Top Myths From Class "B" Basketball

[balla45]

I don't think Class B is bad. It is just a different type of basketball. I like the NBA and NCAA, but I like the NCAA more. I like A basketball and B basketball, I just like A basketball more.

[The Schwab]

Dont worry balla, that was not ment for you. I really do wish that Class B champs would play the A champs l, that would draw a pretty decent crowd, they could raise money for some charity.

[steve34]

I spend time on the Class B forum because of the fraud that keeps our state from moving forward with three classes of basketball. The myths generated around the Class B game hold the state back big time, and someone has to challenge these myths with the truth.

No one is arguing against the fact that, for the last three years, the receipts from the Class B boys Elite 8 have been steadily dropping. Even the old-tymers, the ones who buy into the myths hook, line, and sinker, are seeing through the smoke-screen that is Class B basketball. The "grand daddy" is losing steam, and a change is necessary to refresh basketball around the state.

Class B basketball isn't good enough to make us hold on to an outdated system. Perhaps at one time it was the best thing going, but it's losing a ton of momentum to football and Class A basketball. A ball isn't gaining ground because of new-found interest from former B players moving into A towns. Two words--shot clock. The game actually moves around a little bit and you actually have to keep playing after you take the big lead. I saw a game this weekend where a team stalled for 1:15 for the final shot, then called a timeout with 6 seconds left. They won in overtime, not in regulation. This is why B basketball pretty much fails in any comparison to the A game, or any other game.

[Flip]

Class B basketball isn't good enough to make us hold on to an outdated system. Perhaps at one time it was the best thing going, but it's losing a ton of momentum to football and Class A basketball.

Proof that Class B basketball is losing a ton of momentum to football and Class A basketball? Class B basketball might be losing momentum (I really don't think so), but I don't think Class A basketball or football is gaining momentum.

[steve34]

The receipts from the gate would prove otherwise.

[classB4ever]

The receipts from the gate would prove otherwise.

steve, would you post the gate receipts for the past 15 years so we can see how much it has fallen off? Also, the economy the past few years may lend to some of this as well.

[steve34]

I will make the request to comply with yours.

[ndlionsfan]

Alright Steve, I did some research. I could only go back two years because that is all I could find on the NDHSAA website.

In 2009, Class B boys state tourney brought in $121, 097.18 in revenue to the NDHSAA. The Class A combined tourney brought in $48,261.30.

In 2008, Class B boys state tourney brought in $112,763.54 and the Class A combined tourney $67,252.86.

So you tell me now Steve, how can you spin these numbers to somehow try to prove your point, or I guess I should say theory since these numbers prove otherwise. Looks to me like the Class B state tourney revenue increased and the Class A tourney decrease. And this is just taking the B boys tourney, I didn't even try to find the girls and add into it!

Just to crunch the numbers a bit more that's a 7.5% increase for the Class B boys tourney and a whopping 28% decrease for the Class A tourney!

[steve34]

Yeah, and there's a reason why the post above asked for 15 years. It's just like a moderator with his head in the Class B clouds to find numbers that support his myth, and then take them out of context.

Oh, and I'd like to see how much of that revenue was actually related to basketball. Does every parent with a child in the parade of champions get a free ticket, or are they paying at the door. I'm guessing it's the latter. So, as I mentioned before, keep pumping up your numbers with all the pomp and circumstance of every past, present, and future champion, and make the B less about basketball and more about everyone patting themselves on the back.

Not to mention that there were nine teams in last year's Elite 8.

[ndlionsfan]

Wow, I knew you'd try to spin it around. What did I say right away? I could only find two years worth on the NDHSAA site. I will keep looking for more, don't worry. When I find it, it will be posted. You honestly think that the parade of champions bumps up the attendance that much? That has no place in this argument anyway since not the point you were trying to make in the first place. You said that the B tourney receipts are steadily dropping. Now you're trying to bring up something else since the numbers don't support your argument. I showed you that revenues actually increased last year, a year in which the economy was down. Maybe that was a fluke and the data over the last 15 years will show that it has dropped off. How do you explain the sharp decline in the numbers for the class A tourney? I will look those numbers up for the last 5 years if I can find them to (or however many years ago they went to the combined format).

[07ndgolfer]

So are you trying to say that if the parade of champions was held during the class A tourney that it would make up for the $70,000+ difference there was last year just from the ticket sales of those parents who just watch the parade of champions???...I don't think so... And for the percentage of increase from 2008 to 2009 for the B, in 2008 it was held in Fargo and 2009 was in Minot. And for the huge percentage decrease from 08 to 09 for the A, in 2008 it was held in Bismarck and 2009 was in Fargo... If Fargo does such an excellent job of hosting tournaments compared to Minot and Bismarck why can't their numbers even compare???

