The Latest Plan

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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:39 am

packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
Wilbur wrote:How can all the parochial schools be in the same region? There are only 6 of them in Class B, so you would need at least six other schools to make up the region. Who would the other six schools be? Travel is a major concern under this scenario. Bishop Ryan and Our Redeemer’s are at least 100 miles from Williston and Bismarck; Williston is about 100 miles from Dickinson, Dickinson is 100 miles from Bismarck, and Bismarck is 190 miles from Fargo. I don’t see the NDHSAA even considering such a plan. everyone’s vision of all the parochial schools being in the same region in class b, or in another class together is not going to happen.


I agree. The travel would never allow it to work. Plus, if you were to put them all in a region you are just guaranteeing a private school in the state tourney each year and taking more opportunities away from the smaller schools. Yes I know, most years have 2-3 private schools in the state tourney, but putting them all in one region still doesn't fix any issue.


I totally agree this would never happen but lionsfan but I think that most ppl would be ok with 1 private in each state tournament, the problem is 3 of the final 4 and 5 of the 6 in region championships. If they had their own division and 1 was in the state tournament I think most ppl could swallow that. And actually the one issue I dont wanna see here is travel, go look at Dickinsons, Bismarck and Fargo schedules travel isnt a factor for them.


Each of those schools is much larger and gets funding from the state and local taxes. Private schools run strictly off tuition and donations. Adding a huge amount of travel expenses would make it very difficult for them, especially the smaller ones.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby MHSFan50 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:46 am

My only comment on this post will be to the travel argument. Class A teams regularly travel 100+ miles for all of their away games, with exception of Bismarck, GF and Fargo schools when playing in-town rivals. Minot to Dickinson is just over 200 miles, same for Bismarck to Williston. Minot plays non-conference games against GF and Fargo teams. It has never caused any issue. The longer travel games (200 miles) are generally scheduled for Friday/Saturday, or over the holiday break so that late return times will not affect school the next day. I understand Class A and B are very different, and I'm absolutely no expert on Class B schools/enrollments/funding/etc. Just a statement that I wanted to make. Not looking to argue A vs. B.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby packers21 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:39 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
Wilbur wrote:How can all the parochial schools be in the same region? There are only 6 of them in Class B, so you would need at least six other schools to make up the region. Who would the other six schools be? Travel is a major concern under this scenario. Bishop Ryan and Our Redeemer’s are at least 100 miles from Williston and Bismarck; Williston is about 100 miles from Dickinson, Dickinson is 100 miles from Bismarck, and Bismarck is 190 miles from Fargo. I don’t see the NDHSAA even considering such a plan. everyone’s vision of all the parochial schools being in the same region in class b, or in another class together is not going to happen.


I agree. The travel would never allow it to work. Plus, if you were to put them all in a region you are just guaranteeing a private school in the state tourney each year and taking more opportunities away from the smaller schools. Yes I know, most years have 2-3 private schools in the state tourney, but putting them all in one region still doesn't fix any issue.


I totally agree this would never happen but lionsfan but I think that most ppl would be ok with 1 private in each state tournament, the problem is 3 of the final 4 and 5 of the 6 in region championships. If they had their own division and 1 was in the state tournament I think most ppl could swallow that. And actually the one issue I dont wanna see here is travel, go look at Dickinsons, Bismarck and Fargo schedules travel isnt a factor for them.


Each of those schools is much larger and gets funding from the state and local taxes. Private schools run strictly off tuition and donations. Adding a huge amount of travel expenses would make it very difficult for them, especially the smaller ones.


I was talking about Dickinson Trinity, Shiloh, and Oak Grove. Just go look at who they play and where. Travel should be the last thing they complain about. They all play great schedules all over the state.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:35 am

The travel argument is not valid. We don't need a system that forces your hand in scheduling.

Instead, use the QRF formula to determine seeding for a regional tournament, and play teams that will schedule you in your area.

Works just fine in Minnesota, with larger regions and more teams.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby scruffy » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:53 pm

They better be careful. If it's so blatant that all they're doing is "preventing" certain teams with religious beliefs, ethnic backgrounds or something else discriminating from advancing to state it will never work. Courts will strike it down in a heartbeat.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Sniper » Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:51 pm

scruffy wrote:They better be careful. If it's so blatant that all they're doing is "preventing" certain teams with religious beliefs, ethnic backgrounds or something else discriminating from advancing to state it will never work. Courts will strike it down in a heartbeat.


