3 class system-gaining momentum

[bigpoppakdog]

the first attempt of passing the 3 class system now that it is a NDHSAA item was a closer vote than the past...will having 3 classes lower quality of basketball or equal playing field and thus having more competitive games? I propose this idea for response...have a 3 class system for tournaments, but allow teams to schedule games against whomever they want...this way you could still have a small town schools who have a strong team play the larger schools...and when it comes to tournament time then the larger schools...especially the ones located in large cities....play other schools in the same boat....I don't see the problem with having a format like this for tournaments..

Class AA
Bismarck(high, century)-Mandan-Minot high-Fargo(all of them)-Grand Forks-Dickinson high, Williston, Jamestown

Class A
Trinity, St.Mary's, Shiloh, Fargo Oak, Our redeemers, Williston Trinity Christian, Minot Ryan, Devils Lake

Class B
Everyone else....would return some of the lusture to class b that has been lost the last decade...

Now the amount of games for Class A tournament time would be less for tournaments...that is a downfall..and it would be the same every year-basically like Class A already is....so I don't see why that wouldn't work....and keep in mind I believe allowing teams to schedule who they want would allow for less travel and to be able to play a better schedule.....there are some teams right now that cannot compete on the class A level...but if you move them down to class b...will most likely dominate in that area due to a higher amount of athletes in the pool....i don't think I am off base by my plan, but I'm interested to hear other viewpoints...

[scruffy]

Officials from the NDHSAA has said the three class system in North Dakota is now DEAD. They will now concentrate on redistricting teams and tweeking the states regions....

[bigpoppakdog]

Does that mean that they will never discuss or vote on it again?

[scruffy]

At least two years before it will discussed and who knows how long before any action would be taken (I'm guessing at least 5). By then with all of the co-ops and future closings there won't be enough schools remaining to make three classes viable in this state.

[baseball]

If there was going to be a change i would recommend moving some large school B teams up to Class A and make it be 4 regions instead of 2 with the 1st and 2nd seeds from each region making state.

[scruffy]

....or make any team that uses more then three letters in the alphabet to name their co-op go class "A". It's ridiculous when you see some of these schools with three, four or more letters to say where they're from.

[Dr. Sports]

You're right it would be nice to have a 3 Class system because teams like Valley City(336), Belcourt(615), and St.Mary's(305) have trouble competing against teams like Bismarck High(1700) 10-12, Minot(2000+)9-12, and Fargo South(2000+)9-12 who all make it to state almost every year and clog smaller teams from having a chance for a state birth. Valley City has not caused much of ruckus outside of Jeff Boushie and Tyrone Terry. St.Mary's has been to the state tournament I believe only 3 times since 1985. Belcourt has not gone to the state tournament since 97 and won't be going any time soon with a current record of 1-11. What is worse the smaller teams are not growing in enrollment and the bigger schools are. I am in full support of the 3 Class system but I know students and supporters of larger schools will not support the new system due to the dependance of smaller schools for easy scheduling.

[Dr. Sports]

The reason teams are having such large co-ops is because their having trouble competing against schools such as Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, and Fargo Oak Grove for example. These schools would be in the middle of the 3 class system. As for a 4 region Class A it wouldn't work because that defeats the purpose of saving teams like St.Mary's, Belcourt, and Valley City from large schools like Minot, Bismarck, and Fargo South. Beulah, Hazen, and Rugby wouldn't survive at the next level. Beulah's program was relieved that it was able to step back down to Class B a few years ago. Bottom line only a three class system would be the answer.

[Dr. Sports]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

[ClassBEast]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

Bad idea. I know you didn't mention Central Cass in Class A, but with our enrollment (approx. 250 in 9 - 12) that is where we'd be. Just because the majority of the Class B schools would get to stay in Class B, doesn't mean that those you'd put in the awkward middle class would be happy. Don't forget about us. We like Class B, and by no means do we dominate in sports year after year. Leave well enough alone and stick with the two classes. If Valley City wants to move down, let them. They'd have trouble in Class B too.

[xcolt90]

I wonder how many current co-ops would undo their organization if a three class system would be coming? I would imagine that at least a few of the states co-ops exist so that they can be competitive.

I think a three class system is inevitable. North Dakota doesn't like change so it will take a while but the bottom line is that there is a huge difference in the enrollments of these towns, whether it be from Valley City (350ish) to Minot (2000) or schools with under 50 going against schools with over 200. In my mind the average school enrollment in the class B tournament over the past 7 years has been very close to 200 and not nearly the sub-100 school teams, so is the Class B really what it was? I don't think so.

