Top Myths From Class "B" Basketball

[scruffy]

Projected enrollments over the next few years prove differently. The quality of play would not improve but get worse because the number of kids will continue to shrink. Sadly, when it comes to small towns and schools we're trying to save a dinosaur. It's not going to happen.

[winner-within]

Today it's very hard to find any region in class "B" who has more then four or five decent teams in it. Imagine the overall quality of play in a third class. Please, I'm not putting anyone down... but it wouldn't be pretty..

It would probably be ugly for the first few years, but you never know when some of these teams that haven't won for ages start having some success, the younger kids could get more excited and work on their game and more kids stick with it in the future it could improve by leaps and bounds. That is, if the NDHSAA does something to get more teams on the court by breaking up some co-ops and such. I know its a stretch, but its pretty ignorant for people to say it will only make things worse or it will never work without actually trying to change some things.

"not accepting change doesnt bring back the past, it prevents the future" 1 Class would also be ugly for the first few years but in the mean time if everybody was speeding school consolidations and closing down the old worn out facilities we would be way further ahead in ten years than experamenting with three classes and seeing it fail....the Players of today dont wanna be bored with the stories of yesteryear they wanna be known for what Class B is today and Class B today has some of the best players playing in it that ever played in it,, what it dont have is all the schools that used to particapate (and it never will).

[classB4ever]

Today it's very hard to find any region in class "B" who has more then four or five decent teams in it. Imagine the overall quality of play in a third class. Please, I'm not putting anyone down... but it wouldn't be pretty..

It would probably be ugly for the first few years, but you never know when some of these teams that haven't won for ages start having some success, the younger kids could get more excited and work on their game and more kids stick with it in the future it could improve by leaps and bounds. That is, if the NDHSAA does something to get more teams on the court by breaking up some co-ops and such. I know its a stretch, but its pretty ignorant for people to say it will only make things worse or it will never work without actually trying to change some things.

"not accepting change doesnt bring back the past, it prevents the future" 1 Class would also be ugly for the first few years but in the mean time if everybody was speeding school consolidations and closing down the old worn out facilities we would be way further ahead in ten years than experamenting with three classes and seeing it fail....the Players of today dont wanna be bored with the stories of yesteryear they wanna be known for what Class B is today and Class B today has some of the best players playing in it that ever played in it,, what it dont have is all the schools that used to particapate (and it never will).

I am not sure what the answer is for basketball in ND. It seems that a lot of plans and ideas will be on the board in the near future. However, "not accepting change doesn't bring back the past, it prevents the future"? It may change the direction things go in the future, but certainly doesn't prevent it.

[jacko]

I have the solution to all of this......They want to reinstate 6-man football back into the state, why not be a leader and introduce 3 on 3 man teams into the state also, wouldn't that be a blast!!!!

[winner-within]

Today it's very hard to find any region in class "B" who has more then four or five decent teams in it. Imagine the overall quality of play in a third class. Please, I'm not putting anyone down... but it wouldn't be pretty..

It would probably be ugly for the first few years, but you never know when some of these teams that haven't won for ages start having some success, the younger kids could get more excited and work on their game and more kids stick with it in the future it could improve by leaps and bounds. That is, if the NDHSAA does something to get more teams on the court by breaking up some co-ops and such. I know its a stretch, but its pretty ignorant for people to say it will only make things worse or it will never work without actually trying to change some things.

"not accepting change doesnt bring back the past, it prevents the future" 1 Class would also be ugly for the first few years but in the mean time if everybody was speeding school consolidations and closing down the old worn out facilities we would be way further ahead in ten years than experamenting with three classes and seeing it fail....the Players of today dont wanna be bored with the stories of yesteryear they wanna be known for what Class B is today and Class B today has some of the best players playing in it that ever played in it,, what it dont have is all the schools that used to particapate (and it never will).

I am not sure what the answer is for basketball in ND. It seems that a lot of plans and ideas will be on the board in the near future. However, "not accepting change doesn't bring back the past, it prevents the future"? It may change the direction things go in the future, but certainly doesn't prevent it.

