6 fouls

Class B Boys
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby B-oldtimer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:11 pm

I am not saying that refereeing isn't difficult job to do and it is under appreciated but it isn't only factor in refereeing shortage. Its like a lot of other things in North Dakota we don't have people here to fill these rolls in communities. I look around our community the number of individuals that could ref and had experience of playing and knowing the game who are young now is very limited. The generation that has grown up in past 20 years is much smaller than it was in previous generation at least here in rural North Dakota. It is reflected in our school enrollments and how remaining schools even have had to coop to keep viable programs going. Also the participation numbers I believe now are much lower than previous generation so now we have much smaller pool of candidates. Then add in large number of this generation that have played basketball have not returned to their communities like in the past we get to where we are now not very large pool of people to fill refereeing profession. Also in past large number of our teachers did this for additional income when coming out of school but here again we are having hard time attracting people to teaching so we have teacher shortage. A lot of schools are having hard enough time filling all coaching positions and have looked from community to fill these positions. I don't condone picking on refs and I think they do a good job but from my experience the fans have improved great deal from when I was young and overall I don't see the problem that I once saw. Yes there are few out there yet that go over the edge but your never going totally eliminate that from the game and I think overall high school sports has gotten good handle on people that have gone over the edge. I am willing bet most referees when the game is going don't here much of how crowd reacting to individual call because they are just like players really involved in the game and reaction to their calls are just background to what they are doing. There will always be criticisms about refereeing but I don't think that's main reason we have shortage of referees.
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby wan2bqb » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:15 pm

OldSchoolBaller wrote:
stir the pot wrote:
ReadyToPlay wrote:To restate about small, it was meant to be like Tiny school, like the following recap.. one bad call, whether it be a controversial foul or violation, has a lot of true basketball fans muddering to themselves.
"What if?"

Class B power Hillsboro nipped tiny Epping 56-52 for the 1977 Class B state boys basketball championship, a game that captivated the state’s basketball fans.

“It was probably the ultimate David vs. Goliath,” said Dave Nelson, a senior on that Hillsboro team and now the head coach at May-Port-CG. “We were one of the bigger schools, and they were one of the smaller schools.”

However, that basket was disallowed after referee Henry Milkey called Don Allard for palming the ball, a call that remains controversial.

“And still to this day, there is the one call from Henry Milkey that turned the game around,” Bob Allard said.


We all need to quit picking on the refs.
Epping may have not even made the championship game if they had't got a couple of calls go their way in their quarter final game. That game went into overtime.

As Brad Pitt said in Moneyball - "Adapt or Die". The game has become more physical over the years, but if the refs were to start calling the game exactly by the rule book you would still have people on here complaining about the reffing. It is the most unappreciated job in the game of basketball. It is sickening to watch fans heckling the refs game in and game out, and I think that this is the biggest reason why we have a reffing shortage in the state in the first place. Who wants to drive 2 hrs a night, 5 days a week, to get heckled and booed. I know that you get decent money for it, but most of the refs are not in it for the money. They ref because they love the game, and for anyone to blame a loss on the reffing really has to take a good, hard look in the mirror and think about if they really deserved a win.


If there was a clap feature on here you would get it. I couldn't agree more. Refs deserve more credit than they are given. I will say arguing a call or complaining is generally accepted and most people that ref or have reffed understand that. Its part of the game and has been for many years, problem is society expects political correctness at all costs. That cannot happen and will not when emotions are involved. It's a gymnasium not a library, Ref's understand boos and heckles its when it get personal it goes over the line. But there are too many plays in a basketball game to say one play or even two, cost you the game, period!
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby stir the pot » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:25 pm

wan2bqb wrote:
OldSchoolBaller wrote:
stir the pot wrote:
ReadyToPlay wrote:To restate about small, it was meant to be like Tiny school, like the following recap.. one bad call, whether it be a controversial foul or violation, has a lot of true basketball fans muddering to themselves.
"What if?"

Class B power Hillsboro nipped tiny Epping 56-52 for the 1977 Class B state boys basketball championship, a game that captivated the state’s basketball fans.

“It was probably the ultimate David vs. Goliath,” said Dave Nelson, a senior on that Hillsboro team and now the head coach at May-Port-CG. “We were one of the bigger schools, and they were one of the smaller schools.”

However, that basket was disallowed after referee Henry Milkey called Don Allard for palming the ball, a call that remains controversial.

“And still to this day, there is the one call from Henry Milkey that turned the game around,” Bob Allard said.


We all need to quit picking on the refs.
Epping may have not even made the championship game if they had't got a couple of calls go their way in their quarter final game. That game went into overtime.