[Stromer]

xcolt 90 is right on the 3 class system being inevitable. I was for the vote yesterday only because I don't think people have thought this out enough. There are 2 issues here: the enrollment gap between the top and bottom of class A and the gap between the top and bottom of class B. Using numbers from the NDHSAA site (I do not know when this was figured but it should give a ballpark figure), Fargo South has over 1,500 kids while Valley City has around 370. Can anyone tell me this is fair? South should have almost 4 times the athletes that VC has. I realize this is more of an issue in a sport like football where you need more players, but it is still an issue. In class B, Bottineau has around 280 while Maddock has around 70. Again, 4 times larger. The fact of the matter is that the cities in ND are growing larger, the small towns are shrinking, and the medium towns are holding serve of slightly declining. It poses more of a problem now then in the past.

The shcools could have 3 classes. It would make complete logical sense. The problem lies in state tournaments. If we went to 3 classes, when would the new class be held? And would it be combined? We would have tourneys taking up 4 weeks and may almost get into April. And a combined site means only Bismarck, GF, or Fargo can host 2 of the tourneys and GF isn't a basetball town. Plus TV coverage might be reduced.

The best way would be if volleyball would move back into the winter and girls BBall in the fall. You could have 6 weekends worth of games and it would not affect anything. I doubt we will see volleyball move, however, and without it, I don't see how a 3 system plan can work. However, it is inevitable so we should start thinking now instead of when it is D-Day.

[Claz B Fan]

Money Money Money... This would cause travel expenses to be off the charts for many schools especially with gasoline prices only rising with the price of crude oil always going up

[Dr. Sports]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

Bad idea. I know you didn't mention Central Cass in Class A, but with our enrollment (approx. 250 in 9 - 12) that is where we'd be. Just because the majority of the Class B schools would get to stay in Class B, doesn't mean that those you'd put in the awkward middle class would be happy. Don't forget about us. We like Class B, and by no means do we dominate in sports year after year. Leave well enough alone and stick with the two classes. If Valley City wants to move down, let them. They'd have trouble in Class B too.

Central Cass was my next guess but I said it was an Example only besides Central Cass would have a better chance of making it to state vs. 15 other schools than vs. 130.

[luvmy3gbb1wr]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

Bad idea. I know you didn't mention Central Cass in Class A, but with our enrollment (approx. 250 in 9 - 12) that is where we'd be. Just because the majority of the Class B schools would get to stay in Class B, doesn't mean that those you'd put in the awkward middle class would be happy. Don't forget about us. We like Class B, and by no means do we dominate in sports year after year. Leave well enough alone and stick with the two classes. If Valley City wants to move down, let them. They'd have trouble in Class B too.

Central Cass was my next guess but I said it was an Example only besides Central Cass would have a better chance of making it to state vs. 15 other schools than vs. 130.

don't forget Kindred, they're growing as well, sitting right outside Fargo, they're a suggestion and they play in the upper football B too.

[ClassBEast]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

Bad idea. I know you didn't mention Central Cass in Class A, but with our enrollment (approx. 250 in 9 - 12) that is where we'd be. Just because the majority of the Class B schools would get to stay in Class B, doesn't mean that those you'd put in the awkward middle class would be happy. Don't forget about us. We like Class B, and by no means do we dominate in sports year after year. Leave well enough alone and stick with the two classes. If Valley City wants to move down, let them. They'd have trouble in Class B too.

Central Cass was my next guess but I said it was an Example only besides Central Cass would have a better chance of making it to state vs. 15 other schools than vs. 130.

Right, but what fun would that be? So you have a 50-50 chance of making it to state every year. That's not very challenging. Plus, we don't want to travel to Grafton, Rugby and Devils Lake for a conference game. Rivalries are best against towns that are close by, no matter what the size difference is.

[toughregion2]

Let it gain all it wants its not going to happen

The board announced its a dead issue

maybe in 10 years but it wont happen anytime soon THANK GOD

[poweraidman]

Put it this way, by the time it could even happen, so many schools will be combined that it wouldnt even matter if their was 3 classes...so its never going to happen

[Deuce]

I'm not necessarily in favor of a 3 class system but I can see some of the smaller schools point of view.
To illustrate in class b terms the enrollment disparity between the largest and smallest schools in class A, Fargo South and Shanley.

