Class B's Identity Problem

[heimer]

After the first half of the semi-finals last night, the 24 remaining teams included the following:

Oak Grove
Kindred
Central Cass
Hillsboro-Central Valley
Grafton
Linton-H-M-B
Four Winds-Minnewaukan
Langdon Area-Edmore-Munich
Shiloh Christian
Bottineau
Rugby
Minot Ryan
Dickinson Trinity
Beulah

That's 14 of 24 that are either large, mega-co-ops, or parochials.

I've said before, and I'll say again, this matters.

And I'll be shouted down again by the likes of Bisonguy06 and the other myth-clingers, saying all that matters is the final 8 teams in Minot on TV. The rest of this doesn't matter.

I'm not here to tell you what needs to be done. We all have our own opinions. I am here to talk about an identity problem for Class B basketball.

This is not what Class B is supposed to look like. I think we all know it, there are just some of us that refuse to acknowledge it.

It's time to use relegation and find a middle division. It's time to stop clinging to enrollment numbers as the only standard, take into account resources, critical mass of a community, and come together on the fact that some co-ops form simply to win, some communities have kids driving several miles just to get to a gym while others have more than enough space in walking distance, and start finding some middle ground.

This is not Class B.

[justplayalready]

The solution to your problem children 25 years ago has now become the problem...My concern is that new solution has to also include the original problem, as some of those problem children are not seen as big of problem anymore...some of the new problem children are worse! Or do we just start the circle over again??

[senditin]

Take out the private schools and we'll be just fine.

[The Schwab]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

[Sportsrube]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

[ndlionsfan]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

This may be the time to make the switch, though. With no boys state B last season and if the attendance looks anything like the girls B this year, the "golden calf" is gone and may take years to recover if ever.

I feel if they went to three classes with boys/girls held at the same time/place for each division, it would require very little changes to make the tournaments run and there would be a ton of interest with each division.

[Sportsrube]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

This may be the time to make the switch, though. With no boys state B last season and if the attendance looks anything like the girls B this year, the "golden calf" is gone and may take years to recover if ever.

I feel if they went to three classes with boys/girls held at the same time/place for each division, it would require very little changes to make the tournaments run and there would be a ton of interest with each division.

I agree, but the NDHSAA will never agree. I think the two lower class tournaments would both generate a lot of interest and could potentially be "golden calfs".

[Bison-Vikes #1]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

If the powers that be and the media say there are no problems in class b sports, there are no problems. Easy peasy. /s

[justplayalready]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

This may be the time to make the switch, though. With no boys state B last season and if the attendance looks anything like the girls B this year, the "golden calf" is gone and may take years to recover if ever.

I feel if they went to three classes with boys/girls held at the same time/place for each division, it would require very little changes to make the tournaments run and there would be a ton of interest with each division.

Attendance will look like girls only due to how it's set up for covid...looks like most of the lower bowl tickets available to general public have been sold already(maybe a few hundred that were available??) No clue on if the plan is the same to put the fans of the teams playing behind the benches again, and move them out after each game???
R6 boys at least looks better than Girls B

[The Schwab]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

This may be the time to make the switch, though. With no boys state B last season and if the attendance looks anything like the girls B this year, the "golden calf" is gone and may take years to recover if ever.

I feel if they went to three classes with boys/girls held at the same time/place for each division, it would require very little changes to make the tournaments run and there would be a ton of interest with each division.

Tickets were sold on a per-game basis. They did quite well, financially, at the State B girls.

Ya, the activities association definitely took advantage of the class B fans. If you wanted to go to every game and bought a walk up ticket it would have cost you 240 to attend all 12 games. The schools were sold tickets to their 3 games only, 48 dollars for the set of 3. If you did buy the sets of all 12 tickets (they had the two middle sections available) it have cost you 100 dollars after all of the fees.

[heimer]

Covid isn't a true test for a crowd, but, with revenue being a deal, now would be the time to add some tournaments. More tournaments mean more money. Twice the regionals, twice the states.

It's the perfect time to act.

[justplayalready]

I agree 100 percent with Heimer, class B boys basketball is broken.

