Who is responsible for keeping scores close?

[bigpoppakdog]

This topic appears in region 5, as directed should be a topic by itself..so here goes...

Should another team purposely "play down" to the competition they are facing? I believe no. On the varsity level you are competing against each other. As a coach, you are responsible for many things, but the main one is developing your team not somebody else's team. I've sat the bench and have heard other coaches yelling at their team(majority of their coaching was poor) and then making comments on how I it was my fault that the score was so bad..My response would be "coach your team and then maybe you wouldn't have that problem." I've also seen when a team has "played down" to the other teams level and it embarassed that team even more-having players drive to the basket only to dribble back out and restart the offense. Bottom line, is it "classy" well that is debatable....is it poor sportsmanship...I think not....on the younger levels...I think it might be a different story, but on the varsity level no....you are putting the best you have on the floor..if that means you are 30 to 40 points worse, then thats what it means..doesn't do anybody any good to allow them to look only 20 points worse....I've been on teams years ago that we god it handed to us...never did we complain about their coach or them...we looked at ourselves and said we need to get better...and we did...ended up beating teams the following year that handed it to us the year before...that's what you need to take in life also....don't feel sorry or blame others, look at what you can do to improve and do it....then you can enjoy what you have earned..not what somebody gave you...thats my two cents....

[Hinsa]

Thanks for starting the new thread, kdog!

[ndlionsfan]

I've been keeping up with this conversation in the region 5 topic and here are my thoughts. I've coached bball teams from 4th graders up to varsity. Like you and others have said, I've gotten beat by 40 and won by 40. On the lower levels (up thru JH) I don't agree with running up the score. Players that young don't really look at it as "we need to work harder to get better", they mostly look at it like "we're terrible and basketball not cool". Then they don't work on it to get better and lose the experience of playing HS ball because they quit. I think coaches whose team get up by a lot in JH or elementary should call off the press and work on running their offenses thru or working on other things that need improvement. You know, just so the clock keeps running and the ball isn't going thru the hoop every 10 seconds. On JV and varsity I guess I can see it both ways. As a coach, if we were up by 20-30 in the 4th I put in the subs just so I don't have a key player blowing out a knee in a meaningless game. I don't do it to necessarily keep the score from getting out of hand, tho. I always tell my players I don't care if we're up by 50 or down by 50, if you're on the floor you're playing as hard as you would if it was a tie game in the state championship game. If we're up by 30 and I put my JV in I actually expect them to continue outscoring the other team. Am I still going to press? Probably not unless we really need work on it. But I'm not going to stall on offense or pass up good shots or lay off on defense. That's my thoughts I guess. Anyone else?

[biggest ticket]

Its not the coaches job to worry about the other teams feelings. These are young men or ladies. Their job is too map out a game plan for the game and then follow through with it. If your game plan gets you that 40 point lead then actually you did your job for that evening. The losing team and coach need to work on a better game plan for the next time. Look at TL-M vs Center. The first time they played they both just went out and played a basketball game. TL-M ran them off the court 30 some pt win. The next time they played not even a month later Center lost by 1 or 4 or something. Center coach and players made a game plan and followed through with it. If Center tweaks their game plan or executes a little better they beat TL-M.

A pretty good ol school coach gave me this advice. You never pull your dogs off unless they tap out. Never change the game plan. In other words if your getting beat and its 30 going on 40 and you want it stop. You have to sub all your starters out or tap out. Then the team winning has to sub out. He told me that never to punish (or sub) your players out for doing a good job that particular night. At the other end when your game plan didnt work and your getting worked over. Its nice to get it over and get to the next game so sub out anyways.

[toughregion2]

You are right you dont sub unless they do if your up, BUT these are kids not pro athletes this is suppose to be fun not something you have to do. In high school call the dogs off if you are up late in the 4th. One thing about hs sports is what comes around goes around. Teams reload with different caliber players year in and year out.

[bigpoppakdog]

You are right you dont sub unless they do if your up, BUT these are kids not pro athletes this is suppose to be fun not something you have to do. In high school call the dogs off if you are up late in the 4th. One thing about hs sports is what comes around goes around. Teams reload with different caliber players year in and year out.

absolutely true with the teams reloading....yes these kids are not pro athletes....but the "competition" is what makes the game fun...I never shed a tear as a player or a coach when the final score was substantially in our favor....if you have a problem with it then you try to change it..don't expect me to.....

