Top Myths From Class "B" Basketball

[steve34]

Okay, so in a separate forum, I was asked to end my references to "B shot" ball. I thought of responding to it in that forum, but that would only serve to erode that thread further. So, here's a new thread. These myths are the reason why, over the years, I have gone from total respect for B basketball (around 1996 to 2000), to a complete lack of respect for it now, thus my references to "B shot".

Note--If you like Class "B" ball, this thread will pi$$ you off. You may not want to read it.

Top 10 Myths of Class "B" Basketball

10. Class "B" is up-tempo

Not even close. By my observations, at best, style seems to follow a pattern based on affiliation. Since I live in the SE part of the state, I get to see mostly Region I and Region III ball. In Region I, the districts are nowhere near the same. District II is actually pretty good. District I is horribly boring, save for some younger coaches that are beginning to change the game (Example: Brandon Bata at Oakes). District I coaches love the idea of simply limiting mistakes, forcing games into a boring, standaround affair that make me want to get a refund at the ticket booth.

There are a few teams that may get up and down, but by and large, the "up-tempo" stuff was left behind 20 years ago.

9. Class "B" defense is as good as Class "A".

Um....no. 75% of Class B teams I see employ a 2-3 zone as their primary defense, regardless of scheme based on opponent. "B" teams are notorious in college circles for producing scorers that you have to hide in a zone to compensate for their lack of defensive skill.

8. Class "B" is as good as Class "A".

Average "A" teams would beat average "B" teams consistently. Bad "A" teams would win 50% of their games against average "B" teams, and would dominate bad "B" teams. Average "A" teams would challenge good "B" teams. Only a small fraction of "B" teams would compete regularly if they were placed in either of the "A" conferences.

7. A trip to the state "B" tournament is more rare than a trip to the "A" tournament.

The beginning of loser-out play at the "B" level has been cleverly named the "Region" tournament to promote the rarity of a trip to the "state" tourney. In actuality, the state "B" tournament is a 64-team, six-round tournament, in which the first three rounds are played at regional sites. The regional "A" tournaments are actually qualifiers, not loser-out. After the vote to move Valley City back to "A", there will be 20 "A" schools, of which 8 go to state.

20 schools, 8 advance, 40% attend.

In "B", 64 teams advance to state. If each district has 8 teams, half, or 50% of Class "B" teams advance to state. In fact, some teams, like Central Cass, a chief opponent of any three-division system, are virtually guaranteed a trip to state, cleverly mis-identified as "regionals" every year. Even Fargo South or West Fargo do not enjoy that guarantee, as referenced by last year's boys basketball and this year's volleyball seasons.

6. Class "B" is full of tradition.

Years of play is not tradition. The state has had a one-class system, a three-class system, and the current two-class system with a number of current "B" teams at the "A" level. "B" tradition was built basically from the collapse of Class "C" ball (around 1965), to the collapse of Class "A"'s North Star conference (1991). Up until 1965, the three-division system did not add to the "tradition", and the big "B"'s that moved down after the collapse of the North Star ended the "tradition" of B ball by polluting the "regionals" (first three rounds of state) with nearly automatic bids. The "tradition" of 60, 70, 80 years, and so on, of "B" ball is a myth constructed over the past 25 years by superintendents of small schools to make their kids feel relevant. I think those kids are relevant without the myth.

5. Class "B" does not need a shot clock.

The game is called basketball. That means putting a ball in a basket. When you begin playing a game that is built on holding possession of the ball, with no intention of putting the ball in the basket, that game is not basketball. Playing for one shot with 45 seconds left of the quarter in every quarter is rediculous. Having a 15 point lead and not having to play the game in the final 4 minutes absolutely stinks. Those people who defend the "art of being disciplined and playing clean, possession basketball" are spin doctors protecting the idea of just controlling the clock.

