Selection of Officials

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Selection of Officials

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:32 am

I thought it would be better to make this discussion it's own topic
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:39 am

Coaches vote for officials for post season play, they are given a list of every registered official in the state who is eligible to work post season events. I believe that last year the allowed officials to work more than one regional tournament (correct me if I'm wrong, this was a change that was needed).

I will speak from my point of view (Western ND), in Region 7 most teams use the Dickinson Roughrider Officials Association (some of the teams who are farther East have the luxury of using Bismarck or Mandan officials) I don't remember a time in the past 6 seasons where an official doing the Regional boys tournament (and all but 1 doing the girls) wasn't a member of the DROA. This year I believe there are 13 officials who do varsity basketball games for the DROA. If the state (NDHSAA picks the officials, do they use the coaches vote? I'm sure to some extent) wants different officials to work each tournament that will mean that 1 official in the association won't get a Regional.

My point in bringing this up is simple. Out east there are a ton of officials, therefore coaches may have the "upper hand" on deciding who gets to work tournaments. On the western side of the state we take whoever we can get.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:31 pm

Officials should work their own areas during district and regional tournaments, then send the best of the best to the state tournament.

I say this because the reduction in refined skill has resulted in a faster and more physical game and outside officials can end up picking on some kids unintentionally. Officials from the surrounding area know the players and what they are capable of doing without fouling. When 3 non-local guys from another association come in for tournament time, you almost always see foul trouble not commonly seen in season play. It isn't their fault, but it isn't the kids' fault either, and they and their teams shouldn't be affected by it. Put officials who have seen the kids play out there.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby The Schwab » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:49 pm

I agree with you to a point, if all officials in our state would call games the way they are supposed to (i.e. the rule book) then there shouldn't be any issue with having different officials come in and officiate the game. When schools contract the associations to do their games, not all officials in that association will see those schools play. So you can have refs from the area that get that region game and haven't seen team A play at all this year, but have seen team B play 4 times. In my opinion that creates bias that is not needed.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:25 pm

RedDirtFan wrote:Officials should work their own areas during district and regional tournaments, then send the best of the best to the state tournament.

I say this because the reduction in refined skill has resulted in a faster and more physical game and outside officials can end up picking on some kids unintentionally. Officials from the surrounding area know the players and what they are capable of doing without fouling. When 3 non-local guys from another association come in for tournament time, you almost always see foul trouble not commonly seen in season play. It isn't their fault, but it isn't the kids' fault either, and they and their teams shouldn't be affected by it. Put officials who have seen the kids play out there.


I think I understand the point you are making, but isn't a foul a foul, a travel a travel, etc. regardless of speed or physicality of the game? When I hear, "officials know the players and what they are capable of..." I get nervous because I don't want referees to ever adjust calls based on a player. I've always had a pet peeve regarding officials feeling the need to adjust the rules (for example: letting smaller players hold and push a bigger or faster player) in order to help even the playing field. The "how else are they going to guard them" rationale has never held water with me. From my perspective, I think getting fresh, unbiased eyes would generally be a good thing but understand the logistical ramifications of making this happen.

For what its worth, the refereeing I have witnessed this year, with a sample size of 30+ games, has really been pretty good overall.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby winner-within » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:02 pm

RedDirtFan wrote:Officials should work their own areas during district and regional tournaments, then send the best of the best to the state tournament.

I say this because the reduction in refined skill has resulted in a faster and more physical game and outside officials can end up picking on some kids unintentionally. Officials from the surrounding area know the players and what they are capable of doing without fouling. When 3 non-local guys from another association come in for tournament time, you almost always see foul trouble not commonly seen in season play. It isn't their fault, but it isn't the kids' fault either, and they and their teams shouldn't be affected by it. Put officials who have seen the kids play out there.



