Ask a ref

[BISONFAN18]

It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.

There was a block/charge POE issued leading up to the 2020-2021 season. All it did was reinforce the existing principles of legal guarding position. No where did it say to "call something". I seriously doubt that the NFHS would say that you MUST call a block or charge. This would totally violate the principles of "incidental contact". The rule book clearly states that just because there is contact, it does not constitute a foul.

I think the POE on this was issued because officials were calling too many blocks. Just my opinion. This is based on the lack of understanding regarding the principles of legal guarding position. Too many officials still think a player must be "set" to take a charge.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -poes.html

[packers21]

It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.

There was a block/charge POE issued leading up to the 2020-2021 season. All it did was reinforce the existing principles of legal guarding position. No where did it say to "call something". I seriously doubt that the NFHS would say that you MUST call a block or charge. This would totally violate the principles of "incidental contact". The rule book clearly states that just because there is contact, it does not constitute a foul.

I think the POE on this was issued because officials were calling too many blocks. Just my opinion. This is based on the lack of understanding regarding the principles of legal guarding position. Too many officials still think a player must be "set" to take a charge.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -poes.html

But is attempting to take a charge really "incidental"?

[BISONFAN18]

It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.

There was a block/charge POE issued leading up to the 2020-2021 season. All it did was reinforce the existing principles of legal guarding position. No where did it say to "call something". I seriously doubt that the NFHS would say that you MUST call a block or charge. This would totally violate the principles of "incidental contact". The rule book clearly states that just because there is contact, it does not constitute a foul.

I think the POE on this was issued because officials were calling too many blocks. Just my opinion. This is based on the lack of understanding regarding the principles of legal guarding position. Too many officials still think a player must be "set" to take a charge.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -poes.html

But is attempting to take a charge really "incidental"?

Sometimes, yes.

SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent
which is permitted and which does not constitute
a foul.
ART. 1 .. . The mere fact that contact occurs does
not constitute a foul. When 10 players are moving
rapidly in a limited area, some contact is certain
to occur
ART. 2 . .. Contact, which may result when op-
ponents are in equally favorable positions to per-
form normal defensive or offensive movements,
should not be considered illegal, even though the
contact may be severe
ART. 3... Similarly, contact which does not hin-
der the opponent from participating in normal
defensive or offensive movements should be con-
sidered incidental.
ART. 4 ... A player who is screened within his/
her visual field is expected to avoid contact with
the screener by stopping or going around the
screener. In cases of screens outside the visual
field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact
with the screener, and such contact is to be ruled
incidenta] contact, provided the screener is not
displaced if he/she has the ball.
ART. 5 ...If, however, a player approaches ar
opponent from behind or from a position from
which he/she has no reasonable chance to play
the ball without making contact with the oppo-
nent, the responsibility is on the player in the un-
favorable position

[olufsen2022]

One thing that seems to be overlooked far to often in my opinion is a carry call. I see kids at every level, boys and girls, constantly carrying the basketball. It's a huge advantage to the offense as they are able to freeze the defense with their hand under the ball and then make their move. Some kids literally carry it every dribble they make and that's why it doesn't get called. It's an illegal basketball play and shouldn't be allowed whether its the kids natural dribble or someone making a move. If it was called correctly, kids would be forced to learn how to dribble properly.

[The Schwab]

It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.

There was a block/charge POE issued leading up to the 2020-2021 season. All it did was reinforce the existing principles of legal guarding position. No where did it say to "call something". I seriously doubt that the NFHS would say that you MUST call a block or charge. This would totally violate the principles of "incidental contact". The rule book clearly states that just because there is contact, it does not constitute a foul.

I think the POE on this was issued because officials were calling too many blocks. Just my opinion. This is based on the lack of understanding regarding the principles of legal guarding position. Too many officials still think a player must be "set" to take a charge.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -poes.html

There was a POE placed on plays where there is a collision. I don't remember the exact year but it was around 2010.

[BISONFAN18]

It was a POE a few years ago (Might be closer to 10 years now) that a collision in a block/charge situation should NOT be a no call. There should be something called. This is a part of the game that can be cleaned up very easily by starting to hand out technicals for flopping/embellishing. I understand what packers is saying about it being an advantage for the defense. My take on what he means is if a player is lying on the ground underneath the basket the offensive player will more than likely alter their shot/move/footwork before attempting a shot. Most HS kids are not going to go up for a natural shot and land on a player which could be seen as an advantage for the defense.