I agree 100% also. But it would take an act of God to get the NDHSAA to make any changes to Class B. They are afraid of the Privates and they are afraid of killing the "golden calf" (State Class B). If anyone mentions Class B and you think of Bismarck, Fargo, Minot or Dickinson, there is a problem.

This may be the time to make the switch, though. With no boys state B last season and if the attendance looks anything like the girls B this year, the "golden calf" is gone and may take years to recover if ever.

I feel if they went to three classes with boys/girls held at the same time/place for each division, it would require very little changes to make the tournaments run and there would be a ton of interest with each division.

Tickets were sold on a per-game basis. They did quite well, financially, at the State B girls.

Ya, the activities association definitely took advantage of the class B fans. If you wanted to go to every game and bought a walk up ticket it would have cost you 240 to attend all 12 games. The schools were sold tickets to their 3 games only, 48 dollars for the set of 3. If you did buy the sets of all 12 tickets (they had the two middle sections available) it have cost you 100 dollars after all of the fees.

I am wondering where the people were seated when their school was not playing? I can't see people there for only one game then leaving. The TV angles don't really show east sections. Were these lower bowl sections(2 & 4) used for this?? Or who was sitting there??

for boys,I see sections 6, 8 , 14 & 16(end corners) were opened for advanced sales just recently(this week)??? I would guess these would be the single game spots(Monday9 am) for those buyers??

How was the clearing between games followed?? Our district had a policy of that, that was largely ignored. Regions were as usual,

Curious as to where the school and sponsor tickets are seated when dome is running lower bowl at 1/2??

[sportsnut5]

For the State B Girls, the home team had sections 4, 5, 9, 10 and the visiting fans had 1,2,12,13.These sections were used in this manner for each game. The teams that qualified for the tourney received 277 tickets to sell to their fan base. These cost $48 and were for their teams 3 games only, they did not get you in the dome to see any other contests. They did clear the facility after every game. If you wanted to watch a game other than your own with those tickets, it was $20 per game for general admission. Sections 3 ,11,6,8,14,and 16 we for people who purchased 12 game tourney passes for roughly $100 with all fees. If you had a 12 game pass, you had to vacate the building between games for about 45 minutes.

[heimer]

Let's steer back on track to identity crisis. Ticket policy for the girls can be handled on the girls thread.

This is an attempt to distract from the issue.

[The Schwab]

Let's steer back on track to identity crisis. Ticket policy for the girls can be handled on the girls thread.

This is an attempt to distract from the issue.

How do we go about getting it fixed? Schools will not vote for it unless it benefits them. Schools in Region 3, and 5 won't vote for it. Region 8 won't vote for it anymore now that Watford City is class A.

[Bisonguy06]

Heimer, this will blow your mind.
I would support three classes. I've seen enough. We can do better than the status quo.

[heimer]

As recently as last week, you were still against in one of your postings on a different thread.

Are you yanking my chain, or did you see something that flipped this for you?

[UNDSiouxfan]

Heimer, as usual, is spot on with this post.

Here's another way to look at it (for those to say we wouldn't have a competitive tournament without the parochials, bigs, and mega co-ops)

Here's what I would argue we would like to see as a class B Tourney, rather than a Class A - Private - Class B as it currently sits.

Region 1: Enderlin
Region 2: North Border
Region 3: Ellendale
Region 4: Dunseith
Region 5: Flasher
Region 6: Velva
Region 7: Bowman
Region 8: Powers Lake or Whiteshield

I believe that hands down this would be an awesome tournament to watch. Class B at its best. Once again, every town empties out to head to either Minot or Bismarck. The way it used to be and the way it should be once again.

Take out FWM, Grafton, HCV, Rugby, Kindred, Central Cass, Beulah, LEM & all of the privates (other than Williston Trinity) and they would all be extremely competitive with Devils Lake, Valley City, Watford City, Turtle Mtn, Wahpeton, Williston. This division tourney (call it A) would also be must-watch TV. I, for one, wouldn't miss a second of either supposed tournament. This tourney would held the same weekend as the A, and if the B tourney is held in Minot then this would be in Bismarck.

Imagine the revenue dollars of having 3 divisions. Minot & Bismarck have a tournament every year, not every other year. Fargo or GF gets to hold their big city tournament on their own.