I would or wouldn't totally disagree with this if you know what I mean.....but it just seems to me since the begining of time in Class B ND that there is an element of what I would dub "who is supposed to win" the game, stemming down from the Schools themselves to the general public (wont say fans because so many critique and some even hope their own town/team loses) and right on to the floor with the officials....
so what plays into this "element" in my experiences? well truthfully many things year in and year out can even be different scenarios...so in general in my many many years plus of watching

1. over-all record and record in the dist./region
2. how far they went the year before and what was expected current year
3. which team has the big gun/guns....and now days this is much worse with social media and even this site
4. seasoned coach vs fresh coach

wont go on and on
point being....the team that should win can lose, they just can

so you see my point and maybe some have observed it differently or could add to my list
I would go on to say that being an Official is not an easy task (I've done it) but when voting is involved in anything... well then, there will be lobbyist ..
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby classB4ever » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:16 pm

EHS1998 wrote:
I think I understand the point you are making, but isn't a foul a foul, a travel a travel, etc. regardless of speed or physicality of the game? When I hear, "officials know the players and what they are capable of..." I get nervous because I don't want referees to ever adjust calls based on a player. I've always had a pet peeve regarding officials feeling the need to adjust the rules (for example: letting smaller players hold and push a bigger or faster player) in order to help even the playing field. The "how else are they going to guard them" rationale has never held water with me. From my perspective, I think getting fresh, unbiased eyes would generally be a good thing but understand the logistical ramifications of making this happen.

For what its worth, the refereeing I have witnessed this year, with a sample size of 30+ games, has really been pretty good overall.


Agreed. Have seen a fair amount of games this year as well. Have witnessed "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly," but for the most part has been pretty good. What I look for in refs is consistency. Not only for the players but for the coaches and from the beginning of the game to the end of the game. Have seen coaches ripping refs and nothing is done. Then watched a coach ask a question and was told to sit down. Have watched refs who do a lot of college games reffing high school games and have noticed much more physicality allowed in the beginning of the game, only to tighten it up as the game went along. Players and coaches will adjust if they know where they stand at the beginning of the game. If they can't adjust, well then they deserve what they get.
Back on point, I would like to see them interchange refs from adjacent regions once the tournaments come along. I assume the additional cost will always prevent it, but I think it would be worth it. 2 cents.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:28 pm

Totally agree on the consistency part. Players can adjust to the way things are being called but if it is not consistent, they are at the refs mercy.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:52 pm

EHS1998 wrote:I think I understand the point you are making, but isn't a foul a foul, a travel a travel, etc. regardless of speed or physicality of the game? When I hear, "officials know the players and what they are capable of..." I get nervous because I don't want referees to ever adjust calls based on a player. I've always had a pet peeve regarding officials feeling the need to adjust the rules (for example: letting smaller players hold and push a bigger or faster player) in order to help even the playing field. The "how else are they going to guard them" rationale has never held water with me. From my perspective, I think getting fresh, unbiased eyes would generally be a good thing but understand the logistical ramifications of making this happen.

For what its worth, the refereeing I have witnessed this year, with a sample size of 30+ games, has really been pretty good overall.


Absolutely not. Fouls are as open to interpretation as anything, which is the biggest consistency issue in class B right now (Keep in mind that I would absolutely state that Class B is officiated very very well in general, even with this inconsistency). For example, on night one the crew understands the block/charge rule very well, but the next night you've got some guy in the crew who thinks he's reffing an NBA game so he's all but forgotten what a blocking foul is. And that's just one rule example among many. Some officials give good shot blockers the benefit of the doubt, while others are more likely to blow the whistle nearly every a blocked shot happens. It all boils down to a basic rule--did the incident of contact create a disadvantage for the either player? If not, it's not a foul. Say that player A drives into the lane, but doesn't have the vertical that player B has, and player A gets his layup attempt swatted away by player B rather easily even with some lower body contact. Should player B be punished for blocking a shot that had no chance to ever get over him? Absolutely not, and therein lies one difference between officials who have seen teams play and those who haven't--officials who know the two teams on the court know who the great athletes are who can do things like that. You also have players who are adept at stealing the ball, players who know how to draw charges by establishing guarding position rather than sliding underneath an offensive player, etc, etc.

