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Ask a ref
Posted:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:00 amby BISONFAN18
I do officiate basketball, although I have taken a break from serious commitments due to other obligations. I was a certified official for about a decade. The discussions about "flopping" and charge calls in the Class B Tournament thread led me to think about all the misconceptions about basketball rules. Social media during basketball season is an interesting place to see the frustration about perceived bad officiating. To be honest, sometimes it is justified. Officials are not perfect, and some apply the common misconceptions/misinterpretations of rules. Anyway, I thought it would be good to create a thread to explore some of this. Let it rip.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:35 amby BISONFAN18
d_fense wrote:BISONFAN18 wrote:packers21 wrote:justplayalready wrote:
Can either of you, without using google, give a very basic explanation of the rules relating to legal guarding position, incidental contact, and player control fouls?
I'll tackle this one.
Legal guarding position. I like to think of it as being in an athletic stance. (Good posture, not leaning, feet can't be to far apart). You can definitely be moving.
Incidental contact. Contact that does not create an advantage is allowed. This is were judgement totally come into play. You asked to not go into definitions, so I will not. But, incidental isn't a good word to use. Contact whether intention or not is a foul if it creates and advantage. If I am bumping player A when he is bring the ball up the court and it doesn't affect him, it isn't a foul. If I give the same contact to player B when he is bring the ball up the court and it is clearly creating an advantage for me, it should be a foul. That is where judgement come into play.
Player control fouls Ok, I get mad when people say things that just are not true. So I must state that I am not 100% on this one. My understanding is, a player control fouls is when the offensive player (who has the ball) commits' a foul, such as charging. When this happens a personal foul is counted against him, but regardless of the number of team fouls, no free throws are awarded, only possession of the ball. I want to say that I have seen player control fouls called against offensive players who have not had possession of the ball though. An example would be a push away from the ball. Like I said, i am not certain on this.
I will start with this one, going into the basic principles.
To gain legal guarding position, a player must get two feet on the floor and be facing their opponent. After that, they can move left, right, oblique, or vertically. They can maintain legal guarding position with one foot on the floor or not be facing their opponent.
Charing is illegal contact into the torso of a defender who has gained legal guarding position.
Incidental contact is expected in Basketball. There are 10 players moving on the floor and just because there is contact, does not mean there must be a foul. Contact, even when severe, when two players are in equally favorable positions does not constitute a foul.
Can a perceived "flop" be a no call. I think so.
Block/charge calls are probably the most missed calls I see. I do think I see more calls go "block" for the wrong reasons. I still hear officials tell coaches that a player was not "set". I feel officials need to call more charges.
I am typing on my phone and it is not easy to get into depth on this. So if I didn't do a very good job at explaining the actual rules, I can give it another shot later. Have a good day. Enjoy the championship at the B.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:50 amby ndlionsfan
I’ve officiated for a number of years however have not been certified and done some HS games for quite some time. My belief is that a flop is just a good no call. Officials will hear it from the crowd and maybe the coaches, but I feel they need to swallow the whistle in those cases.
At one of my sons games this past season I was sitting behind the opposing team bench a couple rows (small gym). One kid from the other team had an obvious flop. From my viewpoint there was about a foot of space between him and the offensive kid throughout the entire action. Coach made a comment to the ref and he clearly responded the kid has to take some contact. Coach had no response as he knew it too. Felt it was a great way to handle the play.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:23 amby packers21
My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury.
There have been some interesting calls in this tournament but I think it’s been called pretty dang good. Some really questionable calls in the afternoon games on Friday.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:50 pmby BISONFAN18
packers21 wrote:My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury.
There have been some interesting calls in this tournament but I think it’s been called pretty dang good. Some really questionable calls in the afternoon games on Friday.
I don't think the situation you described is problematic. Very rarely do I see someone hit the floor due to incidental contact - and the offensive player is at any more risk than usual.