There was a block/charge POE issued leading up to the 2020-2021 season. All it did was reinforce the existing principles of legal guarding position. No where did it say to "call something". I seriously doubt that the NFHS would say that you MUST call a block or charge. This would totally violate the principles of "incidental contact". The rule book clearly states that just because there is contact, it does not constitute a foul.

I think the POE on this was issued because officials were calling too many blocks. Just my opinion. This is based on the lack of understanding regarding the principles of legal guarding position. Too many officials still think a player must be "set" to take a charge.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -poes.html

There was a POE placed on plays where there is a collision. I don't remember the exact year but it was around 2010.

This is from the 2018-2019 POE. The 3rd bullet down "Many times, a no call is not appropriate as a determination must be made." I agree with this. Many times, there is a clear foul, and the NFHS wants officials to get it right. But, incidental contact or "no-call" is sometimes appropriate. Sometimes vs. many times. Nothing is absolute.

I remember this time pretty well. Officials were probably more worried about making sure uniforms were legal, instead of focusing on the principles of legal guarding position and making sure block/charge calls were right.

https://forum.officiating.com/basketbal ... -19-a.html

LEGAL GUARDING POSITION, BLOCK/CHARGE, SCREENING, VERTICALITY

For 2018-19, the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee feels it imperative to remind coaches, officials and players about the restrictions in specific contact situations. Fundamental to each of these is the establishment of a legal guarding position with these reminders: Rule 4-23 defines guarding position.
•Once established, the defense can adjust to absorb contact or react to play while maintaining that position.
•Once established and maintained legally, block/charge must be ruled when occurring.
•Many times, a no call is not appropriate as a determination must be made.
•A defender does NOT have to remain stationary for a player control foul to occur. After obtaining a legal position, a defender may move laterally, even, diagonally to maintain position but may NOT move toward an opponent.
•Blocking is illegal personal contact with impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.
•Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.
•There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in her path.
•If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the conduct.
•A player with the ball is to expect no leniency regarding space.
•A player without the ball is to be given distance to find and avoid the defender (two strides by rule).
•A player must be in-bounds to have a legal guarding position.
•If an opponent is airborne (whether or not he/she has the ball), legal guarding position must be obtained before the opponent left the floor.

Diligence and constant review of game video and the rules code will help officials be consistent in the application of these rules.

[BISONFAN18]

One thing that seems to be overlooked far to often in my opinion is a carry call. I see kids at every level, boys and girls, constantly carrying the basketball. It's a huge advantage to the offense as they are able to freeze the defense with their hand under the ball and then make their move. Some kids literally carry it every dribble they make and that's why it doesn't get called. It's an illegal basketball play and shouldn't be allowed whether its the kids natural dribble or someone making a move. If it was called correctly, kids would be forced to learn how to dribble properly.

I think location might have an impact on this. I don't see a lot of missed carrying violations. I will say that I hear people yelling for a carry call when there is a "high dribble" or a kids hand is behind the ball.

The locality matters. I see certain things get more attention by location. I think part of it is how the networking of officials work. "When in Rome"....

[The Schwab]

BisonFan18...I agree with you that not every block charge situation has to be a foul, sometimes it is just a play on (when no illegal contact is made to gain an advantage). What I am referencing is when there is a collision where there are people hitting the floor. When players end up on the floor there is obviously an advantaged gained. In this situation there has to be something illegal happening whether it is:
1. A charge, where the opponent was in legal guarding position and the offensive player is responsible for the contact.
2. A block, where the opponent was not in legal guarding position (be it due to location or not establishing that position before the contact), therefore the defender is responsible for the contact
3. A flop, which I think we see far more often than we used to, where the defender or offensive player embellishes the contact drastically, in which IMO an unsporting tech should be called.

[UncleRico]

3. A flop, which I think we see far more often than we used to, where the defender or offensive player embellishes the contact drastically, in which IMO an unsporting tech should be called.

100%, please stop rewarding this garbage. Same goes for shooters falling down and kicking their legs out.

[maddog1971]

It seems that Big Guys in this state get no love. In the state tournament the big from Des Lacs got hammer and pushed all game and no fouls called. The one time he made the circus shot while falling down... Replay showed he got him in the head twice before he shot the ball... No Call.
Why are the Big guys not getting the love? Little 5'4 guard comes flying in and jumps right into the big kid and it is a foul on the big kid. why? His arms came down.... well ya... He took a running shoulder to his stomach... of course his arms are gonna come down some.

