State Tournament Pairings

[north_border_eagles2106]

I do not know what the pairings are this year for the state tournament, but I want to discuss a much better alternative to setting up "The B."

Each week of this season someone has started a topic about the poll for that specific week. Each week that topic is usually discussed for 2-3 pages. So if this poll seems to be such a big deal to everyone, why shouldn't it affect the season? This is what I propose they do with the poll. After each Region championship game when the "Elite Eight" is set in place, set up the state brackets based on the ranking in the poll. I don't like when they have the state pairings set in place before the tournament is set up. It has prevented some great state championship games in the past. In 2004, New Rockford played Dickinson Trinity in the first round. These two teams I believe were ranked 1 and 2 in the state. It really took away from New Rockford's accomplishments that year by having them play the number 1 team in state the first night. I believe they won their next 2 games but 15+ points to take 5th. It has always got under my skin that they don't use the rankings in the poll for anything but bragging rights.

What does everyone else think of this?

[mags]

so your saying make a another poll based a lot on the old polls after the region tourney cuz i think that is nessesary becuz teams change a lot through 6 tourney games sometimes

but yeah i like what u r saying i think that would bring out the cinderella even more too at the state tournament

[north_border_eagles2106]

so your saying make a another poll based a lot on the old polls after the region tourney cuz i think that is nessesary becuz teams change a lot through 6 tourney games sometimes

but yeah i like what u r saying i think that would bring out the cinderella even more too at the state tournament

Yeah make a final poll after the region championship games are played and set up the tournament that way. Then you have a better chance to have a state championship game worth watching.

[ndlionsfan]

I don't mind the idea of the state tourney being seeded, but I definitely don't agree with using a poll to do it. Look at the final poll down below. 12 of the 16 teams that are rated or receiving votes are from the eastern half of the state. Who makes up the poll? Sportswriters and media. Where do most of them live? The eastern part of the state. My point being is that the polls don't show a fair representation of the best 10 teams in the state because a majority of the people making the polls haven't seen more than 10-15 teams play themselves and just go on what they hear from other people who might have different opinions. In my opinion looking at this last poll, I would put TLM much higher, drop DP, Thompson, and Linton completely out of the picture, and put Dunseith and MS into the top ten. Ask someone else and they would completely disagree. Any other ideas on how to seed the state tourney?


Final NDAPSSA Class 'B' Boys Basketball Poll
Released February 18, 2008
First Place Votes in Parentheses

Team Record Points Last Week
1 Watford City (8) 19-0 80 1
2 Bishop Ryan 18-1 68 3
3 Hankinson 18-1 57 4
4 LaMoure 18-1 50 2
5 North Border 18-1 47 5
6 Turtle Lake-Mercer 18-1 36 6
7 Grafton 17-2 30 8
8 Richland 16-3 27 7
9 Lisbon 16-3 17 10
10 Dakota Prairie 14-4 8 NR

Others Receiving Votes: Thompson (14-5), Munich-Starkweather (15-3), Richardton-Taylor (15-4), Dunseith (16-3), New Rockford-Sheyenne (15-3), Linton (13-5).

[MGUNVILLE]

I agree with you ndlionsfan. The people that make up the poll don't even see most of the teams play.

[kevin1633]

pretty much all coaches have email right? after the 8 teams have been decided for the state tournament how about they take a poll of how the teams should be reseeded from coaches and the media. most of the time there is almost a week between the regional championships and the first round of state. i think this would help avoiding a 1 vs. 2 match-up in the first round.

[ndlionsfan]

Still, the coaches don't get to see all the teams in the state either. It really wouldn't be any different than the current poll. Coaches on the east side would rate their teams higher and coaches on the west side would do the same.

[north_border_eagles2106]

They could look at the record of the teams going into state, look at the records of the teams they beat and were defeated by and figure it out that way. Use the "strength of schedule" as a factor in determining it. I don't think it's ever going to happen which will prevent a better state tournament but it is a shame when you see the second best team in state only once on TV if you can't make it to the tournament because they got beat by the best team in state in the first round.

[hp fan]

How do they decide it now? Is it predetermined by the NDHSAA?

I would say that you set up the State tourney based on the previous years results. If region 1 is the champion and region 2 takes 8th, then next year in the frist round region 1 plays region 8. And so on.

[north_border_eagles2106]

How do they decide it now? Is it predetermined by the NDHSAA?

I would say that you set up the State tourney based on the previous years results. If region 1 is the champion and region 2 takes 8th, then next year in the frist round region 1 plays region 8. And so on.

That is a good idea. I just don't think it should be that hard when they look at the teams going into next year to be able to evaluate where the toughest regions are and keep them away from each other in first round play. I don't think it'd be that hard once regionals are over to make it even. Scc, your argument about two of the best teams in one region really doesn't make sense. Obviously they know only one is going to state but once the teams make it to state you look at those teams as 1-8 and figure out who's the best team at state and so on.

[hp fan]

How do they decide it now? Is it predetermined by the NDHSAA?

I would say that you set up the State tourney based on the previous years results. If region 1 is the champion and region 2 takes 8th, then next year in the frist round region 1 plays region 8. And so on.

That is a good idea. I just don't think it should be that hard when they look at the teams going into next year to be able to evaluate where the toughest regions are and keep them away from each other in first round play. I don't think it'd be that hard once regionals are over to make it even. Scc, your argument about two of the best teams in one region really doesn't make sense. Obviously they know only one is going to state but once the teams make it to state you look at those teams as 1-8 and figure out who's the best team at state and so on.