I do think the block/charge call is one of the most difficult to get right. I think officials call more blocks when they are in fact charges. I was sitting near the bench at a game very recently and when the coach ask an official about a block call, the official told the coach that his player was not set. This is unacceptable in my opinion. Maybe calling more charges cleans up the game a bit.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:22 amby d_fense
[b][quote="packers21"][[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:25 amby WalkingStick
I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:19 pmby The Schwab
WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
This is true, I saw this rule incorrectly interpreted during one of the afternoon games (I believe on Friday). There was a fast break where the offensive team was in an advantage situation and they called a charge in the restricted arc. In an advantage situation for the offense there is no primary defender, therefore, it should have been a block.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:05 pmby packers21
d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:09 pmby UncleRico
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
We are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Much of this stuff is worth discussing, but the embellishment and flopping is a disgrace to the sport, IMO. If an offensive player lowers his shoulder and delivers a blow, then it should be an offensive foul. If he extends his off arm to gain an advantage, it should be a charge. But just because a defender kinda jumps into the ballhandler's path, throws his arms/head back, and slides 15 feet backwards across the floor does not make it a charge. Same with the flop on the block. You're telling me you a similar sized kid knocked his defender flat on his back and across the lane? Come on. If the offensive player actually runs him over or clears him out, so be it, but stop rewarding the flop. The embellished flop charge needs to stop being called, or the issue will continue to get worse. And it's getting much worse. Just my .02.
At the same time, I feel for today's refs because now the kids are doing this stuff constantly. It's gotta be a pain to try to call on the fly.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:15 pmby BISONFAN18
WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
Sort of true. A secondary defender just cannot gain legal guarding position in the restricted area. They can gain it outside of it and movement can occur, taking the player within the restricted area.
There are exceptions as well.
Exceptions: When the offensive player leads with a foot or unnatural knee or wards
off with the arm OR when a player in control of the ball stops continuous movement
toward the basket then initiates illegal contact with a secondary defender in the
restricted area, this is a player-control foul.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:16 pmby BISONFAN18
The Schwab wrote:WalkingStick wrote:I think too many officials enjoy making the charge call and make it at wrong times.
Also, a reminder that most tend to forget (fans & officials); you CAN take a charge in the restricted arc but ONLY if you are the primary defender.
This is true, I saw this rule incorrectly interpreted during one of the afternoon games (I believe on Friday). There was a fast break where the offensive team was in an advantage situation and they called a charge in the restricted arc. In an advantage situation for the offense there is no primary defender, therefore, it should have been a block.
It would be great to see a clip of this play. If the secondary defender gained legal guarding position outside of the restricted area, then a charge is totally possible inside the restricted area.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:20 pmby BISONFAN18
UncleRico wrote:packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:[b]packers21 wrote:[[b]/b]My not calling the flop or the block the official is still giving the advantage to the defense and now the offensive player is in a rough spot with someone on the ground by their feet and ankles increasing the chance of Injury. [/b]
100% disagree. In no way does not calling a flop or block give the advantage to the defense. I don't see your point at all. The offensive player can still drive to the basket, shoot with no hand in his face, or pass the ball with very little chance of his defender creating any problem. Once the defender is on the ground, they are not in a legal defensive position. If the offensive player trips, 100% foul on defender since he is not in a legal position. Or pass the ball and cut to the basket. What offensive player would not like for his defender to have to start from a seated position?
I also agree with BisionFan18. There should be more charges called. I always tell my players you are not being aggressive enough until you have had 2 charges called on you in a game. That is not two on my team. It is two on every player. When the refs default is going against the defense, why wouldn't you take advantage of that?
We are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Much of this stuff is worth discussing, but the embellishment and flopping is a disgrace to the sport, IMO. If an offensive player lowers his shoulder and delivers a blow, then it should be an offensive foul. If he extends his off arm to gain an advantage, it should be a charge. But just because a defender kinda jumps into the ballhandler's path, throws his arms/head back, and slides 15 feet backwards across the floor does not make it a charge. Same with the flop on the block. You're telling me you a similar sized kid knocked his defender flat on his back and across the lane? Come on. If the offensive player actually runs him over or clears him out, so be it, but stop rewarding the flop. The embellished flop charge needs to stop being called, or the issue will continue to get worse. And it's getting much worse. Just my .02.
At the same time, I feel for today's refs because now the kids are doing this stuff constantly. It's gotta be a pain to try to call on the fly.
In my time as an official, the NFHS has issued many "points of emphasis" where they wanted to see improvements to the way the game was called. If this is really a problem, maybe a POE will be issued. As far as I know, punishing "faking being fouled" has not been a POE. Faking being fouled is a technical foul. In all of the basketball games I have witnessed, it has been assessed once.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:39 pmby UncleRico
Yeah, you might know the answer....wasn't it a POE for college a year or two ago?