In football, you can run the ball to kill the clock, but you at least have to keep moving the ball down the field. If you don't you give it up. In baseball, you can defend a lead by moving your fielders, but you still have to throw pitches and give them an opportunity to hit. In hockey, the other team is allowed to hit the guy with the puck to go get it. Every sport allows you to get the scoring mechanism back if a team plays to defend a lead except for basketball, and in North Dakota, Class "B" basketball.

Oh by the way, before someone starts yelping about "hardly ever", three years ago at the Region I girls tourney, semifinals (meaning, best 32 teams in the state, right?), Fargo Oak Grove vs. Enderlin, end of first quarter, Oak Grove 5, Enderlin, 2.

4. Fargo is a bad place for the Class "B" state tourney

Absolutely false. I've been there for B tournaments, including the state "B". The Dome is a great host for the tournament, there are no atmosphere problems, and the only complaining is from fans that had to drive a long distance or superintendents denied their annual reunion with their other 70+ year old peers that constructed the myth as explained above.

Now, I will grant you that Bismarck is better, but Minot is not. I will also grant that, in the interest of logistics, it's probably better to keep the "B" in either Bismarck or Minot most years due to travel, due to how geography plays into the qualification process. But if you want to argue against Fargo, argue the correct points, not that the city is bad for the tournament, or that the Dome isn't a good atmosphere.

3. Three divisions would wreck "B" basketball.

Completely false. Every plan proposed thusfar would gut "B", which would wreck the "B" division. But three divisions, done correctly, would do nothing but breathe new life into a sport that is growing more stale by the year.

Something like a 16, 16, rest system is totally workable. If you can find a class out of 19 or 20 (as we have at A) then two classes of 16 would be fine. South Dakota's "B" tournament has all the atmosphere you could ever ask for from a high school tournament, and they have three classes.

2. The State "B" tournament is the "grand daddy of them all".

The NDHSAA builds in a bunch of fancy bells and whistles to guarantee themselves an audience that "A" doesn't use. "A" lets the game speak for itself. "B" recognizes every state champion in every sport and activity during it's parade, bringing in fans from all over that have nothing to do with the tournament. They have reunion teams acknowledged all over the place. 30-40% of the eventual audience is there for a reason other than basketball. If "A" did the same things, the attendance would be nearly equal. You shouldn't have to "sell" a tournament that is such a money-making powerhouse.

1. Class "B" isn't broken, so don't change it.

Even the meetings that are going on around the state are acknowleding that revenues from the state tournament are down. Crowds are getting smaller during the regular season, districts, the first three rounds of state ("regionals"), and "state". The shenanigans allowed (or pulled, take your pick) by Linton last year didn't help. Trinity hiding at the "B" level in a region with little competition to unseat them doesn't help any year. The path for 60 schools getting there having to go through Central Cass, Grafton, Linton, and Trinity is getting really old. There's growing dissatisfaction with our current plan, no matter how many Fargo Forum writers and radio broadcasters are "persuaded" to oppose any change.

Sorry, but it's tough to buy into all the glory about "B" ball on this website while being able to observe all of the untruths that surround the game. If even a few people would come forward and acknowledge even a few of these, I could be more complimentary to the game. But right now, I guess someone has to be the critic for a game that appears to have none. Not that there's nothing to critique. It's just that no one really cares except everyone who buys into these "myths".

[baller030]

main complaint is going to state, if u count regionals in b then the wda and eda are basicly the same thing with almost all class a teams "going to state"

[steve34]

Not true in the slightest. The "regionals" at "B" are the start of loser-out play. The regionals are not the start of loser-out play at the "A" level. It is the qualifying round.

EDC or WDA in A = Class "B" districts.

State "A" = "Regionals" and State "B"

[balla45]

Comparing EDC and WDA to districts is a joke. What, 80% of the teams in most districts are not good, is that accurate?

[steve34]

The comparison is completely equal, no matter your attempt to slander it. A bit less than half the teams in each "A" region go to state. A bit less than half the teams in each district go to state. The math is nearly equal.