Say team A has one player who never had more than 3 fouls throughout the season, but all of a sudden it's a Region tournament game and he's got 3 fouls with 6 minutes to go in the first half, and 4 fouls with 5 minutes to go in the third quarter, and it happens because you've got one or two guys in the officiating crew who haven't officiated his team before that day. Don't you think that might happen more often if you throw guys out there who are unfamiliar with the teams and players?

I understand that we do see plenty of familiar faces come tournament time, so don't take this post as me saying that something should be changed. I'm just stating that the idea of pulling guys over to different areas where they don't generally officiate is a bad idea.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:41 pm

RedDirtFan wrote: Say that player A drives into the lane, but doesn't have the vertical that player B has, and player A gets his layup attempt swatted away by player B rather easily even with some lower body contact.


You make an extremely compelling argument but I have a hard time getting on board with this. How can a ref determine that an advantage was not gained when contact was made? Not certain I would ever be comfortable with that level of subjectivity by high school refs, whether they are familiar with the players or not.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:03 pm

EHS1998 wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote: Say that player A drives into the lane, but doesn't have the vertical that player B has, and player A gets his layup attempt swatted away by player B rather easily even with some lower body contact.


You make an extremely compelling argument but I have a hard time getting on board with this. How can a ref determine that an advantage was not gained when contact was made? Not certain I would ever be comfortable with that level of subjectivity by high school refs, whether they are familiar with the players or not.


My point isn't so much about the contact as it is that player A took a bad shot and should not be rewarded for it just because a slight bump happened when player B blocked the shot easily. Does that help?
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby EHS1998 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:05 pm

RedDirtFan wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote: Say that player A drives into the lane, but doesn't have the vertical that player B has, and player A gets his layup attempt swatted away by player B rather easily even with some lower body contact.


You make an extremely compelling argument but I have a hard time getting on board with this. How can a ref determine that an advantage was not gained when contact was made? Not certain I would ever be comfortable with that level of subjectivity by high school refs, whether they are familiar with the players or not.


My point isn't so much about the contact as it is that player A took a bad shot and should not be rewarded for it just because a slight bump happened when player B blocked the shot easily. Does that help?


Sure does. Thanks.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:17 pm

RedDirtFan wrote: It all boils down to a basic rule--did the incident of contact create a disadvantage for the either player? If not, it's not a foul.


That's the biggest thing people don't understand. Not all contact is a foul.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:28 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote: It all boils down to a basic rule--did the incident of contact create a disadvantage for the either player? If not, it's not a foul.


That's the biggest thing people don't understand. Not all contact is a foul.


And I'm no rules expert, myself, but if people would just put in the effort to learning about the way the game is officiated, so many things would be easier for the general fan to understand. There are very, very few bad calls in a basketball game. In my opinion, the majority of bad calls come when refs are not familiar with teams and players, so it isn't even their fault. With the way the game is played today, important games need to be officiated by officials who are one of two things: 1. Among the best in the nearby association or state or 2. Familiar with both teams and the players on each team.

And there are a lot of great officials in this state, at that. The very best do stand out, of course, but I wouldn't say there's much separation between any of them. The younger or less experienced do have their struggles, but put yourself in their shoes. The game is more physical than it's ever been.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:50 am

RedDirtFan wrote:
And I'm no rules expert, myself, but if people would just put in the effort to learning about the way the game is officiated, so many things would be easier for the general fan to understand. There are very, very few bad calls in a basketball game. In my opinion, the majority of bad calls come when refs are not familiar with teams and players, so it isn't even their fault. With the way the game is played today, important games need to be officiated by officials who are one of two things: 1. Among the best in the nearby association or state or 2. Familiar with both teams and the players on each team.

And there are a lot of great officials in this state, at that. The very best do stand out, of course, but I wouldn't say there's much separation between any of them. The younger or less experienced do have their struggles, but put yourself in their shoes. The game is more physical than it's ever been.


