Class B????

[mplsfan]

Wow, two responses and both to some degree in agreement with my line of thinking. I was sure I would be lambasted for that one. NDLF, I understand your point about distance. A real problem is some situations I'm sure. I would guess that there are also some situations that are being dictated more by community pride than distance issues. Example:I have a hard time understanding why both Newburg and Westhope are in operation as separate high schools. Then again combining them still wouldn't create a high school enrollment of over 100 students. It's a real problem without a simple solution.

[NDSportsFan]

Perhaps the future will have school like Cass Valley North, or Central Valley, which are located between towns. Maybe there are some other examples? Montana has a lot of the same problems that North Dakota does. They have very tiny towns and even greater distances between them, I'm not sure what they are doing to keep them going, I don't think they have a solution, but I know that they operate with more classes than the NDHSAA has.

As long as grain prices and oil prices don't return to really low levels, I think that rural North Dakota should be okay in keeping the majority of schools open. Any thoughts on that? (I might be off)

[scruffy]

It boils down to this. Todays families are smaller, AND there are fewer of them. This is a trend that began in the early 80's and will not change. Economics will determine who stays open. It does not pencil out if a school has fewer then twenty to twenty-five students per class. The state has to realize this and act accordingly. They owe the state taxpayers this.

[Unity77]

Wow, two responses and both to some degree in agreement with my line of thinking. I was sure I would be lambasted for that one. NDLF, I understand your point about distance. A real problem is some situations I'm sure. I would guess that there are also some situations that are being dictated more by community pride than distance issues. Example:I have a hard time understanding why both Newburg and Westhope are in operation as separate high schools. Then again combining them still wouldn't create a high school enrollment of over 100 students. It's a real problem without a simple solution.

It's definitely a pride issue. I can't imagine citizens of Park River, Minto, and other communities being happy about their kids having to attend school in Grafton. Once a town loses its high school, it loses part of its identity. However, people have to face reality and the reality is that there are issues such as lost jobs or lack thereof; kids leaving after graduation and not returning; families getting smaller (1 or 2 children instead of 5), etc... It will be interesting to see what happens to ND in the next 20 years.

[AC-DC]

I just wanted to through in another agreement with the need for school consolidation. If schools need to Co-Op for sports teams they probably have much bigger educational and financial issues. Unfortunately, distance is a major issue in ND, but travelling further for everything is common. Losing the hometown school may be the final coffin nail for some towns, but someone needs to make the tough decisions. I'm not saying I have any answers, but if the local comunities can't work it out, maybe the state should step in.

[ClassBEast]

Here's an interesting article on ND's population increases/decreases last year:

Cass County growth leads North Dakota
Patrick Springer, The Forum
Published Thursday, March 20, 2008

Bear with the seeming contradiction: Cass County gained more people over the past year than North Dakota did in the latest census estimates.

That’s right. Cass County’s estimated population grew by 2,424 during the year ending July 1, 2007, a period that saw North Dakota’s overall population gain 2,255, according to new census figures.

Burleigh County followed with a gain of 1,633, as North Dakota’s gradually rebounding population has spread to fifteen counties, many clustered in the western oil patch.

But the exodus from most rural areas in the state continued, with the remaining 38 counties shrinking in the estimates, which explains how Cass County managed to gain more people than North Dakota.

“Have we reached the point that Cass is now such a powerhouse from the east that they just continue to keep drawing from other places?” asked Kevin Iverson, a research analyst for Job Service North Dakota who tracks employment and population trends.

Iverson and demographer Richard Rathge, director of the North Dakota State Data Center, both expected the energy boom in western North Dakota might mean population growth in Bismarck-Mandan would overtake gains in Fargo and West Fargo.

But that didn’t happen, according to the estimates. Morton County, which includes Mandan, grew by 355. Many of the other growth areas are in the state’s western oil patch.

Surprisingly, Grand Forks County dipped by 151, according to the estimates, and Ward County, which includes Minot, lost 179.