[ndlionsfan]

It seems that Big Guys in this state get no love. In the state tournament the big from Des Lacs got hammer and pushed all game and no fouls called. The one time he made the circus shot while falling down... Replay showed he got him in the head twice before he shot the ball... No Call.
Why are the Big guys not getting the love? Little 5'4 guard comes flying in and jumps right into the big kid and it is a foul on the big kid. why? His arms came down.... well ya... He took a running shoulder to his stomach... of course his arms are gonna come down some.

This made me chuckle, but it is 100% true.

[BISONFAN18]

BisonFan18...I agree with you that not every block charge situation has to be a foul, sometimes it is just a play on (when no illegal contact is made to gain an advantage). What I am referencing is when there is a collision where there are people hitting the floor. When players end up on the floor there is obviously an advantaged gained. In this situation there has to be something illegal happening whether it is:
1. A charge, where the opponent was in legal guarding position and the offensive player is responsible for the contact.
2. A block, where the opponent was not in legal guarding position (be it due to location or not establishing that position before the contact), therefore the defender is responsible for the contact
3. A flop, which I think we see far more often than we used to, where the defender or offensive player embellishes the contact drastically, in which IMO an unsporting tech should be called.

The bold portion of your comment is not a good mindset to have when looking at a play. Incidental contact can be severe. Just because there is contact, and someone is on the floor, does not mean there absolutely has to be a foul.

[BISONFAN18]

It seems that Big Guys in this state get no love. In the state tournament the big from Des Lacs got hammer and pushed all game and no fouls called. The one time he made the circus shot while falling down... Replay showed he got him in the head twice before he shot the ball... No Call.
Why are the Big guys not getting the love? Little 5'4 guard comes flying in and jumps right into the big kid and it is a foul on the big kid. why? His arms came down.... well ya... He took a running shoulder to his stomach... of course his arms are gonna come down some.

I agree with you somewhat. I think this disparity between post play officiating and perimeter play officiating is a bigger problem than the perceived "flopping" issue.

In the DLB vs CC semi-final game, I felt that DLB was actually the better basketball team until rough play started to create an advantage for CC. There was a lot of subtle pushing and body contact that was not legal contact, and not called a foul. It was enough to detour DLB, but subtle enough for the officials to let it slide.

It was the same story in the championship game. With 3:25 left in the 4th quarter, CC had 6 team fouls and Shilo had 10. I though this should have been flipped. I thought there were calls on Shilo that should have been no calls, and some rough perimeter play by CC that should have been fouls.

[The Schwab]

BisonFan18...I agree with you that not every block charge situation has to be a foul, sometimes it is just a play on (when no illegal contact is made to gain an advantage). What I am referencing is when there is a collision where there are people hitting the floor. When players end up on the floor there is obviously an advantaged gained. In this situation there has to be something illegal happening whether it is:
1. A charge, where the opponent was in legal guarding position and the offensive player is responsible for the contact.
2. A block, where the opponent was not in legal guarding position (be it due to location or not establishing that position before the contact), therefore the defender is responsible for the contact
3. A flop, which I think we see far more often than we used to, where the defender or offensive player embellishes the contact drastically, in which IMO an unsporting tech should be called.

The bold portion of your comment is not a good mindset to have when looking at a play. Incidental contact can be severe. Just because there is contact, and someone is on the floor, does not mean there absolutely has to be a foul.

My goodness. My comment on players ending up on the floor is in a collision situation, not anytime a player ends up on the floor. If I player A is driving into the lane and player B is trying to take a charge (not jumping straight up in the restricted area) and one or both of the players hits the floor, there has been an advantage gained and illegal contact has occurred by the shear definitions of charging and blocking. One of the 3 examples I gave has to have happened.

[BISONFAN18]

BisonFan18...I agree with you that not every block charge situation has to be a foul, sometimes it is just a play on (when no illegal contact is made to gain an advantage). What I am referencing is when there is a collision where there are people hitting the floor. When players end up on the floor there is obviously an advantaged gained. In this situation there has to be something illegal happening whether it is:
1. A charge, where the opponent was in legal guarding position and the offensive player is responsible for the contact.
2. A block, where the opponent was not in legal guarding position (be it due to location or not establishing that position before the contact), therefore the defender is responsible for the contact
3. A flop, which I think we see far more often than we used to, where the defender or offensive player embellishes the contact drastically, in which IMO an unsporting tech should be called.