Oh but I think it does, I got that quote from a Book called "Dakota, A spiritual Geography" it actually was pertaining to the Farmers that wanted to keep farming the way we used to....each small farmer having a chance to keep farming small...well we know what happened there.
Point being If we want to "get with the times" per say then I do know for sure that Three Classes is not the answer....the answer is, don't worry about how many kids are in the school your playing......don't gauge the program by the size of the school.... just play Ball and try to win every game.......the best example of a program like this that comes to my mind is Munich ND... they have never cared who they were playing and their ALWAYS competitive and I know some day in the near future they will be forced to even consolidate further but know one will ever forget the fact that they were a small school with the Heart of a lion.
Point also being as the Farms got bigger know one has forgotten who the individual was that started it all....You wont loose your identity if you join up to become a bigger and better school because your identity is you, not your town....Now, Yes the town that has to close the school will suffer (but it isnt the end of the world) just like the Farmer who had to quit farming.....but the problem is, is we cant stop evolution and I personally believe that three classes is Evolving ND B Ball backwards! I'm thinking of the students not the towns!!

[classB4ever]

Today it's very hard to find any region in class "B" who has more then four or five decent teams in it. Imagine the overall quality of play in a third class. Please, I'm not putting anyone down... but it wouldn't be pretty..

It would probably be ugly for the first few years, but you never know when some of these teams that haven't won for ages start having some success, the younger kids could get more excited and work on their game and more kids stick with it in the future it could improve by leaps and bounds. That is, if the NDHSAA does something to get more teams on the court by breaking up some co-ops and such. I know its a stretch, but its pretty ignorant for people to say it will only make things worse or it will never work without actually trying to change some things.

"not accepting change doesnt bring back the past, it prevents the future" 1 Class would also be ugly for the first few years but in the mean time if everybody was speeding school consolidations and closing down the old worn out facilities we would be way further ahead in ten years than experamenting with three classes and seeing it fail....the Players of today dont wanna be bored with the stories of yesteryear they wanna be known for what Class B is today and Class B today has some of the best players playing in it that ever played in it,, what it dont have is all the schools that used to particapate (and it never will).

I am not sure what the answer is for basketball in ND. It seems that a lot of plans and ideas will be on the board in the near future. However, "not accepting change doesn't bring back the past, it prevents the future"? It may change the direction things go in the future, but certainly doesn't prevent it.

Exactly, I got that quote from a Book called "Dakota, A spiritual Geography" it actually was pertaining to the Farmers that wanted to keep farming the way we used to....each small farmer having a chance to keep farming small...well we know what happened there.
Point being If we want to "get with the times" per say then I do know for sure that Three Classes is not the answer....the answer is, don't worry about how many kids are in the school your playing......don't gauge the program by the size of the school.... just play Ball and try to win every game.......the best example of a program like this that comes to my mind is Munich ND... they have never cared who they were playing and their ALWAYS competitive and I know some day in the near future they will be forced to even consolidate further but know one will ever forget the fact that they were a small school with the Heart of a lion.
Point also being as the Farms got bigger know one has forgotten who the individual was that started it all....You wont loose your identity if you join up to become a bigger and better school because your identity is you, not your town....Now, Yes the town that has to close the school will suffer just like the Farmer who had to quit farming.....but the problem is, is we cant stop evaluation and I personally believe that three classes is Evolving ND B Ball backwards! I'm thinking of the students not the towns!!

winnerwithin, that was a very nice post. I see where you draw a parallel on the two subjects. The conclusions one can draw from it can be many. I have been all over the board on whether or not 3-classes is a viable solution. Reading your post has me leaning more towards keeping 2 classes, but for a different reason. I disagree that you won't lose your identity. You are correct in the fact of small farms going by the wayside. This is a by-product of economics and technology. Using your farming example, a drive through any local region in the state will prove the fact of loss of identity. Only a select few from each region might know "that clump of trees over there was the old 'Smith' farmstead". Or, "Did you know out in the middle of that field is where 'Johny Jones'' house use to be. The identity of many of these small towns is locked in the journals of Class B basketball. Sorry to sound so nostalgic, but truthfully, IMO, what makes Class B basketball special is the identity of these small towns that have been a part of it.
Truth be told, you are 100% correct that it will happen. Just like your farming example. I guess I would prefer it to happen naturally and not rush it. If economics dictate it, then so be it. But let's not rush it.
One last thing. The level of participation will drop dramatically with more co-ops and consolidations. Some kids that use to be 1,2 or 3 on a smaller team, will not go out for teams where they may be asked to simply play a role. Sign of our times.