So let me understand this. You are saying that the best reffing comes when the refs know the players well? Know their tendencies? Wow. Is there a possibility they might start anticipating calls? Is there a possibility they could generate a bias?
A police officer moves from Grafton to Fargo. Out on his new beat, he and his new partner witness a shoplifter. He moves in for the arrest and his new partner asks, "What are you doing?" He says, "I am going to arrest that shoplifter." His new partner says, "Oh, no, you don't have to. His dad is important around here. He does that all the time and we just let him do it."
A foul is a foul. A violation is a violation. How you ref a game can be interpreted. But if a ref needs to know players to do his best reffing, we are in trouble.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:19 am

I agree with classB4ever, if officials need to "know a player" in order to do a good job of officiating, then we are in trouble. As long as officials are consistent in what they call, players and coaches usually adjust. What I see as a problem is that of the 3 officials, one calls it one way and the other two call it different, so players can never get a feel for how the game is going to be officiated. If all 3 officials can get on the same page, I think they will do a good job 90% of the time.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby heimer » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:21 am

classB4ever wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote:
And I'm no rules expert, myself, but if people would just put in the effort to learning about the way the game is officiated, so many things would be easier for the general fan to understand. There are very, very few bad calls in a basketball game. In my opinion, the majority of bad calls come when refs are not familiar with teams and players, so it isn't even their fault. With the way the game is played today, important games need to be officiated by officials who are one of two things: 1. Among the best in the nearby association or state or 2. Familiar with both teams and the players on each team.

And there are a lot of great officials in this state, at that. The very best do stand out, of course, but I wouldn't say there's much separation between any of them. The younger or less experienced do have their struggles, but put yourself in their shoes. The game is more physical than it's ever been.


So let me understand this. You are saying that the best reffing comes when the refs know the players well? Know their tendencies? Wow. Is there a possibility they might start anticipating calls? Is there a possibility they could generate a bias?
A police officer moves from Grafton to Fargo. Out on his new beat, he and his new partner witness a shoplifter. He moves in for the arrest and his new partner asks, "What are you doing?" He says, "I am going to arrest that shoplifter." His new partner says, "Oh, no, you don't have to. His dad is important around here. He does that all the time and we just let him do it."
A foul is a foul. A violation is a violation. How you ref a game can be interpreted. But if a ref needs to know players to do his best reffing, we are in trouble.


We're in trouble anyway, for several aforementioned reasons, not the least of which is negative consequences for a referee's career for keeping players and coaches in line.

Last night, girls game: player tries to force a jump ball, one ref signals jump, the other a foul, they confer, foul is the result.

Coach of team on defense: "BULLS__T! BULLS__T!"

Not even a stern look.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:21 am

classB4ever wrote:So let me understand this. You are saying that the best reffing comes when the refs know the players well? Know their tendencies? Wow. Is there a possibility they might start anticipating calls? Is there a possibility they could generate a bias?
A police officer moves from Grafton to Fargo. Out on his new beat, he and his new partner witness a shoplifter. He moves in for the arrest and his new partner asks, "What are you doing?" He says, "I am going to arrest that shoplifter." His new partner says, "Oh, no, you don't have to. His dad is important around here. He does that all the time and we just let him do it."
A foul is a foul. A violation is a violation. How you ref a game can be interpreted. But if a ref needs to know players to do his best reffing, we are in trouble.


Holy exaggeration, Batman. The physicality of today's game makes it paramount that officials know the teams and players in order to understand their athletic capabilities. That's not called bias, that's improving through observation, and it's necessary in today's high school ball.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:33 am

RedDirtFan wrote:
Holy exaggeration, Batman. The physicality of today's game makes it paramount that officials know the teams and players in order to understand their athletic capabilities. That's not called bias, that's improving through observation, and it's necessary in today's high school ball.