As Brad Pitt said in Moneyball - "Adapt or Die". The game has become more physical over the years, but if the refs were to start calling the game exactly by the rule book you would still have people on here complaining about the reffing. It is the most unappreciated job in the game of basketball. It is sickening to watch fans heckling the refs game in and game out, and I think that this is the biggest reason why we have a reffing shortage in the state in the first place. Who wants to drive 2 hrs a night, 5 days a week, to get heckled and booed. I know that you get decent money for it, but most of the refs are not in it for the money. They ref because they love the game, and for anyone to blame a loss on the reffing really has to take a good, hard look in the mirror and think about if they really deserved a win.


If there was a clap feature on here you would get it. I couldn't agree more. Refs deserve more credit than they are given. I will say arguing a call or complaining is generally accepted and most people that ref or have reffed understand that. Its part of the game and has been for many years, problem is society expects political correctness at all costs. That cannot happen and will not when emotions are involved. It's a gymnasium not a library, Ref's understand boos and heckles its when it get personal it goes over the line. But there are too many plays in a basketball game to say one play or even two, cost you the game, period!


It is going to happen but maybe don't let your team get to that situation were there is going to be call that doesn't go your way.
The refs have a way better view than fans sitting in the stands. Now days there three sets trained eyes working they games.
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby The Schwab » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:08 pm

A few statements/observations:

1. Reffing and coaching are the most underappreciated jobs in sports, because everyone thinks they can do either job.

2. If you're not going to follow the rule book, why have one? To me it seems counterproductive to have coaches and officials take tests every year on the rules of the game and then not follow them during the game.

3. I don't know if a 3 man crew is better then a 2 man crew. Way to often you will hear "it's not in my area", "that's not my call". If you see a violation, call it. Seems pretty simple to me.
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby ReadyToPlay » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:25 am

Yes, reffing is a thankless job as I did it one time in phy ed back in high school and never again---you couldn't call anything without back lash, and that was even without any fans in the stands! As Schwab brought up the question of 3 vs 2 referees, I believe this to be a valid point as everyone has seen it happen----coach asks for explanation and the 3rd ref comes over and does say, "not my call". Maybe the referees have certain restrictions of zones/areas or something in which they are not allowed to infringe on the other officials calls? I think that the 3 officials came about because of supposedly getting better coverage and hence was supposed to be a "cure all" to oppress the fans and coaches to some degree, as you would think that 6 eyes, if scattered around, should be able to pick up 1/3 more violations if indeed they are allowed to do so. With 2 officials back in the day, they worked their butts off as they needed a timeout as much as the ballplayers did as they often needed to borrow a towel from our team to wipe the sweat off. Along with this however came the daunting task of covering every inch of the floor, thus knowing that they had to make a call as there wasn't any third back up. Couldn't even imagine nowadays going back to two officials working that hard with both boys and girls playing several games a week, and then throw b-squad into the mix that requires the same officials. Shortage for this demanding, thankless moonlighting job? I can see without a doubt....
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:09 am

With the shortage of basketball officials right now (and it will probably get worse in the next 10 years) I can see a lot more "jamborees" being held in Bismarck, Jamestown, Fargo, Grand Forks, Minot and Dickinson over the coming seasons. It is easier to book 4 or 5 officials to come to one venue and ref 3 - 4 games apiece in one day than it is to try and fill 8 or 9 individual nights. I can also see more girls/boys doubleheaders for the same reason - easier to book 3 officials to do 2 JV and 2 Varsity games at one time. For schools that are farther away from the large cities (where most of the officials are from) will find it harder and harder to book officials, especially if you end up rescheduling because of weather, etc...
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby wem » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:55 am

3 refs hasn't changed a thing, except for costing schools more money.
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Re: 6 fouls

Postby classB4ever » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:00 am

The Schwab wrote:A few statements/observations:

1. Reffing and coaching are the most underappreciated jobs in sports, because everyone thinks they can do either job.

2. If you're not going to follow the rule book, why have one? To me it seems counterproductive to have coaches and officials take tests every year on the rules of the game and then not follow them during the game.

3. I don't know if a 3 man crew is better then a 2 man crew. Way to often you will hear "it's not in my area", "that's not my call". If you see a violation, call it. Seems pretty simple to me.


Agree with all of this. I think we can all agree coaches and refs have tough jobs.

Would like to address something that was brought up earlier that I have mixed emotions on. The philosophy "Players should be able to adjust their games to how it's being called." Has anybody ever sat back and wondered why the players should have to adjust their games to the different reffing styles? Many of these kids work all year long honing their skills. Paying a lot of money traveling to tourneys, attending camps, playing in leagues, etc. Spending their summers in the gym and weight room instead of at the lakes. They practice their game according to the rule book. Then, they are asked to adjust their game to different reffing styles? My point is the refs are being paid to do a job and have a rule book to follow. If rules are left up to interpretation by individuals, there will never be a chance of consistency. And I believe consistency is the only thing that coaches, players and even fans care about. Watched many games this year and for the most part thought the officiating was above average.
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