It would be like coop of : (1773)
BOTTINEAU HIGH SCHOOL
GRAFTON HIGH SCHOOL
BEULAH HIGH SCHOOL
CENTRAL CASS HIGH SCHOOL
HAZEN HIGH SCHOOL
CARRINGTON HIGH SCHOOL
LISBON HIGH SCHOOL

playing
MEDINA HIGH SCHOOL (53)

I based this on ndhsaa enrollemnt a 9 - 12 difference of 1728.
FARGO SOUTH HIGH SCHOOL ENROLL. (10-12) 1525 508.33 avg
SHANLEY HIGH SCHOOL ENROLL. (9-12) 304 76.00 avg

[toughregion2]

HOW MANY DID PARSHALL HAVE WHEN THEY WON THE STATE B LAST YEAR

I REST MY CASE

[Deuce]

HOW MANY DID PARSHALL HAVE WHEN THEY WON THE STATE B LAST YEAR

I REST MY CASE

Did they play BHS or Fargo South or some other school that has 1500+ more kids than they do? No Parshall (72) played Trinity (173). I was just pointing out that if you cooped the above schools, parshall probably doesn't win and neither will any of the small class A schools any time soon.

[scruffy]

Regardless of class, the smaller schools in each one will struggle. It's worse in "A" because the smaller schools are 8-10 times smaller then the large ones. In class "B", they might only be three times smaller......Doesn't matter!! The three class system is DEAD!!

[baseball]

didnt i read somewhere that Fargo is building a new high school? wouldnt that take students away from Fargo South? and how do you compare that coop of all them B teams to playing Medina? if your going to do that atleast come close to the right numbers. 1525 vs 304, not 1773 vs 53.

[Deuce]

didnt i read somewhere that Fargo is building a new high school? wouldnt that take students away from Fargo South? and how do you compare that coop of all them B teams to playing Medina? if your going to do that atleast come close to the right numbers. 1525 vs 304, not 1773 vs 53.

Sorry I should have made it more clear. I converted South's enrollment to 9 - 12 since everyone else reports 9 - 12.

South's 1525 is 10 - 12. Shanley 304 is 9 - 12. So if you take Souths avg class of 508.33 and average that to 9 - 12 then they'd have 2032 in 9 - 12. So 2032 - 304 is 1728 and 1773-53 is 1720. So there are roughly just as many more students going to the schools in that coop than in Medina as there are in FS over Shanley.

[jtdc492]

Quick example of teams in 3 Class system, remember EXAMPLE I don't want weird replies.

Class AA West-Williston,Dickinson,Bismarck High,Century,Mandan,Minot. East-Fargo South,North,West Fargo,Grand Forks RR, Central, Jamestown. A total of 12 teams.

Class A West- Beulah,Belcourt, Bottineau, Hazen, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, New Town, and St.Mary's. East-Fargo Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Devils Lake, Fargo Oak Grove,Rugby, Grafton, and MPCG( I think they'd be in there) A total of 16 teams.

Class B Every one else( Class A just sponged up the 10 biggest teams and for the most part, the most powerful. The above teams usually represent at least 2 or 3 teams at state each year.)

Bad idea. I know you didn't mention Central Cass in Class A, but with our enrollment (approx. 250 in 9 - 12) that is where we'd be. Just because the majority of the Class B schools would get to stay in Class B, doesn't mean that those you'd put in the awkward middle class would be happy. Don't forget about us. We like Class B, and by no means do we dominate in sports year after year. Leave well enough alone and stick with the two classes. If Valley City wants to move down, let them. They'd have trouble in Class B too.

People that want a three class system think that it will make everything more balanced and competitive, right? This is just more political correctness run amok. OOOH, Jimmy from small classb can't compete with the Hazens, Beulahs, Rugbys, or with the Shilohs, Trinitys, Bishop Ryans! Poor Jimmy!

Guess what people, hard work and a winning attitude build programs, no matter what the enrollment. Are any of the schools mentioned above a lock to go to state?, No. Are some of the smaller class B schools competitve with the bigger schools?, Yes. What happens in a 3 class system? The cream will rise to the top and you'll have perennial powerhouse Valley City, or St Mary's, or Shanley. Then what? A call for a four class system? 3 on 3?

All a 3 class system does is give some instant gratification to people who think A.-their team should go to state every other year or B.-to keep "good" programs from dominating. What happens to the mystique of David and Goliath? Where's the romance and excitement of an Epping vs. Hillsboro? What will it mean for teams to go to state class C? Everything is just a little more watered down and a liitle less meaningful. No, your team may not go to the state class B,ever, but what if it did? What if for one moment those kids that nobody thought ever had a chance to run with the big boys made it?

Those moments of exhileration are what lift humanity up to levels we seldom reach, and to cheapen it for the sake of "more fair" competition is all that is wrong in this country now. A country where everybody gets a particpation ribbon and the champion is lessened. A country where competition is discouraged and mediocrity is the norm. I grew up in state that held to higher ideals than the coastal wackos, and hope to raise my kids with those ideals. They may never get to go to "the show" in a 2 class system, but with a little hard work and perseverance who knows? And if it does happen it will actually mean something!!