[bluedevils_4]

when to call off the dogs is a tought question.... for instance if you are up by 30 with 5 to go in the game you can probally safely pull out your "A" team and put the subs in.

what if you are up by 30 and its only halfway through the 3rd quarter. plenty of time for a team to make a move. you put subs in against a varsity and with the three point line that thirty point lead can be 10 by the start of the 4th. if you leave your varsity in and tell them to back off the same can happen. they lose intensity. make bad pass's and so on. it happens its hard for a team to stay focused when they are up alot on a team that is not as good.

i don't think that there is a right answer. their is alot of talk about class and and whose in the wrong. but here is another way to look at it, everyone has been focusing on how the team down is not having fun and its demoralizing but what about the team that is up if you tell them not to try, thats not alot of fun for them either. nobody wants to go out thier and give 50 percent we are taught to give 100 percent not 50.

also the life lessons that are learned keep being brought up, hard work, honesty, and so forth. so do we want to teach are kids that in life when you get up, to stop moving up so that you don't beat up the smaller weaker corporations.

thier is no right or wrong answer in this topic somebody is always goning to have a better opinion then you. i just had to throw my 2 cents in like everyone else

[poweraidman]

Well, first of all if i were a coach, i wouldnt sub my players out if i was up big until the other team subed in their players, ive seen plenty of games for instance team A is leading by 35 with 3 minutes to go, team A subs there players out and team B keeps their varsity in and totally owns team's A b squad and runs the score up so it doesnt look as bad. Second, ok if your up by 30 plus, dont press the ball, maybe dont even run it as much, but that doesnt mean walk down the court and run a half court offense, if the other team doesnt wanna hussle back well then make them pay for it, but you dont have to push it down and cast up 3s and press them and just keep killing them, just play the game, maybe try something that you dont do much to work on it, but dont ever not try as hard, or just relax, play 100% the whole game no matter what the score is.

[bigpoppakdog]

I'm a little sad...I agree with all of these posts...I thought this would be a hotter topic...oh well...have to wait to debate later...

[aggiesfan]

I've been on the coaches side of this argument and think a 30 point lead is not always enough. but I'd sure like to hear an explanation from someone from Minot Ryan and their absolute slaughter of Our Redeemers. I can't imagine the MR coaching staff has an acceptable explanation for demeaning a team that badly. And because of it, I bet MR fans will be the only ones from district 12 or Region 6 hoping to see them come out on top or even close to it for that matter.

[9manfootballmom]

What was the score...did you see the game...can you give us a little insight? I am the one who started this whole thread back on the region 5 topic and seem to be the only one who feels that way. Let us know the situation. thanks

[shooter]

Sometimes you need your kids to develop that killer instinct to "kick them when they are down" and make sure to "put them away" but I don't know if embarrasing someone is the right way. If you are playing a team that is "down" that year, you don't need to beat them by 50 to prove it, but if you are playing a rival or a team that is supposed to be "good" that year and you are having a great game and blow them out, then if they sub out, then you do. If it's a state championship game, you showcase your talent, let them build the big lead, keep the big lead (and build on it) then sub in whenever the opposition does. We need to teach our kids how to be classy individuals and to remember what comes around goes around, so there is no need to embarrass anyone, but we don't need to help boost the opponents confidence by keeping it close either.

[9manfootballmom]

Sometimes you need your kids to develop that killer instinct to "kick them when they are down" and make sure to "put them away" but I don't know if embarrasing someone is the right way. If you are playing a team that is "down" that year, you don't need to beat them by 50 to prove it, but if you are playing a rival or a team that is supposed to be "good" that year and you are having a great game and blow them out, then if they sub out, then you do. If it's a state championship game, you showcase your talent, let them build the big lead, keep the big lead (and build on it) then sub in whenever the opposition does. We need to teach our kids how to be classy individuals and to remember what comes around goes around, so there is no need to embarrass anyone, but we don't need to help boost the opponents confidence by keeping it close either.

Shooter: You are the closest post to make sense to me regarding the issue of blowouts. I have been doing a lot of thinking about this and that is exactly how I feel. A team is down, not just that game but for the whole season...back off if you're ahead by 30ish. If it 's your rival and there is always a chance for a comeback or it's a tournament game, play hard and win. i listened to the Standing Rock Center/Stanton game and the Rock just about got beat. At least both sub squads were in. Sounded like it could have been risky for the Rock.

i would still like to see the score and hear hat RYan did to Our Redeemers. SOmeone let us know.

[aggiesfan]

MR 80
Our Redeemer's 17

I think what MR "did" to OR is obvious.