I like the discussion, but come on, look at how "we" (ND PRreps) argue about silly weekly polls. What would happen if some pollster subjectively decided A is better than B and B is better than C. It would be extremely hard when A region winner from the East and a region winner from the west have no common comparison. The only way I think it could work is if you had a formula that maybe took into consideration, team record, and the records of their opponents.

I guess I feel if you have someone just say this is our ranking. We are pening up a real can of worms.

[Flip]

I like the idea of a formula. minnesota-scores.net has a quality results forumula (QRF). The QRF is based on 4 things: win or loss, opponent wins, class differential between teams ( probably wouldn't need this in ND), and margin of victory or defeat with a cap on both ends. I don't think it would be too difficult to do something similar in ND. The great thing about this formula it is based completely on what is done on the court and not on someone's personal feelings on who is better.

btw MN doesn't use this formula for anything, its just fun to take a look debate

[hp fan]

I like that!!! Not necessarly for seeding the state tourney, but I think that ND should use that instead of the poll. Very nice!!!

[Hinsa]

Just in case anybody doesn't know, the state pairings are simply done on a rotating basis. The same rotation has been in place forever. It's a seven year rotation - each region plays a different region each year until they have all played each other. That takes seven years because there are 7 regions besides your own.

No politics, no arguements, no ratings, no decisions. The NDHSAA has enough controversy to handle without having to worry about seeding the state tournament.

Wrestling is about the only sport that can get away with seeding because almost all the top wrestlers wrestle each other or have competed in the same tournaments so you have head to head matchups or common tournament placings to go by for seeding.

[north_border_eagles2106]

That's the whole reason for this topic. What they could do to make the tournament better. The state tournament pairings shouldn't be done with a "lottery". The districts and regionals use seedings so why not the big dance?

[mags]

if everyone is going to complain about seeding teams then go straight by records and if u notice the state right now is ranked watford and then the 1 loss teams so other then the last couple spots there isnt much agruing

[nadal11]

ok seriously it is stuipid to think that nd does not need to seed the state tournament, b/c they definently due! just look at every big tournament, ncaa, nba playoffs, nfl, nhl all these sports the teams are seeded! if they can seed 64 teams in one night i would hope a bunch of people could sit down and seed 8 teams! come on now...it would make for better games in the semi's and finals...just common sense. who wants to watch a 60-40 championship game?

[Metron12610]

ok seriously it is stuipid to think that nd does not need to seed the state tournament, b/c they definently due! just look at every big tournament, ncaa, nba playoffs, nfl, nhl all these sports the teams are seeded! if they can seed 64 teams in one night i would hope a bunch of people could sit down and seed 8 teams! come on now...it would make for better games in the semi's and finals...just common sense. who wants to watch a 60-40 championship game?

OK, because it is stupid, lets think about your comment. NCAA you are correct, it is a political, guesstamated, seeding process. NBA, NFL, and NHL are seeded by win and losses in there conference and it is (like the b) predetermined who they will play prior to the start of the season. Not the specific team they play, but similar to our district and regional tourneys and far as 1 vs. 8 etc... So lets not assume that "every big tournament" is seeded by press. And if you want someone to determine the seeding, think of the BCS......HORROR!!! So "common sense" tells me to leave it as it is because there hasn't been to many 60-40 championship games. And yes, it does happen when two great teams are in the same bracket, but to be the best you have to beat the best.

[triplebbb]

Didn't ND have a Power Formula back when they went to 24 districts? They used it to determine which 2 districts would get a third team in regionals since there were only 3 districts per region. I think you got 100 points for a win and 10 points for each win of your opponents. Anyone else remember something like this?

[ndlionsfan]

I don't remember anything like that....it was usually the 2 3rd place teams with the best records advancing to regionals.

[triplebbb]

Maybe the formula was just for tie breakers. Thanks.

[north_border_eagles2106]

ok seriously it is stuipid to think that nd does not need to seed the state tournament, b/c they definently due! just look at every big tournament, ncaa, nba playoffs, nfl, nhl all these sports the teams are seeded! if they can seed 64 teams in one night i would hope a bunch of people could sit down and seed 8 teams! come on now...it would make for better games in the semi's and finals...just common sense. who wants to watch a 60-40 championship game?

OK, because it is stupid, lets think about your comment. NCAA you are correct, it is a political, guesstamated, seeding process. NBA, NFL, and NHL are seeded by win and losses in there conference and it is (like the b) predetermined who they will play prior to the start of the season. Not the specific team they play, but similar to our district and regional tourneys and far as 1 vs. 8 etc... So lets not assume that "every big tournament" is seeded by press. And if you want someone to determine the seeding, think of the BCS......HORROR!!! So "common sense" tells me to leave it as it is because there hasn't been to many 60-40 championship games. And yes, it does happen when two great teams are in the same bracket, but to be the best you have to beat the best.

Obviously you do but have to beat the best but I don't think it's fair to the best teams that have to beat the best in the first round then they end up taking fifth when a team out of a weak region gets in the championship game cause they have easier opponents. Like the 2004 tournament for example. I have a hard time believing that Milnor was a better team than New Rockford. New Rockford just had to play Trinity in the first round. Milnor was absolutely owned by Trinity that year. I'd like to see them change it.

[Hinsa]

Do you go out to State to try to place high or to win the title? If you're trying to win the title, it doesn't matter who you are paired with - you have to beat the best teams anyway.

[north_border_eagles2106]

You don't get it.

[Hinsa]

I think I do get it....I just don't think it's necessary to seed the tournament. So what if a bracket is stacked? That's one of the things that gives the state tournament variety every year is the different chance matchups in the earlier rounds. If 1 played 8 every year, the first day could become pretty boring.