No, no, no. You do not adjust the rules to the game. You adjust the game to the rules. If you need to change the rules, then change them so everyone can follow the same rules, equally. You don't do it on the run and you don't allow for each official to interpret the rules as they see fit. What you are saying is preposterous and why officials get in trouble in the first place. Your ideas are why players and coaches get frustrated and why tempers flare. They get away with it one time and then they think they should get away with it every time. When they don't, they get angry and things get out of hand. Call the game consistent and as close to the rule book as possible and then you don't even realize the refs are there and you can enjoy watching the game and the players.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby winner-within » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:53 am

RedDirtFan wrote:
classB4ever wrote:So let me understand this. You are saying that the best reffing comes when the refs know the players well? Know their tendencies? Wow. Is there a possibility they might start anticipating calls? Is there a possibility they could generate a bias?
A police officer moves from Grafton to Fargo. Out on his new beat, he and his new partner witness a shoplifter. He moves in for the arrest and his new partner asks, "What are you doing?" He says, "I am going to arrest that shoplifter." His new partner says, "Oh, no, you don't have to. His dad is important around here. He does that all the time and we just let him do it."
A foul is a foul. A violation is a violation. How you ref a game can be interpreted. But if a ref needs to know players to do his best reffing, we are in trouble.


Holy exaggeration, Batman. The physicality of today's game makes it paramount that officials know the teams and players in order to understand their athletic capabilities. That's not called bias, that's improving through observation, and it's necessary in today's high school ball.



I played Class B ND ball 80's era (Physical in itself) played MN college ball (much more physical) but I will say this.....the game has not changed when it comes to contact I have walked thru the door of Gyms from Killdeer to Pembina and paid my entry fee and grabbed a program for years now and the game is still a basketball game boys or girls and the reffing is what it is....Its like hunting snow geese "unpredictable" it can change the whole game and even the outcome plain and simple....there is a personality, a demeanor, an attitude, a how am I feeling today, behind every whistle, all human beings .....cant change that fact....but if you have taken the steps to Ref ND Class B Varsity Ball than you have to be able to walk into a gym meet with the captains of the team set the tone then and there and ref the ball game no matter where your at or whos playing (and a ref needs to know nothing about the Coach either...he can figure them out 2 mins into a game)......the one thing I do know (being team captain) is there is less communication between refs and and team captains once the game is underway now days then there used to be....and I believe that stems from in school now days where a kid is not supposed to voice and opinion this day in age....there is always room for improvement in any job or activity in life.... :)
Last edited by winner-within on Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby The Schwab » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:56 am

RedDirtFan wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:I think I understand the point you are making, but isn't a foul a foul, a travel a travel, etc. regardless of speed or physicality of the game? When I hear, "officials know the players and what they are capable of..." I get nervous because I don't want referees to ever adjust calls based on a player. I've always had a pet peeve regarding officials feeling the need to adjust the rules (for example: letting smaller players hold and push a bigger or faster player) in order to help even the playing field. The "how else are they going to guard them" rationale has never held water with me. From my perspective, I think getting fresh, unbiased eyes would generally be a good thing but understand the logistical ramifications of making this happen.

For what its worth, the refereeing I have witnessed this year, with a sample size of 30+ games, has really been pretty good overall.


Absolutely not. Fouls are as open to interpretation as anything, which is the biggest consistency issue in class B right now (Keep in mind that I would absolutely state that Class B is officiated very very well in general, even with this inconsistency). For example, on night one the crew understands the block/charge rule very well, but the next night you've got some guy in the crew who thinks he's reffing an NBA game so he's all but forgotten what a blocking foul is. And that's just one rule example among many. Some officials give good shot blockers the benefit of the doubt, while others are more likely to blow the whistle nearly every a blocked shot happens. It all boils down to a basic rule--did the incident of contact create a disadvantage for the either player? If not, it's not a foul. Say that player A drives into the lane, but doesn't have the vertical that player B has, and player A gets his layup attempt swatted away by player B rather easily even with some lower body contact. Should player B be punished for blocking a shot that had no chance to ever get over him? Absolutely not, and therein lies one difference between officials who have seen teams play and those who haven't--officials who know the two teams on the court know who the great athletes are who can do things like that. You also have players who are adept at stealing the ball, players who know how to draw charges by establishing guarding position rather than sliding underneath an offensive player, etc, etc.