Unfortunately I only think I saw it called a couple times before it went the way of the dinosaur. Kinda like the "hook and hold", called it every game for 3 months then forgot about it again.
Edit: looked it up, flopping was deemed a Class B technical by the NCAA starting with the 22-23 season.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:48 pmby WalkingStick
NSIC and MIAC games had technicals called for flopping this year but some of them were egregious and incorrectly called at horrible moments in the game
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:43 amby d_fense
When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.[/quote]
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:47 amby packers21
d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.[/quote]
Sooo hear me out, this defender has now already created contact with the offensive player resulting in a no call and now them laying on the ground by the feet and ankles of the offensive player has created no advantage of the defense?
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:56 amby leroybla
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
Sooo hear me out, this defender has now already created contact with the offensive player resulting in a no call and now them laying on the ground by the feet and ankles of the offensive player has created no advantage of the defense?[/quote]
By "flopping" the defender has relinquished his defensive position. No foul?
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:06 amby d_fense
packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
Sooo hear me out, this defender has now already created contact with the offensive player resulting in a no call and now them laying on the ground by the feet and ankles of the offensive player has created no advantage of the defense?[/quote]Did I stutter? And I would say typically it is the offensive player who created the contact as they are the ones moving toward the goal especially if the defense is trying to draw a charge call, they are likely in a good defensive position and not moving toward the offensive player.
If lying down created an advantage, don't you think we would see that strategy employed every now and again?
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:17 amby packers21
d_fense wrote:packers21 wrote:d_fense wrote:When you are are trying to take a charge, create contact with the offense fall on the ground by there feet and its a no call, you are telling me that isn't an advantage to the defense? There should almost never be a no call when these kids are flopping all over the place.
Exactly. I am saying a defender on his butt or back is not an advantage for the defense.
Sooo hear me out, this defender has now already created contact with the offensive player resulting in a no call and now them laying on the ground by the feet and ankles of the offensive player has created no advantage of the defense?
Did I stutter? And I would say typically it is the offensive player who created the contact as they are the ones moving toward the goal especially if the defense is trying to draw a charge call, they are likely in a good defensive position and not moving toward the offensive player.
If lying down created an advantage, don't you think we would see that strategy employed every now and again?[/quote]
Didn't stutter, I just thought you always had good points on here and typically agreed. Trying to take a charge and then laying on the ground in the spot where someone scoring the basketball would usually land is 100% an advantage. The official by only wanting to call a charge and not calling the flop/block gives the defensive player 2 clear advantages.
We are in fact seeing this "strategy" used all the time, this thread and conversation about charges is a direct result of the strategy.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:34 amby ndlionsfan
I don't see how a defensive player on the floor is an advantage for the defense. Like already stated, if an offensive player trips over that player on the floor it is an obvious foul as they are not in legal guarding position. If no contact is made, the offense essentially has a 5-on-4 opportunity for scoring, rebounding, etc.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:44 amby packers21
ndlionsfan wrote:I don't see how a defensive player on the floor is an advantage for the defense. Like already stated, if an offensive player trips over that player on the floor it is an obvious foul as they are not in legal guarding position. If no contact is made, the offense essentially has a 5-on-4 opportunity for scoring, rebounding, etc.
An obvious call is already not calling the flop, good luck trying to shoot normally or jump for a rebound knowing someone is on the ground below you.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:46 amby The Schwab
It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:51 amby WalkingStick
I get what packers21 was stating originally...cause now the defender is in the way sprawled out on the ground at the offensive players feet where now the offensive player has no where to go or land, safely.
I've seen it happen. Not sure that it happens often though as usually the defensive player falls away from the offensive player more times than not but could see this as an issue in some scenarios; but could understand rebounders having an issue with landing on a player on the ground.
Re: Ask a ref
Posted:
Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:17 pmby BISONFAN18
ndlionsfan wrote:I don't see how a defensive player on the floor is an advantage for the defense. Like already stated, if an offensive player trips over that player on the floor it is an obvious foul as they are not in legal guarding position. If no contact is made, the offense essentially has a 5-on-4 opportunity for scoring, rebounding, etc.
I think this sums it up very well.