The bold portion of your comment is not a good mindset to have when looking at a play. Incidental contact can be severe. Just because there is contact, and someone is on the floor, does not mean there absolutely has to be a foul.

My goodness. My comment on players ending up on the floor is in a collision situation, not anytime a player ends up on the floor. If I player A is driving into the lane and player B is trying to take a charge (not jumping straight up in the restricted area) and one or both of the players hits the floor, there has been an advantage gained and illegal contact has occurred by the shear definitions of charging and blocking. One of the 3 examples I gave has to have happened.

Many times, this is called a block or charge. "Many times" is the language NFHS uses to reinforce officiating the block/charge scenario. When it is not obvious, I would rather pass on a call that I am not sure about than give a kid a foul. Some great advice I received from a mentor was "if you have to guess, don't put air in the whistle".

Officials are not perfect. Sometimes fouls are missed.

[The Schwab]

Officials have to make judgement calls all of the time, it's part of the job. I truly hope that officials make more calls than just the obvious ones.

[BISONFAN18]

Officials have to make judgement calls all of the time, it's part of the job. I truly hope that officials make more calls than just the obvious ones.

I can assure you a majority of fans and coaches struggle with rules more than certified officials do. Passing on a 50/50 foul call is much better practice than guessing. Coaches and ADs don't remember the "no call" as often as they remember the call that was wrong.

[The Schwab]

Officials have to make judgement calls all of the time, it's part of the job. I truly hope that officials make more calls than just the obvious ones.

I can assure you a majority of fans and coaches struggle with rules more than certified officials do. Passing on a 50/50 foul call is much better practice than guessing. Coaches and ADs don't remember the "no call" as often as they remember the call that was wrong.

In my experience being certified doesn't determine the talent or knowledge of an official. If a referee is making a call based on how the coach/AD will remember the call I sure hope they are not asked to ref an advancing tournament game.

[BISONFAN18]

Officials have to make judgement calls all of the time, it's part of the job. I truly hope that officials make more calls than just the obvious ones.

I can assure you a majority of fans and coaches struggle with rules more than certified officials do. Passing on a 50/50 foul call is much better practice than guessing. Coaches and ADs don't remember the "no call" as often as they remember the call that was wrong.

In my experience being certified doesn't determine the talent or knowledge of an official. If a referee is making a call based on how the coach/AD will remember the call I sure hope they are not asked to ref an advancing tournament game.

Ha. I won't argue about your bold statement - it is true but they are still much better than fans and coaches . But the point is that getting a call wrong because I had to guess is much worse than a no call. Period.

[3sportfan]

The biggest complaint I have is not whether it was a foul or not because the official obviously has a better view than we do from the stands, it is the official that calls the foul that is out of position. The play can happen in the baseline left hand side and the official in the complete opposite position calls the foul and neither official on the play side blew their whistle, maybe that’s a poor explanation, but sometimes I feel the calling official is blocked by the players and could not have actually seen the reach or grab/push. And some guys just like to wear out a whistle, interesting to know sometimes which of the 3 makes the most calls in a night

[BISONFAN18]

The biggest complaint I have is not whether it was a foul or not because the official obviously has a better view than we do from the stands, it is the official that calls the foul that is out of position. The play can happen in the baseline left hand side and the official in the complete opposite position calls the foul and neither official on the play side blew their whistle, maybe that’s a poor explanation, but sometimes I feel the calling official is blocked by the players and could not have actually seen the reach or grab/push. And some guys just like to wear out a whistle, interesting to know sometimes which of the 3 makes the most calls in a night

Sorry, I didn't see this post, nor to I see a question, but I think some discussion can come about this. I agree that there are times an official has no business looking at action outside of their primary area of responsibility, but an can "reach" into an area that is not their primary area of responsibility to make a call. Generally, if they can see it, they can call it. But, the likelihood of getting the call wrong goes way up when an official has to "reach".

I have been in the situation where I was the trail official on the ball side of the floor when the center official, opposite side of the floor, called a foul where the lead official and myself had a clear look at the play and it was 100% clean. I was not happy about it and we did discuss it after the game. These things happen rarely in my experience.