[winner-within]

Well I appreciate your point a view also........growing up in a small town that the school is now closed and the old Mascot is gone for good is real sad for me but I'm a "glass is half full" type person and I see Complacency with alot of things in our Public school system, I really don't want to rush anything when I say speed up a consolidation I am referring to the schools that consolidate sports but keep three old facilities going...the reality of that scenario is that our economic stability in ND is what is keeping the small schools going....if in fact we were a state under financial stress we would be forced to make fast changes.....I guess in the end that's also what has kept me in this State the fact that things in general move slow (I hate hustle and Bustle).

To brush on the participation thing.i know kids playing now that even get playing time that dont wanna play....whats really changed since I was player is how these players are getting catered to. I always remembered what John Stockton said when he was asked.. "What was the first thing you did when you found out you had been drafted by the Utah Jazz??" he said: "I grabbed my duffel bag and went to practice".

[classB4ever]

A number of years ago, this was one of the greatest debated threads. Got a lot of hits and great participation. Took a while to find it. Thought I would bump it back to the front for some of the newer members to read.

[heimer]

Ah yes, that steve34. Great guy.

[classB4ever]

Ah yes, that steve34. Great guy.

I concur. And a great debater. But as he stated, "I am no master debater". haha

[ndlionsfan]

would be interesting to scroll through all 17 pages and see what schools were mentioned and how their enrollments have changed in the last 4 years

[HammerTime]

Internet archaeology for you.

[HammerTime]

The "Myth" of a David vs. Goliath state championship draws a lot of interest to class B basketball. For those of you who haven't been paying attention, myth has been the reality in the last three years:

2007:
Little Parshall vs. Big, bad, private school Trinity - and Parshall won

2008:
Little Turtle Lake-Mercer vs. BIG Grafton - Grafton won

2009:
Little Dakota Prairie vs. medium sized Linton (who was as unpopular as any "big" or private class B school for reasons we know quite well) - Linton won

The best class B championship game I ever witnessed in person was little Leeds over big, bad, undefeated Trinity 54-53 in 1999 at the Civic Center.

And the best class B championship game I ever watched on TV was little New Rockford over big Bottineau in Minot in 2005.

1998 was a great title game between big Standing Rock and little Leeds, and 2004 was something of a dud between big Trinity and little Milnor.

At any rate, I know that some of you prefer "myths" and don't like it when I compile actual data and results... but your myth has been reality many times.

I'm curious as to how he'd rate the title games since this thread happened. It would be interesting.

[east sider]

2010: Medium sized Carrington vs. little Berthold - Carrington won
2011: little North Star vs. big Grafton - NS won
2012: Big Beulah vs. little North Star - Beulah won in rematch thriller
2013: little Milnor vs. medium Four Winds-Minnewaukan - Milnor won
2014: Private Fargo Oak Grove vs. medium Rugby - OG won

The sky isn't falling....yet

[Bisonguy06]

Good summary. A small public school played for the state B boys championship every year between 2007 and 2013. We could stretch that back by another five years or so if we could just agree that May-Port-CG is not a "Goliath".

Score one for the "sky is falling" folks in 2014.

But those folks might want to take a peek at the 2013 semifinals, which consisted of Milnor, Four Winds, Trenton and LaMoure. All of the Goliaths had been slayed by Davids by the end of the Thursday of that state tournament.

[B-oldtimer]