[balla45]

The comparison is completely equal, no matter your attempt to slander it. A bit less than half the teams in each "A" region go to state. A bit less than half the teams in each district go to state. The math is nearly equal.

Not slandering it. I'm curious though, aren't districts simply a formality? I assume that about 80% of the teams are bad, is that accurate? Class A, there might be one or two teams who everyone knows will go, but no one is really sure about the others, where Class B, it is usually always obvious. Maybe the same percent of teams go, but Class B sends low quality teams while Class A does not.

Almost like comparing the NCAA tournament to the Sweet 16.

[steve34]

I guess the point is that the idea that trips to the state tournament are "rare" for "B" teams is a myth. Since true loser-out (meaning if you lose, you can no longer win a state title) begins at the "regional" level, those games are really the state tournament. That being the case, the percentages of teams attending the state tourney are equal "B" vs. "A".

"B" fans always complain that "A" send 40% of their teams, while "B" sends only 8 of over 120. Fact it that loser-out play doesn't start at the "A" level till the round of 8, while "B" starts it at the round of 64. So, to compare the two, "A"'s 8 is "B"'s 64.

The point was not to compare the quality of competition. The point is to debunk the myth of the "rarity" of a trip to the "B" state tourney. Every year a "B" team makes the round of 64, meaning regionals, they make the state tournament. They make that round through the district process. So, if "B"'s qualifier for state is the district tournament, then "B"'s district compares to "A"'s regionals, which is the qualification process for the "A" state.

[balla45]

Can't argue with that.

[bbjay]

OK, I have to chime in. First off, it's not like your the first to come up with any of your top ten reasons list. Most have been discussed at length in various forums on this and many other sites and venues....so get off your high horse like your feeding class B fans a taste of something they've never had. You're grouping all B and A fans into their seperate category and calling it good.

Also, it's not about loser out play either. It's about going to the state tournament. I get what your saying, I really do. But by your reasoning, the World Series starts in the divisional round of MLB playoffs? The Super Bowl starts on wild card weekend? Doesn't make sense.

99.99% of B fans know that the best talent top to bottom lies at the A level. Class B fans don't go out to support talented players, they go out to support dedicated teams. Sometimes that's all there is to do in Class B towns, that's why people are passionate about it and don't want it to change. Are they wrong? That's why discussions keep coming up...because enough people (class B people) believe it's worth looking into possible changes.

Bismarck is the best city to host the State B. Minot has maybe the best venue with the dome. Fargo has a lot of hotels and restaurants.

The B is the crown jewel, not b/c of what the NDHSAA has done to hype it up, but because of the tradition behind it. The reunions, awards, etc came AFTER the B was started and people saw how important it is to this state.

As far as 3 classes goes, I agree with you there. I actually think a 16-32-rest class system would be exceptional for high school basketball and volleyball.


Your points are noted, have been noted, will be noted again by everybody.

[steve34]

quote--Also, it's not about loser out play either. It's about going to the state tournament. I get what your saying, I really do. But by your reasoning, the World Series starts in the divisional round of MLB playoffs? The Super Bowl starts on wild card weekend? Doesn't make sense.--quote

The World Series is not a tournament. It is a series, a single series of a game that is scheduled in various series, to determine a world champion. Thus the "World Series" is different than the divisional series or the league championship series.

The Super Bowl is a game, not a tournament. It is a game designed to decide a world champion. Thus, it is different than a wild card playoff game, a divisional playoff game, or a conference championship playoff game.

The state tournament is a state tournament. At the beginning of the year, we know how the regions are bracketed against each other in the last three rounds. Therefore, from the start of the regional, we can clearly script a 64-team state tournament immediately after the completion of the district tournaments.

