg, Hazen, Karlsruhe, Ellendale, Tolna, Langdon, New England
1986: Newburg, Belfield, Watford City, Hillsboro, Carrington, Langdon, Fargo Oak Grove, Steele-Dawson
1987: Mayville-Portland, Linton, Page, Leeds, Glen Ullin, Dunseith, Divide County, Starkweather
1988: Edinburg, Divide County, Glen Ullin, Hankinson, Carrington, Kenmare-Donnybrook, Hillsboro, Strasburg
1989: Bisbee-Egeland, Newburg, Hillsboro, Beulah, Standing Rock, Cass Valley North, Edgeley, Warwick
1990: Edgeley, Dunseith, Cavalier, Northwood, Ray, Reeder, Minnewauken, Enderlin
1991: Watford City, Munich, Central Cass, Steele-Dawson, Leeds, Westhope-Souris, Litchville, Reeder
1992: Munich, Leeds-Wolford, Hillsboro, Napoleon, Watford City, LaMoure, Des Lacs-Burlington, Elgin
1993: Central Valley, Des Lacs-Burlington, Bottineau, Leeds-Wolford, Sargent Central, Gackle-Streeter, Garrison, Standing Rock
1994: Bishop Ryan, Dakota Prairie (Tolna), Dunseith, Halliday, Hettinger, St. Thomas-Valley, Linton, Oakes
1995: Carrington, Grenora, Halliday, MPCG, Oakes, L-M-M, Rhame, Munich

This is how Class B was perceived....since 1996 its been Bigs and Privates and Co-ops, now along with Structuring certain athletes...is it inevitable for some....YEP!...you talk about 3 every year it used to be 8

[ndlionsfan]

Another twist...Since 2003, from what I can recall, the following teams have made it to state a number of times. NRS (3), FW (3), TLM (2), Northstar (2), and Linton (4). Northstar and TLM were heavily favored to each go another time as well. So basically, you have 14 appearances out of the 72 and should have had 16. This is very close to your 2.4% attending at a 25% rate you mentioned before. however, its all with small public schools.

Well, I could respond to this post in a number of different ways. The bottom line is, as you well know, special groups of athletes come through these schools, make their run, and then they are done. Might be done for 5 years, 10 years or 30 years. There in lies the rub. It’s hard to explain away sustainability of a few, when nobody else can do it. Of the 5 teams you listed, only 1 plays against a private school in their region. In that region, when TLM wasn’t making it, who was? Listen, I am not trying to stir the pot. We keep throwing out figures, facts and statistics. I have read many posts on this website. I have chosen topics I believe in and will defend them. If proven wrong, will admit it.
I believe in breaking down barriers to move forward. Not once in all of the posts I have read on this website, has 1 private school supporter said, “Living in a larger town might be an advantage.” I believe the facts, figures and statistics prove otherwise. I have heard the word recruiting used far too often. Have heard public schools are jealous of privates, have heard private schools are actually at a disadvantage. Personally, I believe that private schools have an advantage because of their locations. Do I think it makes for an un-level playing field? I use to, but have changed my view after witnessing this years state tournament. NDplayin and ndlionsfan, you get the last words.

Very good point. I'll try to look at this in a different way. Do I think private schools have somewhat of an advantage being located in larger cities? Yes. Is it enough to put them in a different class from the current B schools? No. Forgetting about Region 7 (I don't think people complain about private schools much at all if DT didn't make their amazing run) I've broke down the rest of the regions based on multiple state appearances for one team, state appearances from private schools, and state appearances from Native American schools in the last 10 tournaments. Not that I am racist or have a problem with NA schools making numerous trips to state, but they are a small group of schools similar to the number of private schools in class B.

Region 1 - OG 2 and Kindred 2. This is surprisingly the most balanced of all regions.
Region 2 - MPCG 4, Grafton 2, Cavalier 2. With MPCG's run and Grafton having a great program lately, this region has a bit of domination with "large" schools.
Region 3 - Linton 5. Before HMB and their enrollment addition, Linton would be in the smallest class but this region is almost all "small" class schools.
Region 4 - FW 3, NRS 3, NS 2. Great balance in this region between Native American schools making it to state and large schools making it to state percentage wise because there are only 3 large schools and Carrington was the only rep at state.
Region 5 - Shiloh 4, SR 2, TLM 2. Probably the most telling of all regions since its one of only two to have Native American and private schools. Shiloh has represented a little more than is should statiscally, but the question is good program or unfair advantage? Does Linton have an unfair advantage in region 3?
Region 6 - Ryan 5, Berthold 3. These two teams have dominated this region. I think its just time for some other teams to step up to the plate and start building programs. Dunseith has 0 appearances.
Region 8 - Parshall and Madaree 2 each, Watford 2. Trinity, Trenton, and NewTown one each. Private school isn't dominating here, but the NAtive American schools are. BUT, there are also 5 native american teams in this region.

What's my point in all this? I don't know. Taking away region 7 I really don't think it shows an inbalance between representation of big, small, private, or Native American teams anywhere. Yes, Shiloh and Ryan have also went to state many times for their region, but so has Linton. Region 1 is very telling because it has been represented by so many different teams and Oak Grove is definitely not dominating there. If there was such a big advantage for them, one would expect them to be at state as much as the other 3 private schools have been.