[ndsportsfan00]

I've been on the coaches side of this argument and think a 30 point lead is not always enough. but I'd sure like to hear an explanation from someone from Minot Ryan and their absolute slaughter of Our Redeemers. I can't imagine the MR coaching staff has an acceptable explanation for demeaning a team that badly. And because of it, I bet MR fans will be the only ones from district 12 or Region 6 hoping to see them come out on top or even close to it for that matter.

Help me understand what you are saying? Every post before yours is saying you SHOULD NOT play down to your competition. So are you saying you disagree, or just disagree with Minot Ryan outplaying ORCS? It is tournament time. Should ANY team at tournament time be told to not give 100%? I can't believe you are a coach and actually are saying this.
ORCS DID NOT SCORE at all in the third quarter. In order to not have run up the score should the coaching staff have told their players to either not shoot or intentionally miss? Would that be "fair"?
This is varsity basketball not jr high YMCA league.

[3nout]

Well said.

[9manfootballmom]

MR 80
Our Redeemer's 17

I think what MR "did" to OR is obvious.

If I didn't see the score, I probably have no idea what happened in the game. No need to get "sarcastic" with the "obvious" I just wanted the facts. thanks

[old lineman]

In the end Minot better hope God is catholic.

[ndlionsfan]

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that score. It's the opening roun of districts. You want your team playing at the top of their game and don't want them to overlook anyone. The game was 33-10 at halftime. Is that lead safe? Maybe, maybe not. Do you want your starters sitting for an entire half and then have to come back the next night and play a much tougher game? Some coaches maybe, others definitely not. They outscored OR 26-0 in the 3rd quarter. That's when the game got blown open. Now I wasn't at the game, but I'm guessing the subs for MR played the whole 4th quarter if not longer. Everyone on the bench played for MR and 9 total players scored....each of them more than 4 pts. MR's studs only scored 15 pts each....not like they poured in 45 or something. Only 4 players from OR scored. I haven't seen them play this year, but you'd think with subs in late in the game and everything, more than 4 people should score. When they played earlier in the season MR won 60-31. Basically jsut sounds like OR had a terrible game and MR played very well. Doesn't sound like running up the score to me.

[aggiesfan]

I said I agree that coaches who don't sub as soon as they're up by 20 are NOT "running up the score"...doesn't mean I'm a coach. and I was not being sarcasitc with the "obvious"...not at all...fb mom . if you took it that way you're too sensitive as is this entire post. this whole topic has been about coaches running up scores and when it's OK and when it's not. I happened to disagree with how much is too much (20 or 30 not always enough) and no, you should not have to play down to your competion but there IS a line eventually and I think this time, it might have been crossed. I'm sure the MR coaches made the best decisions they could at the time and in heat of the game but they have to be wondering what they could have done a little differently. I heard Montanna just adapted a "mercy rule' and I don't know all the details but if a team is up by so much with less than a quarter of play to go...the game is called. If anyone has better info please post it. In hindsight i'm sorry I "opened this wound" again. It is tournment time and this is the time to show what you got...Minot Ryan has obviously set the bar high for their region.

[Wombat]

There have been many posts and I don't have the time to go back and read everyone of them, but I get the idea about what this topic is all about.

I am a wrestling coach, but a coach nonetheless. I follow HS BB when I get a chance to, I usually like to go to as many tournament games as I can, but I don't think this is necessarily all a BB topic, it relates to all sports.

My opinion on this is that it's not right to play down to an opponents level on purpose. As a coach I coach my kids to do their best everytime they compete. This is what I tell them whether they are ranked high in state taking on a scrub or vice versa!

I am sick of all the "It's OK little jonny, maybe we can get you a participation ribbon just for trying." I've said it before and I'll say it a hundred times more, I'm sick of all this WUSSY-ness that kids are displaying and that parents are letting them display these days! What ever happened to a kid busting his butt to be as good as he can be, putting in extra practices, extra summer camps, extra running and weight sessions to get better, elevate his game, and be the best he can be? there are less and less kids who are doing that now and it's sad! But I can't blame them because society (parents, coaches, etc...) are letting them! What good does it do a kid to baby him until he's 18-20 yrs old and let them do what they want and get away with anything they want? Then that kid has a nervous breakdown the first time they don't get accepted to their college of choice or get that dream job they applied for... they can't deal with it because they've never had to deal with a let down before! it's sad! it's kind of pathetic too.

So I guess what I"m saying is that I"m sick of all the T-ball ways of life where it doesn't matter how good you are or how bad you are because in the end, it's a tie!... That's ok in kindergarten, but on the varsity level, it's time to grow up, accept a little responsibility, take some pride in what you're doing, and EARN IT.

[ndfan]

There have been many posts and I don't have the time to go back and read everyone of them, but I get the idea about what this topic is all about.