Thus, the beginning of loser-out play is the start of the state tournament. Your description is the result of spin. The NCAA Tournament plays games at the regional level, just like the state "B". But, in the end, the teams advance in loser-out play from start to finish. They don't qualify for another tournament, they compete in the tournament from start to finish. Same as the "State" "B". It starts the Monday of the regional with 64 teams. They progress through "1" tournament to a state champion. They don't qualify for a separate tournament. They just change venues for the final three rounds.

[bbjay]

But it's like your changing the definition of the state B tournament. The state B tournament is a tournament between the winners of the 8 pre-determined regions in the state.

The state A tournament is a tournament between the top 4 teams out of the WDA and EDC tournaments.

MLB playoffs, NFL playoffs, post season basketball (A or B) are equal.

World Series, Super Bowl, State Tournaments are equal.

Again, I see where you're drawing your basis from, the start of loser out play. But why did you stop at regionals? why not go back to district play in games that some districts and conferences have? Loser there is done and can't compete? You're trying to water it down by including, but it doesn't work. So Class A districts are the WDA and EDC. Class A state tournament is regionals. Class A then doesn't have a state tournament. That is something I could agree with.

[steve34]

District play is not the start of loser-out play. You can lose your first-round game and still qualify (with the exception of District I, where the "one-room outhouse" supers decided to play loser-out right away.

"A" regionals are the same thing.

The state tournament begins when your first loss ends your opportunity to win the state title. That extends to the first round of the "B" regionals, but not the "A" regionals. Again, you're speaking from years of spin control. The regionals are not a separate tournament from the state at the "B" level. They are just the first three rounds of the state tournament.

The state tournament would be analagous to the entire NFL playoffs, the entire baseball playoffs, and so on. It is not on the same level as the Super Bowl, or World Series. The state title game matches up with those.

Sorry, you've been conditioned to call it the "regional" tournament your whole life. That's not what it is. 64 teams make the state tournament in North Dakota, just like 64 make the NCAA tournament at the Division I college level. Those tournaments you've learned to call "regionals" are called that just to make the trip to state more special. I agree it's a great achievement to make the Elite 8. That's what the state tournament really is. The regional title games are the Sweet 16, the fourth round, played at the final venue, is the Elite 8, and the state semi-finals are the Final 4, just like at the NCAA level. And just like at the NCAA level, that tournament started way back at regional sites all over the (state) country, with 64 teams in loser-out play.

[baseball]

my turn.

10. like scc said...your just throwing words together to make a list of 10.

9. Class B defense is not as good as Class A, i dont recall ever seeing that statement so i agree with scc again on this one that you are just reaching.

8. class B is no as good as Class A, thats fact. But i have never seen that arguement. the one i have seen is that the best players in Class B are as good as the best players in Class A. if you watch the Lions games you will know that is true. while Class as won the majority of the games lately, how many of them games have they just walked into both games of the year and just cleaned house with the b team?

7. If making regionals is the same as making it to state just because its the start of single elimination, then that means all 64 teams who make the NCAA tourney can say they made the Elite Eight? good try with that one....

6. There is tradition in class B, just like Class A, so whats your point? its a different kind of tradtion. BHS has great tradtion by making a large number a state tourneys with multiple titles. but what Class A schools havent made multiple state tourneys...after all, its NOT AS RARE as in Class B. to me, its more impressive the number of state tourney appearances by teams like Linton and dix Trinity compared to BHS making 8 state tourneys in the 00s, or however many they went to.

5. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=4339&hilit=+shot+clock
there is a link to a topic i started a while back about why class B doesnt need a shot clock. on average, a class B team scores at the same pace a Class A team does. the final scores just arent has high most of the time because they play 4 more minutes in Class A. Why does Class B need a shot clock, because Class A does? How about Class A joins the 85% of the rest of the country who doesnt use one...

4. its better then Jamestown, but when Bismarck and Minot are options, not a good host.