Rathge and Iverson expect the continued energy boom, as well as high farm-commodity prices, mean population growth will continue. Still, Iverson said, Cass County’s job growth continues to outpace other areas, according to the latest employment figures.

Tellingly, more young adults are showing up in North Dakota’s population and employment numbers. That’s an important segment because it includes most new parents, and therefore likely is a harbinger of future growth, Rath-ge said.

Although North Dakota’s estimated population has been gradually rising since 2004, the state still lags behind the 2000 census count of 642,200. As of July 1, 2007, North Dakota’s estimated population was 639,715.

Clay County grew by an estimated 706 people, bringing Fargo-Moorhead’s estimated population, composed of Cass and Clay, to 192,417, an increase of 3,130 over the past year.

David Martin, president of the Chamber of Commerce of Fargo Moorhead, attributed the growth to business expansion and relocation, growing enrollment at North Dakota State University, and Fargo-Moorhead’s increasing role as a retirement center.

Brian Walters, who heads the Greater Fargo Moorhead Economic Development Corp., said the metro area has about 3,000 unfilled job openings.

“We have more jobs than people right now,” he said. While the short-term outlook calls for more growth, sustaining that growth over the long term will be a challenge because of demographic trends and the relative lack of emerging industries, he said.

To keep growing, Fargo-Moorhead must draw from a wider area. Doing that will require growth in key sectors, such as biotechnology.

“We’re going to have to see the wage rates go up to attract more people,” Walters said.

North Dakota population gains, losses

Gain Area 2007 2006 % change

2,424 Cass County 137,582 135,158 1.76%

1,633 Burleigh County 77,316 75,683 2.11%

355 Morton County 25,926 25,571 1.37%

318 Stark County 22,458 22,140 1.42%

283 Williams County 19,540 19,257 1.45%


Loss Area 2007 2006 % change

-286 Stutsman County 20,480 20,766 -1.40%

-262 Richland County 16,498 16,760 -1.59%

-228 Pembina County 7,531 7,759 -3.03%

-207 Walsh County 11,011 11,218 -1.88%

-179 Ward County 55,927 56,106 -0.32%

[ndlionsfan]

Wow, two responses and both to some degree in agreement with my line of thinking. I was sure I would be lambasted for that one. NDLF, I understand your point about distance. A real problem is some situations I'm sure. I would guess that there are also some situations that are being dictated more by community pride than distance issues. Example:I have a hard time understanding why both Newburg and Westhope are in operation as separate high schools. Then again combining them still wouldn't create a high school enrollment of over 100 students. It's a real problem without a simple solution.

I agree with you about towns like Westhope and Newburg. You'd think towns that are losing enrollment like that would want to join up instead of risking running out of money and closing. Drake and Anamoose are two other towns. Both have less than 100 kids in their entire school and are only 6 miles apart. Community pride has a lot to do with it, too. Another thing is that schools in these small towns are usually the largest employers. IF the school goes, a bunch of jobs go, and even more people go with it and the town dies off.

[ndlionsfan]

It boils down to this. Todays families are smaller, AND there are fewer of them. This is a trend that began in the early 80's and will not change. Economics will determine who stays open. It does not pencil out if a school has fewer then twenty to twenty-five students per class. The state has to realize this and act accordingly. They owe the state taxpayers this.

20-25 per grade (250-325 total enrollment) is probably optimal financially because you only have to employ 1 teacher per grade basically. When you get larger than that, most schools split the classes and you have two teachers per grade. However, as a teacher myself, 12-18 in class (150-225 total)is optimal for learning and is still financially viable as well. It's when school start getting down there 10 or less students per grade (under 120) is when I think consolidation needs to be seriously looked at.