I am a wrestling coach, but a coach nonetheless. I follow HS BB when I get a chance to, I usually like to go to as many tournament games as I can, but I don't think this is necessarily all a BB topic, it relates to all sports.

My opinion on this is that it's not right to play down to an opponents level on purpose. As a coach I coach my kids to do their best everytime they compete. This is what I tell them whether they are ranked high in state taking on a scrub or vice versa!

I am sick of all the "It's OK little jonny, maybe we can get you a participation ribbon just for trying." I've said it before and I'll say it a hundred times more, I'm sick of all this WUSSY-ness that kids are displaying and that parents are letting them display these days! What ever happened to a kid busting his butt to be as good as he can be, putting in extra practices, extra summer camps, extra running and weight sessions to get better, elevate his game, and be the best he can be? there are less and less kids who are doing that now and it's sad! But I can't blame them because society (parents, coaches, etc...) are letting them! What good does it do a kid to baby him until he's 18-20 yrs old and let them do what they want and get away with anything they want? Then that kid has a nervous breakdown the first time they don't get accepted to their college of choice or get that dream job they applied for... they can't deal with it because they've never had to deal with a let down before! it's sad! it's kind of pathetic too.

So I guess what I"m saying is that I"m sick of all the T-ball ways of life where it doesn't matter how good you are or how bad you are because in the end, it's a tie!... That's ok in kindergarten, but on the varsity level, it's time to grow up, accept a little responsibility, take some pride in what you're doing, and EARN IT.

Agreed Mitch

[shooter]

I agree completely with Wombat. Our kids have no idea what failure means because we don't allow them to fail anymore. Failure is a part of life, and everyone needs to fail to be able to succeed. If you get your butt kicked enough, you'll get sick of it and start to kick some butt or else learn to deal with it. That's a personal choice we need to make and teach our kids to step up and make. If you are sick of losing, do something about it. I still don't think we need to embarrass people because everyone has ups and downs, but just make sure you take care of your business when the time comes!

[HometownHigh]

I disagree - I think kids are exposed to plenty of disappointment.
I would say I don't think this generation wants to work as hard as others before them, they want instant gratification, maybe aren't putting the time in, and therefore, disappointment follows. Reflective in the small number of athletes in programs, unless you have a co-op and can pull some from 2-3-4 towns, and represent well.
Running up the score - well, what about this? First round of Districts, the 1st team playing the 8th seed. Play your starters for a quarter or two, and then how about some floor time for your bench, so that when you get into foul trouble later in the tournament, the playing floor is not virgin territory to all but 5 of your your men (or ladies)? Might be beneficial for all!

[Wombat]

I disagree - I think kids are exposed to plenty of disappointment.
I would say I don't think this generation wants to work as hard as others before them, they want instant gratification, maybe aren't putting the time in, and therefore, disappointment follows. Reflective in the small number of athletes in programs, unless you have a co-op and can pull some from 2-3-4 towns, and represent well.
Running up the score - well, what about this? First round of Districts, the 1st team playing the 8th seed. Play your starters for a quarter or two, and then how about some floor time for your bench, so that when you get into foul trouble later in the tournament, the playing floor is not virgin territory to all but 5 of your your men (or ladies)? Might be beneficial for all!

1)- I do see some kids being exposed to disappointment. Mostly kids who bust their butts who are disappointed with their teammates who look for that instant gratification.

2)- They want instant gratification, they don't put in the time, and get disappointed... TEACH THESE KIDS WHAT WORK ETHIC IS!!! Don't just let your kids COAST... PUSH THEM!!! Don't let them just go through the motions, get thumped, and then quit and everything is ok!

3)- Less kids on teams... Yes, ND's small towns are getting smaller, but the % of Participants is getting smaller too... AGAIN!, PUSH YOUR KIDS!!! Teach them about life's lessons through sports! A lot can be gained from this, and again DON"T JUST LET YOUR KIDS TRY A LITTLE BIT AND QUIT! PUSH THEM TO GIVE THEIR BEST EFFORTS AND ONLY GOOD THINGS WILL COME OF IT... even if those good things are in the form of disappointing life lessons that make your kids stronger PEOPLE and build up their character!!!

4)- About keeping your starters in... there is a time in a game when you can take the studs out, but at the same time, why not play them the whole game, later on in the tournament there's a good chance that a game may go down to the wire and they need that conditioning late in the saeason to stay focused. Come tournament time teams are playing a lot of games in a short number of days, there's not a whole lot of time for practices or conditioning so the games themselves have to serve as conditioning as well.