3. while it wouldnt "wreck" Class B, it sure wouldnt improve it. it would just add to the fact that people are too sensative in this time compared to years ago in the fact that everyone should win despite not working as hard as some other teams. going to a 3 class system just offered more teams trophies. if your going to make a change, go Indiana with it and just make one class so the state champion IS the state champion.

2. Do people come back from out of state just because BHS, Dicksinson, West Fargo, etc. make state? Its not the grand daddy of them all just because is "The B" its the grand daddy of them all because like was stated before, towns basically shut down when their school makes state so all the towns people can go support the school.

1. how is it broke? because 3 kids moved to Linton? Trinity in a non-competative region just proved you dont know anything about Class B bassketball. They have had plenty competiton over the years. Bowman -with Tivis and Pauley? Killdeer with Dufault and wheeling? Hettinger with Jeff Smith? Glen Ullin with Jaden Voth? Hazen. The fact Trinity continues to come out of that region is nothing short of impressive. It's bad to see Linton and Trinity in state multiple times, yet you have no problem with teams like BHS and dickinson going to all theres "state" tourneys?

[baller030]

How bout this state is state it is going to play with the top 8 teams in the state class A or B in the predetermined city i.e. minot, bismarck, fargo. Its not districts, regionals, edc, wdc.

[ndlionsfan]

Where did you grow up and go to school Steve? I know in other topics you have said you live in the Hope-Page district. Here's the difference between class B and class A. You take your top ten list into a game at Hope, Page, Northern Cass, Maple Valley, etc and announce it over the PA system and see if you don't get run right out of that gym. I'll make the same type of list of nonsense "myths" about class A ball and do the same thing at a game in Red River, South, Minot, etc. and I bet no one even turns a head. That's what makes class B ball special...the town's dedication and passion for their home team.

I'll agree with whoever said it in a previous post....what has brought class B down a bit is all the consolidation and co-ops because fans aren't supporting the home town team anymore, is usually 2-3 or more towns so fans don't know all the kids on the team and there are fewer actual "home" games throughout the season. I also think moving the girls season has had an effect because it gets to be just too much bball for a small town to support. They pick and choose which games to attend instead of going to every single one.

[steve34]

First of all, the Elite 8 is not the round of 64. The tournament is the tournament, one continuous tournament, so, until you can successfully argue against that, don't even bother. You just make yourself look silly.

Second, Lionsfan, I understand that basketball is the lone source of identity for many of those towns, so sure, there is passion behind their school. That part is special. But the "B" aura isn't special. That's part of the myth. To those fans, their team is special, and thats where the speciality ends.

Finally, there aren't many myths about A ball because A hasn't gone about creating this monster to sell itself like B has. The game is the game.

[classB4ever]

steve34,
You have one big chip on your shoulder. 75% of these so called "myths" you state are probably "one and done" statements you have heard over the years and you store them in your memory bank to bring back when you feel it's necessary to have some ammunition for whatever reason.
A large part of the tradition goes back to the fact of small town life. There are not a lot of things going on in small towns every night, so when a basketball game is played, the following is to be expected. Not to mention that most people have relatives, close friends, etc. playing.
So, steve, you keep using the B-shot remark. It apparently makes you feel better and everyone on here feels better when you feel better. Can I start using steve-shot whenever I have something cynical to say?

[Tigger]

Does that mean everyone goes to state in Minnesota? You should look up the impact on Indiana when they decided to add classes to basketball. I'm not saying that it would be as devastating to ND, but it would water down the enthusiasm a little bit.

[imperials]

District play is not the start of loser-out play. You can lose your first-round game and still qualify (with the exception of District I, where the "one-room outhouse" supers decided to play loser-out right away.

"A" regionals are the same thing.

The state tournament begins when your first loss ends your opportunity to win the state title. That extends to the first round of the "B" regionals, but not the "A" regionals. Again, you're speaking from years of spin control. The regionals are not a separate tournament from the state at the "B" level. They are just the first three rounds of the state tournament.