It has nothing to do with their religious beliefs or ethnic backgrounds, it has to do with placing teams with similar advantages in the same class. It would be discrimination if they put all of the reservation schools in one class. The three class system is not going to prevent anyone from going to state, it is simply evening out the playing field so more teams can advance to state. Shiloh and Trinity will still be regulars in the state tournament if they are in the middle class, but now we will have more of a variety of smaller schools reaching the lowest classes state tournament.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Kwoods » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:53 am

packers21 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
Wilbur wrote:How can all the parochial schools be in the same region? There are only 6 of them in Class B, so you would need at least six other schools to make up the region. Who would the other six schools be? Travel is a major concern under this scenario. Bishop Ryan and Our Redeemer’s are at least 100 miles from Williston and Bismarck; Williston is about 100 miles from Dickinson, Dickinson is 100 miles from Bismarck, and Bismarck is 190 miles from Fargo. I don’t see the NDHSAA even considering such a plan. everyone’s vision of all the parochial schools being in the same region in class b, or in another class together is not going to happen.


I agree. The travel would never allow it to work. Plus, if you were to put them all in a region you are just guaranteeing a private school in the state tourney each year and taking more opportunities away from the smaller schools. Yes I know, most years have 2-3 private schools in the state tourney, but putting them all in one region still doesn't fix any issue.


I totally agree this would never happen but lionsfan but I think that most ppl would be ok with 1 private in each state tournament, the problem is 3 of the final 4 and 5 of the 6 in region championships. If they had their own division and 1 was in the state tournament I think most ppl could swallow that. And actually the one issue I dont wanna see here is travel, go look at Dickinsons, Bismarck and Fargo schedules travel isnt a factor for them.



Its true when you look at the private schools and their schedules along with the schools that would be class B most of these schools already play each other. If you put all the privates into their own region they could possibly play on neutral courts a few times with the locations rotating to avoid some travel. But overall other than Trinity Christian these schools all already play each other.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Bigbrew22 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:30 am

Sniper wrote:
scruffy wrote:They better be careful. If it's so blatant that all they're doing is "preventing" certain teams with religious beliefs, ethnic backgrounds or something else discriminating from advancing to state it will never work. Courts will strike it down in a heartbeat.


It has nothing to do with their religious beliefs or ethnic backgrounds, it has to do with placing teams with similar advantages in the same class. It would be discrimination if they put all of the reservation schools in one class. The three class system is not going to prevent anyone from going to state, it is simply evening out the playing field so more teams can advance to state. Shiloh and Trinity will still be regulars in the state tournament if they are in the middle class, but now we will have more of a variety of smaller schools reaching the lowest classes state tournament.


Sooooo... Scruffy thinks we are all atheists that hate religion!.......IDIOT
People who send they're kids to public school couldn't possibly be religious......Right!!
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Mailman_25 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:44 am

I have no dog in this fight. However, I do have a question. Since it has been mentioned above that any attempt to move private schools into a separate region, etc would result in lawsuits and such, my question is how come some states are allowed to have a private school escalator. I am not sure, but doesn't SD?
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby scruffy » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:20 am

South Dakota does have private schools in class "B". Class "AA" is for schools with 450 or more students, class "A" is comprised of schools between 90 and 450 students and class "B" is for schools below 90. I have family members who's schools are in both "A" and "B" and they all say that the three classes has taken a lot away from their "March Madness" and would prefer two systems... They contend that the class "B" gets very little attention and is generally ignored because the media outlets are all from class "A" or "AA" towns....
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby B-oldtimer » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:02 pm

I am not familiar with South Dakota basketball but the splits seem to be in my mind is that Top and bottom classes would represent smallest number of schools for the state where class A would be by far the largest class of schools. The proposed plan here would be that the top two classes here in North Dakota would be the two smallest classes by numbers. Leaving the Class b or the lower class with greatest number of schools and still significant number of people interested in that class. If North Dakota would do the same thing as South Dakota I would agree that Class b or lowest class would not be followed by media very well and would not be followed very well. That is why we need to have plan where the top two classes are determined by number of schools in that class plus moving of private schools to the middle class and also allowing any school the ability to move up a class if they so would choose too. This is most logical plan to me and would keep the interest in class b basketball. The middle class schools would by limited number in that class still be able to play at state tournament games nearly as often as they are now. The class b schools for smaller schools would have improved chance in playing in regional and state tournaments and would be still fan favorite across the state. I believe the middle class would be very similar to the old north Star region in class A basketball in the 80's with exception they would be there own class. This class would be almost made up of the towns that were in North Star region plus some of western schools that have grown in past 10 years and schools around Fargo and of course the private schools.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby scruffy » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:32 pm

Looked into Montana. They have "AA", "A", "B" and "C". All divisions are simply based on enrollment. No variances for being public or private, black brown or white, Scandinavian or German, incorporated or unincorporated or if you're located east or west of the great divide! The "C" division is comprised of all schools with fewer then 100 students and the "AA" is made up of schools with more then 850. I don't recall how the middle classes are broke down.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:47 pm

MN has in Boys Bball
A
AA
AAA
AAAA

Minneapolis North won 1A this year
below is just section 4 1A...there are 8 sections for a total of about 165-170 schools in 1A

Its a good thing they are not ND..........there would be some serious tears :( going on
I would also venture to bet.....you have no voice in it.....dont like? move out!