[classB4ever]

Yeah, and there's a reason why the post above asked for 15 years. It's just like a moderator with his head in the Class B clouds to find numbers that support his myth, and then take them out of context.

Oh, and I'd like to see how much of that revenue was actually related to basketball. Does every parent with a child in the parade of champions get a free ticket, or are they paying at the door. I'm guessing it's the latter. So, as I mentioned before, keep pumping up your numbers with all the pomp and circumstance of every past, present, and future champion, and make the B less about basketball and more about everyone patting themselves on the back.

Not to mention that there were nine teams in last year's Elite 8.

Won't address the nine team remark. Will address the parade of champions. I am not positive of the year of inclusion for the parade of champions, but am fairly positive it has been around for the past 15 years. You cannot use the parade of champions as part of your argument for incline or decline in gate receipts for that reason.

[baseball]

So are you trying to say that if the parade of champions was held during the class A tourney that it would make up for the $70,000+ difference there was last year just from the ticket sales of those parents who just watch the parade of champions???...I don't think so... And for the percentage of increase from 2008 to 2009 for the B, in 2008 it was held in Fargo and 2009 was in Minot. And for the huge percentage decrease from 08 to 09 for the A, in 2008 it was held in Bismarck and 2009 was in Fargo... If Fargo does such an excellent job of hosting tournaments compared to Minot and Bismarck why can't their numbers even compare???

Myth #4 can also be chalked up as debunked now too....

[steve34]

I said Fargo does a fine job of hosting tournaments, not attending them. None of the complaints about the tournament being in Fargo have ever been about attendance. It's always about facilities, and facilities are not a problem in Fargo.

Bismarck and Minot obviously do a better job of attending the tournaments. So, if you want to blame it on Fargo, then lets get some Minot to Minot and Bismarck to Bismarck comparisons going. There's a reason why administrators all agree that the luster is wearing off the B.

Also, would someone please post the field of teams in the Elite 8 in 2008. I'm aware of the field in 2009. It's awfully nice to have the following:

North Star--5 or 6 towns strung together.
Dakota Prairie--5 or 6 towns strung together.
Bowman County--enough said.
Linton--sorry, but there's no denying the impact that five players from other school districts had

So, lets compare fields for a bit. And I"m not trying to make a point, because I, for the life of me, cannot remember the field from 2008.

[wildcatfan]

I for one do not like the parade of champions, I think that it is too slow and takes away from the championship game, so let's let class A boost their reciepts and let them have it.

I am in favor of the 3 classes also, the Elite 8 of 2009 was made up of mostly small school proves a point that they can support their own tourney and have a good crowd. With three classes. I think you would have two highly attended state tournaments and then the Big school tourney would still be a distance third in "reciepts"

[Flip]

The receipts from the gate would prove otherwise.

Where did you see these numbers?

[classB4ever]

I said Fargo does a fine job of hosting tournaments, not attending them. None of the complaints about the tournament being in Fargo have ever been about attendance. It's always about facilities, and facilities are not a problem in Fargo.

Bismarck and Minot obviously do a better job of attending the tournaments. So, if you want to blame it on Fargo, then lets get some Minot to Minot and Bismarck to Bismarck comparisons going. There's a reason why administrators all agree that the luster is wearing off the B.

Also, would someone please post the field of teams in the Elite 8 in 2008. I'm aware of the field in 2009. It's awfully nice to have the following:

North Star--5 or 6 towns strung together.
Dakota Prairie--5 or 6 towns strung together.
Bowman County--enough said.
Linton--sorry, but there's no denying the impact that five players from other school districts had

So, lets compare fields for a bit. And I"m not trying to make a point, because I, for the life of me, cannot remember the field from 2008.

steve, I am not sure what direction you are going with this. I am guessing you are trying to show population base for teams from one year to the next attending the state tournament. Thus the increase in gate receipts from 2008 to 2009. Following are the two years teams:

2008 State Tournament Teams
R1 - Lisbon R2 - Grafton R3 - Lamoure R4 - Four Winds R5 - TLM R6 - Bishop Ryan R7 - Mott/Regent
R8 Watford City

2009 State Tournament Teams
R1 - North Sargent R2 - Dakota Prairie R3 - Linton R4 - North Star R5 - TLM R6 - Berthold
R7 - Bowman County R8 - Watford City

So, we can compare regional attendees to see if the population base for teams attending were higher from each region in the 2009 tourney vs. 2008 tourney, therefore the increase in gate receipts.