The state tournament would be analagous to the entire NFL playoffs, the entire baseball playoffs, and so on. It is not on the same level as the Super Bowl, or World Series. The state title game matches up with those.

Sorry, you've been conditioned to call it the "regional" tournament your whole life. That's not what it is. 64 teams make the state tournament in North Dakota, just like 64 make the NCAA tournament at the Division I college level. Those tournaments you've learned to call "regionals" are called that just to make the trip to state more special. I agree it's a great achievement to make the Elite 8. That's what the state tournament really is. The regional title games are the Sweet 16, the fourth round, played at the final venue, is the Elite 8, and the state semi-finals are the Final 4, just like at the NCAA level. And just like at the NCAA level, that tournament started way back at regional sites all over the (state) country, with 64 teams in loser-out play.

very well said

[steve34]

Believe it or not, these 10 myths are what small school administrators cling to in defense of everything, from their current system, to where games are played, to why its "better" than A. So, when I use the term "B-shot" it incorporates all of these myths into one nice, neat package.

[classB4ever]

Believe it or not, these 10 myths are what small school administrators cling to in defense of everything, from their current system, to where games are played, to why its "better" than A. So, when I use the term "B-shot" it incorporates all of these myths into one nice, neat package.

Nice neat package, gotta love it. So the problem is the hoopla created over calling the event when 8 teams are left, the "State Class B Tournamaent"?
You use terms like "virtually guaranteed" at the district level to support your claims. However, virtually guaranteed means nothing. Just because you come to a district tournament seeded 1, does not mean you are going to the 2nd round of your "hypothetical State Tournament". Sure, you lose one game your not done, but if you lose the next you are. No. 1 seed comes in, one kid fouls out, another twists his ankle and all of a sudden there are no guarantees, because the depth isn't there in "B-shot" basketball. So when you start slamming small school administrators for clinging onto ideas based on myths, why don't you take a step back and look at some of the reasoning you use to substantiate your claims.

[Flying Wallenda]

Believe it or not, these 10 myths are what small school administrators cling to in defense of everything, from their current system, to where games are played, to why its "better" than A. So, when I use the term "B-shot" it incorporates all of these myths into one nice, neat package.

I presume you are a small school administrator considering your apparent on going conversation's with these individuals?

[steve34]

4ever, the point is that, every year, there are teams that, because of their enrollment size, are virtually guaranteed a spot in the region. How often will Central Cass not make Region I, Grafton Region II, Linton III, Carrington IV, Trinity VII, Watford City VIII, and so on. That's not what your beloved Class "B" is supposed to be about. Unfortunately, that's what it's turned out to be. You can throw all the hypothetical "twisted ankles and foul trouble" at me all you want, and it still doesn't defeat the idea.

And I hear the endless rhetoric from these administrators, so I don't need the conversation. It was read loud and proud in the Forum the other day, and guess who it was: the AD from Central Cass.

[winner-within]

I Admire your creativeness and passion on this subject Steve, you would make a great politician, maybe you grew up in a class B town riding the pines or something but ironically the biggest myth of this thread is you disliking class B ball and actually liking class A ball, I think you actually like the B-shot crowd and wish you were part of it.
Now my biggest gripe with class B ball is its not near the competition it used to be 20 years ago and even ten years ago, its becoming like class A real fast, the arrogance is on the increase with both fans and players, the fundamentals of the game are going by the way side and the attendance are taking place only if the team is good.
To dissect Class B in this way and do a David Letterman top ten list is virtually nonsense your basing your myths on a few opinions of others not on the game itself.

[steve34]

I have been a part of many Class "B" crowds, so thanks for your thoughts, but they are off base. I grew up in both Class "A" and "B" towns, as a varsity wrestler. So, there was no pine riding for me.

I'm way better at disecting Class "B" than you are at dissecting my mind. Good effort, though.