Section Standings

Minneapolis North Community H.S. 26-5-0
Prairie Seeds Academy 22-5-1
Hope Academy 22-6-0
Heritage Christian Academy 21-7-0
Cristo Rey Jesuit 19-8-0
Christ's Household of Faith 18-4-0
Calvin Christian H.S. 15-13-0
Community of Peace Academy 12-13-0
Learning for Leadership Charter 12-15-0
Legacy Christian Academy 12-16-0
Bethany Academy 11-15-0
Nova Classical Academy 11-13-0
West Lutheran 11-17-0
Groves Academy 10-12-0
Maranatha Christian Academy 10-16-0
Minnesota Transitions Charter 10-15-0
Liberty Classical Academy 10-14-0
North Lakes Academy 3-20-0
St. Paul Preparatory 2-18-0
Lincoln International 1-4-0
Chesterton Academy 0-13-0
Metro s College Prep 0-13-0
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:49 pm

winner-within wrote:Its a good thing they are not ND..........there would be some serious tears :( going on
I would also venture to bet.....you have no voice in it.....dont like? move out!

I'm not 100% sure what your point is, but section 4 Class A for basketball is the metro area so I believe all of those schools besides North are private schools and this will probably be their last cycle in Class A they are right on the cutoff for moving up. It would seem to be impossible for a public school to keep their enrollment under 200 in a metro area.

There were some odd circumstances that put North in A anyway. They used to win state titles in AAAA. If anyone remembers that's where Khalid El-Amin went to school. El-Amin won a national title at UConn and got drafted by the Bulls. Maybe played for the Dakota Wizards too?
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Didn't the have another stud around that time that went to play for Michigan State?
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:40 pm

The Schwab wrote:Didn't the have another stud around that time that went to play for Michigan State?

Only MN kid I remember going to Michigan State was Isaiah Dahlman, but he was from Braham. His sister holds the state scoring record at 5,060.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:50 pm

Flip wrote:
The Schwab wrote:Didn't the have another stud around that time that went to play for Michigan State?

Only MN kid I remember going to Michigan State was Isaiah Dahlman, but he was from Braham. His sister holds the state scoring record at 5,060.

I remember watching the Dahlman's on a video feed for the state tournament! So awesome
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:51 pm

Flip wrote:
winner-within wrote:Its a good thing they are not ND..........there would be some serious tears :( going on
I would also venture to bet.....you have no voice in it.....dont like? move out!

I'm not 100% sure what your point is, but section 4 Class A for basketball is the metro area so I believe all of those schools besides North are private schools and this will probably be their last cycle in Class A they are right on the cutoff for moving up. It would seem to be impossible for a public school to keep their enrollment under 200 in a metro area.

There were some odd circumstances that put North in A anyway. They used to win state titles in AAAA. If anyone remembers that's where Khalid El-Amin went to school. El-Amin won a national title at UConn and got drafted by the Bulls. Maybe played for the Dakota Wizards too?


I posted this section because of the heavy privates, and no, most wont move up (few might), the redistricting has been done which is why MN North is 1A now....this is coming from my source you may know more Flip....but even with that said if we think we're lopsided in ND its not even a comparison to the MN scenario...
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Mandan » Mon May 02, 2016 12:15 pm

Reading the April NDHSAA board minutes, there is this one note on page 5 of the minutes:
http://www.ndhsaa.com/files/Board_Minut ... inutes.pdf

"Classification systems in other states was discussed. Forcing non-public schools to play at a
higher level would not be recommended by NDHSAA legal counsel."

Which says to me that however a new plan is configured, for the board to support it, the smaller private schools need to be at the same level that the other smaller public schools with that same attendance will be.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Thu May 12, 2016 12:56 pm

I think a lot of the private schools would opt up.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby heimer » Tue May 24, 2016 3:50 pm

Here's an idea:

How about the legal counsel for the league goes and $ucks a fat lemon?

NDHSAA membership is not mandatory. If you are a school with no defined districts, and you do not like the classification policies of the league, you can get a refund on your dues, play independent, and stay home during the playoffs.

This is how things get done. Sounds like the legal counsel is from a private school. It took 30 seconds of thought to blow that theory all to Hel1.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Sportsrube » Tue May 24, 2016 4:43 pm

Could not agree with you more heimer. This is pretty much the same argument the NCAA had with UND. The NCAA is a voluntary association and if UND wanted to play in the NCAA Tournaments they had to follow their rules or they could choose to go independent. I believe the NDHSAA could use this argument (and win) if they only had the guts (or any other part of anatomy you want to use) to actually do it.
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Re: The Latest Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:33 pm

I thought this was interesting. I'm not insinuating anything.

With regards to Thompson:

The numbers of students who are open enrolled into our district—86, as of last month—are about equal to the 84 who open-enroll out...

http://www.grandforksherald.com/opinion ... d-thompson
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