If you look at class b schools in the state and add up enrollments for all the schools and then divide that by number the average class b school enrollment is about 85 kids in high school. I did that several years ago and I also found that over 60% of schools were under 100 enrollment. Schools that were 140 or greater were around about 25% number of schools in class b. But if you looked at schools over 160 they accounted for accounted for about 15% of the schools and if you looked they nearly all made it to state tournament in 5 year time frame and usually played in the region championship game quite often. Now show me number of schools that have enrollments that have been under school average reaching state tournament and they are nowhere close to their representative numbers in class b. Even schools of size of average are not even closely represented in state tournament. Some of schools you point out being smaller schools like Northstar are in a region that they are still larger than number of teams and they haven't been cooped until this year. When schools coop together in my opinion you could easily reduce count of these coops by 20% because kids don't participate like its one school. There are number of reasons for this but it time and commitment required to participate is one main reasons But a lot of coops came about because of not being able to compete and resulting in drop participation by kids. The large schools have large number of kids to draw from and participate in there sport year around. In the past Class b schools kids played on their own and played it durning the season and when it was over they moved on to another sport or activity. It was not something to be worked at year around for majority of kids this change has changed high school activities greatly over my life time where sports was fun activity but not year around job it is for the kids today. Yes level of play is much better and maybe few more kids play at the next level but I know for sure it doesn't have following it did back then in the past. I guess if you haven't paid attention to school size a lot of schools have shrunk more than people think especially if you don't have kids in school anymore. So that's what gets to me when people say that there have been small schools at state tournament you have to look at current enrollment numbers.

[HammerTime]

Why was Linton unpopular in 2009, again? I don't remember. It all becomes a haze of memories after a while.

[Run4Fun2009]

Why was Linton unpopular in 2009, again? I don't remember. It all becomes a haze of memories after a while.

family transferred from Bottineau to Linton

[HammerTime]

Oh. That explains it. We really hate people moving in this state, don't we?

[yellowjacket]

Hammertime, three very talented brothers moved to Linton, their parents stayed in Bottineau.

[Sniper]

Interesting how everybody hates on Linton for that happening but Shiloh has talented players move in regularly and so many people defend them... I do not understand the difference...

[Sportsrube]

Interesting how everybody hates on Linton for that happening but Shiloh has talented players move in regularly and so many people defend them... I do not understand the difference...

I couldn't agree more Sniper, but you are going to stir up a hornet's nest going after the private schools!

[stir the pot]

Name one team in Region 5 that will defend them Shiloh

[Pit Bull]

Interesting how everybody hates on Linton for that happening but Shiloh has talented players move in regularly and so many people defend them... I do not understand the difference...

I couldn't agree more Sniper, but you are going to stir up a hornet's nest going after the private schools!

Sniper, what is there to defend. Shiloh and Private schools are in well populated areas. Families move to these areas all the time. Some of those families choose to put there kids in Private schools. All of these private schools have to abide by the NDHSAA, just like every other school in the State.

If my memory serves me correctly, a starter from Flasher's bball team last year transferred there in high school and another one was actually in another school district but chose to attend Flasher. Currently there is a student in Middle school (Flasher) that transferred this year. So I am trying to figure out your point? Is it that Private schools have more transfers than rural schools? I would agree since larger towns such as Bismarck are growing while rural areas are shrinking (exception: oil country).

[Sniper]

Interesting how everybody hates on Linton for that happening but Shiloh has talented players move in regularly and so many people defend them... I do not understand the difference...

I couldn't agree more Sniper, but you are going to stir up a hornet's nest going after the private schools!

Sniper, what is there to defend. Shiloh and Private schools are in well populated areas. Families move to these areas all the time. Some of those families choose to put there kids in Private schools. All of these private schools have to abide by the NDHSAA, just like every other school in the State.

If my memory serves me correctly, a starter from Flasher's bball team last year transferred there in high school and another one was actually in another school district but chose to attend Flasher. Currently there is a student in Middle school (Flasher) that transferred this year. So I am trying to figure out your point? Is it that Private schools have more transfers than rural schools? I would agree since larger towns such as Bismarck are growing while rural areas are shrinking (exception: oil country).

So Linton getting 3 brothers is the same as Shiloh getting players every year? My point is that it happened to Linton once and everybody hates them when it happens to Shiloh on a regular basis and they get a pass because they are a private school. I am stating that I do not understand the hate for Linton and used Shiloh as an example of a schools that receives a lot of transfers and does not receive the same kind of hate. Also I am comparing Linton and Shiloh's situation, has nothing to do with Flasher. I could easily start talking about how 3 starters for Shiloh's girls team did not play for them until last year or talk about which players have moved in recently on the boys side or which kids live in Mandan if you want to compare that with Flasher getting one player, who actually lived in Flasher when he was in grade school then had to move because of family and custody reasons and I will not say anymore about his person situation on here.