[winner-within]

If the Lindahls hadnt have moved to Cando...Cando (NS) wouldnt have made it to state this decade or Last....Native American schools are Stackin it as we speak as are the rivals in their regions...Private or Public..... Region 2 is still genuine....No hanky panky!

[nodaker]

....Native American schools are Stackin it as we speak as are the rivals

I only know of one "possible" transfer for next year to NT
Not looking for names....but do you have a rough number to each school?

[NDplayin]

Winner, thanks for posting the list from 1979-95. One thing immediately jumped out at me, which was Hazen's appearance in 1985. That makes one of my previous posts inaccurate where I said Hazen's only appearance was 1965. That is all that was listed in the State B program that I used as a reference, so I will point the finger at that for my error. Regardless, the slight change in detail doesn't affect the point I was making when I referenced Hazen's high enrollment but low number and long absence of state tournament appearances.

In regard to you point that "the B" looks so much differently now then it did then, I have mixed feelings.

The first thought is that Im not sure that "the old B" is as different as it appears at first glance. I still see 'bigs' and privates on there like Carrington, Oak Grove, Watford City, Bishop Ryan, Bottineau, May-Port, Beulah, Hazen, and more. This is also compounded by the fact that we are typically looking at those school names and thinking of them in-terms of their "New-Millenium Enrollment" which is post-depopulation. Schools like Mott of 1979, Hettinger of 1983, and Cavalier of 1990 were likely double the size of the 2000's Mott, Hettinger, and Cavalier. I have a feeling there are several schools on that list for which that is true. Comparing a pre-depopulation list to a post-depopulation list gives us a distorted image of who is big and who is small. I suspect if we had full and reliable archives of all the enrollments from back then (which we don't), we would find that the ratio of 'bigs' to 'smalls' is much closer to the modern day ratio than you would suspect.

The second thought is that you are right. The "old B" does look different than the "new B". I may not think the ratio of bigs to smalls is as different as you think, but there are other differences. The major difference I noticed was the fewer number of repeat appearances by schools. I saw a few names on there more than once. I still saw Linton a handful of times, Mayport a few times, Cavalalier and Carrington popped up here and there throughout, but non-the-less the "old B" seems to have had a much "fresher face" from year to year than the "new B" does. I found this most interesting, because repeat appearances by certain schools seems to be the main battle cry for more classes.

Again, I think the disparity in number of repeat appearances is deceiving, and again I think it relates largely to depopulation. The "old B" used to have 32 districts jam packed with teams. The "new B" has 16 districts, many of them very sparse. I don't think we are seeing more repeat appearances because any programs have become "more dominant." I think we are seeing more repeat appearances because good programs have to go through fewer teams to qualify for the tournament. Being the best out of 13 teams five times out of 11 years is certainly different than being the best out of 32 or more teams 5 times in 11 years. Due to depopulation decreasing the number of teams competing, we are and will continue to see more repeat appearances than in the 1980s.

The "new B" can never look exactly like the "old B." The population climate of North Dakota has changed drasticly, and with that we have signifigantly fewer teams competing. The question we need to ask ourselves is if the current system fairly matches the current climate. When I look at our recent history, recent enrollment numbers, and how schools on every rung of the enrollment ladder are competing, I find it not only easy to believe but easy to factually support the idea that our current system is fair and working very well. On the other side of the coin, I find it extremely hard to find any sound justification that a third class would be prudent.

[ndlionsfan]

Very good post Playin. You touched on a lot of points that are critical in comparing the class B landscape now with 20 years ago. I also do not think 3 classes would work in ND. Think about how many programs you'd have repeating at each level by reducing the numbers of teams. I do however see a future problem with the populations growing as fast as they are in parts of the state, leading to a wider spread of enrollments in class B. I do think the NDHSAA needs to take a good long look at LOWERING the enrollment cutoff to 200. This would add teams to class A that I think would compete just fine and even out the balance at bit in class B. It would also possibly curb some of the co-ops that might occur because schools will want to stay under that 200 line and force them to continue with their programs. Examples would be two schools that are low on numbers, but both have over 100 enrollment in high school. They are going to try to build their program numbers instead of co-oping and going class A.

[winner-within]

Yes great post...I think the one point you are missing is that there are alot of bigs who made it back then with Football players...Don't let the Cavaliers and Carringtons and such fool you... there were teams back then that were stacked but they wouldn't have went as far against what I call today's true Basketball programs.

We still have 642.000 people in the great state....Where the difference is, is there are so many more kids in Fargo metro area than there was in the late 80's and thru the 90's....family's have gotten smaller AND Family's have congregated to The City's......Farms have gotten Bigger and there are alot less not filling up the landscape.

I truly believe that 1 Class is the fix, not now....but once a handful of Schools come together here and there, also if implemented more would come together...Change the format of the state Tournament....and I don't know how many A Schools there are right now but count them up....then count up a handful of consolidations that would make real good sense...and I'd bet we are at the same amount (or close) to our current # of 7-12 Schools..... change the Rules on transferring..(double the time it takes to reestablish) Whether its Public, Private or Reservation.