[scruffy]

ndlionsfan, I didn't mean 20 to 25 kids per class session, I meant 20-25 kids per graduating class.... AND I meant high school enrollment. Electives and the seven or eight classes per day easily allows a classroom size of 12-15 kids.... I think a school district can keep elementary schools open with fewer then 20-25 kids per graduating class mainly because they can get by with less staff due to a much more limited selection of elective courses that is offered at that level.....

[ndlionsfan]

I know you meant 20-25 per graduating class. I'm saying that you will usually have that many per class session, too. You will definitely have that in elementary thru JH and the students will usually stick together in their high school classes.....at least in the core required classes like math, english, science, history, etc. You'll get a different selection of students in your elective classes. Right now in my high school math classes I usually have all but 1-2 in the entire grade.

[scruffy]

Why don't your math instructors teach more sessions per day.. At the high school my child attends, he's had from six to 14 students per math class. His class has 36 students. I think the high school has two math teachers that teach grades 9-12 but they do offer SEVERAL different math classes. Maybe you don't have as many elective math courses to choose from...Even with your optimal number of 150 kids enrolled that means you would average 37.5 students per graduating class, and at that point a school can't get by with one teacher handling the core classes. We have at LEAST two teaching all of our core subjects. I agree that any high school with much less then that (20-25 per class) can't viably leave their doors open. At that point it is unfair to both the taxpayer because the cost per student soars, AND student because his or her class choices are greatly reduced.....

[ndlionsfan]

Why don't your math instructors teach more sessions per day.. At the high school my child attends, he's had from six to 14 students per math class. His class has 36 students. I think the high school has two math teachers that teach grades 9-12 but they do offer SEVERAL different math classes. Maybe you don't have as many elective math courses to choose from...Even with your optimal number of 150 kids enrolled that means you would average 37.5 students per graduating class, and at that point a school can't get by with one teacher handling the core classes. We have at LEAST two teaching all of our core subjects. I agree that any high school with much less then that (20-25 per class) can't viably leave their doors open. At that point it is unfair to both the taxpayer because the cost per student soars, AND student because his or her class choices are greatly reduced.....

At the school I teach at (plus the last school I taught at and the school I graduated from) there is only 1 math teacher and always has been. Even when class sizes were up around 20-25 students. Right now our average in 7-12 is 15-16 students per class and little under 200 total enrollment. I teach 7th, 8th, Algebra (9th), Geometry (10th), Adv Algebra (11th), and college Alg (12th). That is the course schedule 95% of the students take on their way through to graduation. Our computer teacher also teaches a basic math class for students who are not ready for Alg when they are freshmen. Like I said before, this is the norm in many schools in ND. Yeah, the larger schools have 2 or more teachers per subject and offer more electives but that is becoming less and less viable with declining enrollments and RIF's each year.

[scruffy]

Wow! I didn't realize how lucky we are! Thanks for the info. It just proves that this state will have to bite the bullet and do what's best for the students...Declining enrollment is not a short term problem that will go away.....

[ndlionsfan]

Wow! I didn't realize how lucky we are! Thanks for the info. It just proves that this state will have to bite the bullet and do what's best for the students...Declining enrollment is not a short term problem that will go away.....

I think the curriculum we offer is more than adaquate for our students.

[baseball]

when i graduated we had:
2 math teachers (7th and 8th, and high school)
1 science teacher all grades 7-12
1 shop teacher 7-12
1 business/accounting teacher 9-12
2 english teachers (JH then HS)
1 history teacher 7-12
1 music teacher 7-12

you guys can look into it what you want but i just thought i would post the numbers since some posts have been said about having 2 or more teachers do some classes....

[Flip]

Here are the enrollment cutoffs for Minnesota (9-12)
A is 217 or less
AA is 218 to 556
AAA is 557 to 1164
AAAA is 1165-3099

This might be a little nick picky, but basketball in Minnesota doesn't really have "cutoffs."
AAAA is the largest 64 schools
AAA is the next 64 schools
AA is the next 128 schools
A is everyone else, about 170 schools

This is subject to change every 2 years I believe.