This entire argument of 3 classes began at the top with the large city schools. They've just become way too big and it's trickled down to the smaller class A's, then onto the larger class B towns, then to the small class B's.

Here's another example. Take Wahpeton. They have an excellent ball club, probably a once in every 10 year team. They're a .500 team in class A this year, but have proven to be very formidable. Even on great years they likely won't make a state tournament but they would if there was another class.

The NDHSAA simply just doesn't get it, and the time has come. Wake up from your 20 year nap.

[ndlionsfan]

Just a quick correction to your post. Dunseith has an enrollment of 200 and LEM as a co-op only 150. In a 3 class system they would be flipped even though it feels LEM is larger due to their recent sustained success.

[Bisonguy06]

As recently as last week, you were still against in one of your postings on a different thread.

Are you yanking my chain, or did you see something that flipped this for you?

That was during the girls' B. I don't see anything that screams "the system is broken" on their side of the equation.

The problems of status quo in B are more clearly visible on the boys' side, where the results are so very predictable.

There would be no need for any personal attacks or mischaracterization. I call balls and strikes as I see them. I support my positions with numbers and results. I always have.

A three class system in ND would be very competitive at the top two levels. What remains of 'B' would continue to be dominated by a small but more palatable group of schools with strong programs and tradition. The sum total would be equal to or better than what we have now, and its worth a try.

[heimer]

No attack intended. After all the years of back and forths between you and I on this issue, I legitimately couldn't tell if you might be trying to get a rise out of me or has actually formed a view other than I was familiar with.

[Bisonguy06]

I am approaching this from both angles. I hate that we have small schools that believe, correctly, that they cannot compete. I hate that we have a list of 14 schools up above, and more that could be added to it, that folks feel compelled to root against.

Linton HMB played nine man football this fall. It is preposterous to include them as “part of the problem.” Three class proponents really need to get beyond that type of thinking. Linton belongs in the bottom class. So does Thompson. They would dominate. And good for them.

“THE B” will never be “THE B” again. It was never about clinging to dreams of the past, it was always about competitive fairness. But the best version of “THE B”, now, is a Super B that includes the girls on the same weekend and up to 16 different schools.

AA and A, if done correctly, would be highly competitive and would not have schools targeted as public enemy #1. This would be a breath of fresh air.

What would I do?

My smallest AA school would be Jamestown. I’d hope for a Shanley and St Mary’s opt up.
I’d take the next 16 in A, hoping to secure opt ups from four parochials to make it 20. Easier said than done, but there’s a right way to go about this.
The remainder in B.

Super AA, Super A, Super B.

Mark it down. March 10, 2021, Bisonguy becomes a three class advocate.

[justplayalready]

More people need to see the "image" were talking about beyond the final 2 or 4...Is the B image still hanging on Milnor or North Star teams from a few years back??? Or is the ability to get at least 50% of "Sweet 16" right prepopulating those spots with the same 20 schools year after year...

Teams vs Schools????

[Sniper]

Let's steer back on track to identity crisis. Ticket policy for the girls can be handled on the girls thread.

This is an attempt to distract from the issue.

How do we go about getting it fixed? Schools will not vote for it unless it benefits them. Schools in Region 3, and 5 won't vote for it. Region 8 won't vote for it anymore now that Watford City is class A.

Why would region 5 not vote for it? Region 5 is mostly made up of small schools and Bismarck Shiloh which is the capital of transfers. Shiloh has more boys in their school than every team in that region besides Standing Rock. I think every team besides maybe Shiloh would vote for it.

[ndlionsfan]

More people need to see the "image" were talking about beyond the final 2 or 4...Is the B image still hanging on Milnor or North Star teams from a few years back??? Or is the ability to get at least 50% of "Sweet 16" right prepopulating those spots with the same 20 schools year after year...

Teams vs Schools????

To me, I think the past allure of the B was that there were always new teams in it from year to year. You'd get to see these teams make a once in a generation trip to state with the whole town there in attendance. Rarely would there be a team that would make it 3-4 years in a row. If they did it was a special group of players.

Like others have said, the past 10-15 (heck even 20+ years) you can pick with near certainty about 6 teams that will be at state.