R1 - Lisbon vs. North Sargent. Not sure. Would guess about a wash.
R2 - Grafton vs. Dakota Prairie. Don't think that one is close.
R3 - Lamoure vs. Linton. Nod to Linton but not by much?
R4 - Four Winds vs. North Star (3 towns). Four Winds.
R5 - TLM. Same both years.
R6 - Minot Bishop Ryan vs. Berthold. Have to give it to Ryan.
R7 - Mott/Regent vs. Bowman County. Not sure. Would guess about a wash.
R8 - Watford City. Same both years.

I am not positive, but I am guessing that the population base would have been down for 2009 vs. 2008.

[classB4ever]

I spend time on the Class B forum because of the fraud that keeps our state from moving forward with three classes of basketball. The myths generated around the Class B game hold the state back big time, and someone has to challenge these myths with the truth.

No one is arguing against the fact that, for the last three years, the receipts from the Class B boys Elite 8 have been steadily dropping. Even the old-tymers, the ones who buy into the myths hook, line, and sinker, are seeing through the smoke-screen that is Class B basketball. The "grand daddy" is losing steam, and a change is necessary to refresh basketball around the state.

Class B basketball isn't good enough to make us hold on to an outdated system. Perhaps at one time it was the best thing going, but it's losing a ton of momentum to football and Class A basketball. A ball isn't gaining ground because of new-found interest from former B players moving into A towns. Two words--shot clock. The game actually moves around a little bit and you actually have to keep playing after you take the big lead. I saw a game this weekend where a team stalled for 1:15 for the final shot, then called a timeout with 6 seconds left. They won in overtime, not in regulation. This is why B basketball pretty much fails in any comparison to the A game, or any other game.

steve, ndlionsfan showed an increase in gate receipts for the 2 years that data was available. He showed decrease on the A side. You attempted to side step using the parade of champions, but since it was used in both years, not relevant. I am not positive, but believe the population base for the 2 years was down last year. Last but not least, I think we all can agree on the fact that the economy was down last year.
Would you be willing to admit, on this one subject, that you may have been wrong?

[ndlionsfan]

R1 - Lisbon vs. North Sargent. Not sure. Would guess about a wash.
R2 - Grafton vs. Dakota Prairie. Don't think that one is close.
R3 - Lamoure vs. Linton. Nod to Linton but not by much?
R4 - Four Winds vs. North Star (3 towns). Four Winds.
R5 - TLM. Same both years.
R6 - Minot Bishop Ryan vs. Berthold. Have to give it to Ryan.
R7 - Mott/Regent vs. Bowman County. Not sure. Would guess about a wash.
R8 - Watford City. Same both years.

I am not positive, but I am guessing that the population base would have been down for 2009 vs. 2008.

Lisbon is much larger than Gwinner, but with Gwinner going for the first time I'm sure they brought a ton of fans so I'd say its even.

Grafton is much larger than all the population of the towns that make up DP. However Grafton also supports hockey at the same time so their fan base is probably even again.

Lamoure and Linton would be a wash.

Four Winds and Northstar don't even compare. FW probably brought twice the fans NS did.

Minot Ryan and Berthold would go to Berthold I'm guessing. More dedicated fans.

Mott and Bowman would be a wash.

I'd say the attendance from the teams involved would be a slight advantage to the 2008 tourney.

[Bisonguy06]

[/quote] steve, ndlionsfan showed an increase in gate receipts for the 2 years that data was available. He showed decrease on the A side. You attempted to side step using the parade of champions, but since it was used in both years, not relevant. I am not positive, but believe the population base for the 2 years was down last year. Last but not least, I think we all can agree on the fact that the economy was down last year.
Would you be willing to admit, on this one subject, that you may have been wrong?[/quote]

This will never happen.

Steve has no interest in seeing any numbers that debunk his "myths." Maybe that's why he calls them his top ten "myths" instead of his top ten "facts."

He asked for all the data on big vs. small schools in the state B tournament. The results didn't fit his argument, so he changed the argument.

He asked for all the data on gate receipts at the state B tournament. The results didn't fit his argument, so he changed the argument.

That's why we're at 15 pages and counting on this thread.

Keep presenting the numbers and the research everybody. You won't convince Steve, but you'll win over a lot of folks who are a little more open-minded.

[Run4Fun2009]

There were WAY MORE people at 2009's region 1 tourney Championship than there were 2008's Region 1 championship

[steve34]

Very few class B fans are open-minded, so keep going with that. Myth number 12 or so.

I'm working on obtaining the gate receipts for the last 15 years, as was asked for in this thread. This cannot be accomplished in 15 minutes. E-mails have been sent.

You can't debunk the myths period. Keep trying, but you can't do it. That's why the thread is 15 pages. It's 15 pages because you cling to the myths so hard you could choke them. They are all you have to make Class B basketball relevant.