[classB4ever]

I found this most interesting, because repeat appearances by certain schools seems to be the main battle cry for more classes.

No, this is not the case.

The "new B" can never look exactly like the "old B." The population climate of North Dakota has changed drasticly, and with that we have signifigantly fewer teams competing. The question we need to ask ourselves is if the current system fairly matches the current climate. When I look at our recent history, recent enrollment numbers, and how schools on every rung of the enrollment ladder are competing, I find it not only easy to believe but easy to factually support the idea that our current system is fair and working very well. On the other side of the coin, I find it extremely hard to find any sound justification that a third class would be prudent.

This is.
Our current 2-class system has fit ND well for the past 2 decades and may be the best alternative right now. My problem is your factually answering only the questions you want to hear.

[NDplayin]

Our current 2-class system has fit ND well for the past 2-3 decades and may be the best alternative right now. My problem is your factually answering only the questions you want to hear.

I certainly apologize for that ClassB... but it is not intentional. What questions have you (or someone else on here) asked that I havent responded to? I'll do my best

[classB4ever]

There is absolutely no need for apologies. We throw out ideas. Some stick to the wall, some don't. I have read many of your posts and they are always informative and well thought out. One issue I feel you have skirted on this thread and have not engaged in other threads, is private schools. This leads me to believe that you are in a position that does not allow it or you don't believe in the data that has been provided. Either way, this has been discussed enough. I have changed my views in the past year. Some of the reasons are from what I have learned on this website and some from what I have personally witnessed. Our current system, as you have stated, is probably as good as any for ND's landscape. My position in the past was simply there were some problems and the system wasn't as perfect as everybody thought. I have never been a person to mince words. I felt that by getting people to at least look at some "perceived" problems, that perhaps we could move forward with open minds and maybe the next system put in place could address them. But after reading, watching and listening, maybe the problems are not as bad as I felt they were. I have enjoyed the sparring and thanks for keeping it classy (b).

[NDplayin]

You are right ClassB, when in any two class versus three class I do skirt the issue of private schools. While I can't deny that there must be a private school 'issue', if there wasn't some type of issue it wouldn't be brought up on this thread constantly, I have never been able to put my finger on what exactly the issue is.

Whatever the issue is, I usually skirt it for this reason: I think the private school issue and the 2 class vs 3 class issue are seperate. I also think that when people start debating private schools in a 2 class vs. 3 class debate, the thread gets flooded with speculation about private schools and that the good, respuctful, fact-based discussion on class systems becomes lost forever.

I don't have any private school stats on my spread sheet, but if necessary I can put them together.

[baloncesto]

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Sometimes it is better to fix something bfore it breaks. There is a lot discussions about this topic and everyone can spin something different. I do not think it will be changed to 3 classes, but I wouldn't mind if they tried it to see how it goes. I think that all of the head coaches and athletic directors should get together to discuss it and vote on it (with NDHSAA apporval). Then everyone will know how the majority of the state feels about it

I am in favor of having a Class B-A and B-B. The larger schooles would be in the A portion of this. The smaller schooles in the B. They wouldnt be in the same district or region but then they could meet up in the state tournament. It would give it a feeling of david vs. goliath. It would also keep the revenue made from the class b state tournament intact.

[heimer]

Our current 2-class system has fit ND well for the past 2-3 decades

Blatently false. We have had the current 2-class system for exactly 20 years this year. Talk of three decades is intentionally misleading.

[classB4ever]

Sorry about that heimer. Went back and changed it just for you. I am in such a good mood today, I think I can bend light.

heimer ROYGBIV scruffy

People just don't want to bend. You and your thoughts are always right. I'm out.

[Bisonguy06]

Our current 2-class system has fit ND well for the past 2-3 decades

Blatently false. We have had the current 2-class system for exactly 20 years this year. Talk of three decades is intentionally misleading.

Blatently false and intentionally misleading. It's less than 20 years. Jamestown has shifted from east to west. Beulah and Valley City have moved up and down. grafton moved down. Class B redistricting took place less than twenty years ago.

Come on heimer... We can play silly word games all day long. Some restructuring has taken place, but the general A/B framework has been around for a long, long time.

[heimer]

You don't call the dissolution of the North Star a major shake up in the two-class system. We lost an ENTIRE REGION of Class A in 1991, 20 years ago this year.

The three-class system faded in the sixties, and the North Star came around in the early 70s, then fell apart in 1991. The FACT is that we haven't had a long run of any system in North Dakota history.

[Bisonguy06]

Minor shake up. What, 8 teams changed divisions, if that?

One shake up in over 40 years?

[NDplayin]

You know how it works Bisonbuy06. Heimer owns a thesaurus and he knows how to use it. It doesn't make him any more or any less well spoken, its just his way of compensating for the naturally weak nature of his arguments and lack of facts. All you have to do is pour his posts through the stainer of common sense and remove the constant exaggerations he uses to try and distract readers from the truth.