Once the numbers are available, you'll see the receipts have fallen. The field from last year to two years ago? Really. Linton is a nod but not by much over LaMoure? Rediculous. Way more, way bigger, considering that Linton's 25th anniversary team was acknowleged this year. Bowman Co. and Mott-Regent a wash? Rediculous. Bowman County's bringing a truckload more fans. North Star brings less than Four Winds? You're out of your mind. That's five regions where the population was either the same or more. Sure, Grafton would typically bring more than DP, but Grafton's hockey base could care less about basketball, so your population is divided. Same with North Sargent and Lisbon. Lisbon's wrestling crowd is substantial, and they ain't trucking to Minot. Two schools in Region I and II that have one winter sport, compared with schools that have two (in Grafton's case, three now). That's seven of your regions. You get Berthold, I guess. The rest go to a bigger turnout based on field.

[Bisonguy06]

Very few class B fans are open-minded, so keep going with that. Myth number 12 or so.

I'm working on obtaining the gate receipts for the last 15 years, as was asked for in this thread. This cannot be accomplished in 15 minutes. E-mails have been sent.

You can't debunk the myths period. Keep trying, but you can't do it. That's why the thread is 15 pages. It's 15 pages because you cling to the myths so hard you could choke them. They are all you have to make Class B basketball relevant.

Once the numbers are available, you'll see the receipts have fallen. The field from last year to two years ago? Really. Linton is a nod but not by much over LaMoure? Rediculous. Way more, way bigger, considering that Linton's 25th anniversary team was acknowleged this year. Bowman Co. and Mott-Regent a wash? Rediculous. Bowman County's bringing a truckload more fans. North Star brings less than Four Winds? You're out of your mind. That's five regions where the population was either the same or more. Sure, Grafton would typically bring more than DP, but Grafton's hockey base could care less about basketball, so your population is divided. Same with North Sargent and Lisbon. Lisbon's wrestling crowd is substantial, and they ain't trucking to Minot. Two schools in Region I and II that have one winter sport, compared with schools that have two (in Grafton's case, three now). That's seven of your regions. You get Berthold, I guess. The rest go to a bigger turnout based on field.

One ridiculous statement after another.

"Very few class B fans are open-minded..." - This is an absurd blanket statement. Every one of us has a unique perspective and opinion. Don't paint us all with the same brush. Heck, you're a class B guy yourself from Hope-Page, remember?

"You can't debunk the myths, period." - Speaking of closed-minded, how about this statement Steve? How arrogant is it to put forth an opinion and say that no one can legitimately disagree or prove it wrong?

"Once the numbers are available, you'll see that receipts have fallen." Well Steve, the number of North Dakotans living in class B communities has fallen significantly in the last 15 years. We have fewer schools, fewer students, and fewer fans available from class B communities to attend these events, so you would have to expect lower gate receipts. A drop in gate receipts can be easily explained. My question is, what are you going to say if there's no drop?

"Grafton's hockey fans could care less about basketball, ect..." Since when are fans limited to following one sport? Let's say Billy played hockey in Grafton in 2008 and Tommy wrestled for Lisbon... you think Billy and Tommy stayed home? Heck no, Billy and Tommy made the trip to state and Billy stormed the court with the rest of his Grafton classmates at the end of the tournament.

"A bigger (2009) turnout based on field..." So now you're saying that the 2009 field was bigger. Talk about wanting to have it both ways. You have already been shown the 2009 field and the fact that it had only two schools that you could consider "big" - Watford City and Bowman County. Either you are wrong about the 2009 field, or you are arguing that the 2008 field had EVEN MORE SMALL SCHOOL FLAVOR THAN THE 2009 TOURNAMENT, which does even more damage to your argument that big schools are hogging all the state class B tournament appearances!

You say that these "myths" prevent us from moving forward with a three class plan? Baloney. A move to three classes is a move backwards to the 1950s and 60s when we had 200+ high schools in this state. It's backwards to think that we should be adding classes when we are losing students and schools.

[ndlionsfan]

I'm sorry Steve, but if you think Northstar brought more fans to state than Four Winds you're nuts! You have never been to a FW game up in this area and see how their fans follow their team everywhere. Not only did basically everyone from the Spirit Lake Reservation go to the state tourney, I'm sure a lot from Turtle Mtn and Standing Rock did, too. That statement there just shows how ignorant you are. You're just looking for an argument and have no commen sense whatsoever!

[digger]

You say that these "myths" prevent us from moving forward with a three class plan? Baloney. A move to three classes is a move backwards to the 1950s and 60s when we had 200+ high schools in this state. It's backwards to think that we should be adding classes when we are losing students and schools.

Clarity of thought, thank you. The biggest myth surrounding North Dakota high school basketball is that the 3-class system is inevitable and needed to somehow save the game.