Say team A has one player who never had more than 3 fouls throughout the season, but all of a sudden it's a Region tournament game and he's got 3 fouls with 6 minutes to go in the first half, and 4 fouls with 5 minutes to go in the third quarter, and it happens because you've got one or two guys in the officiating crew who haven't officiated his team before that day. Don't you think that might happen more often if you throw guys out there who are unfamiliar with the teams and players?

I understand that we do see plenty of familiar faces come tournament time, so don't take this post as me saying that something should be changed. I'm just stating that the idea of pulling guys over to different areas where they don't generally officiate is a bad idea.


The first statement in bold: If the lower body contact displaces the shooter and has caused an advantage/disadvantage then it is a foul regardless if the block is clean or not, no matter how great of a shot blocker player A is. If the contact on the shooter is an arm bar, a hand on the hip or any other contact that limits freedom of movement/displaces the shooter then it is a foul, point blank.

The second statement in bold: I see a lot of officials this year not calling the points of emphasis, I have asked officials why this is and I was told, we are going to call the games the way we've always called them. If the player is then all of a sudden in foul trouble in a key game, it is the fault of the regular season refs who didn't call the game it needs to be called all year long. I have seen games in most sections of the state the past two years, in some parts of the state they have adjusted and called the games like the RULE BOOK STATES.

You also have to have kids that can adjust to the way the game is called. I believe that a large majority of officials are doing a very good job this year in being fair and consistent with their calls, but I don't feel the rule changes have been enforced like the rule book wants them to be.

A couple of calls that I have the biggest problem with this year are the incorrect travel/no travel call. The "Pro-Hop" is called incorrectly a lot of the time, called a travel when it isn't a travel most of the time. The "Reverse Pivot Dribble" is hardly ever called a travel, but 8 times out of 10 it is a travel. Players catch then hop, this is a travel every single time, but only called a travel about 30 percent of the time.

The only things I ask from officials on a day to day basis is
1. Be consistent (Both ways and if it's a foul in the 1st it needs to be a foul in the 4th)
2. Hustle
3. If you make a mistake or miss a call and you realize it, admit it to the coach, they will respect you a lot more.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:03 am

winner-within wrote:
the one thing I do know (being team captain) is there is less communication between refs and and team captains once the game is underway now days then there used to be....and I believe that stems from in school now days where a kid is not supposed to voice and opinion this day in age....there is always room for improvement in any job or activity in life.... :)


winner, that is 100% spot on and a great observation. I wish there was more of that. Use to be the captain talked to the refs if his teammates had concerns. Called the chain of command and has always worked in every facet of life.

The Schwab wrote:
The only things I ask from officials on a day to day basis is
1. Be consistent (Both ways and if it's a foul in the 1st it needs to be a foul in the 4th)
2. Hustle
3. If you make a mistake or miss a call and you realize it, admit it to the coach, they will respect you a lot more.


This is all that needs to be said. 100% correct IMHO.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:22 pm

classB4ever wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote:
Holy exaggeration, Batman. The physicality of today's game makes it paramount that officials know the teams and players in order to understand their athletic capabilities. That's not called bias, that's improving through observation, and it's necessary in today's high school ball.


No, no, no. You do not adjust the rules to the game. You adjust the game to the rules. If you need to change the rules, then change them so everyone can follow the same rules, equally. You don't do it on the run and you don't allow for each official to interpret the rules as they see fit. What you are saying is preposterous and why officials get in trouble in the first place. Your ideas are why players and coaches get frustrated and why tempers flare. They get away with it one time and then they think they should get away with it every time. When they don't, they get angry and things get out of hand. Call the game consistent and as close to the rule book as possible and then you don't even realize the refs are there and you can enjoy watching the game and the players.


Yes yes yes yes yes. There is leeway in basketball rules because of what happens on the floor in regard to the rules. Say player A slides under player B to try and draw a charge, never establishing guarding position, but player B lowers his shoulder and rams player A over. It's almost always called as an offensive foul despite player A failing to establish guarding position. Without that leeway, you'd see more offensive players barreling over defenders.

You guys are looking at rules as black and white rules. The nature of the game proves otherwise.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:59 pm

RedDirtFan wrote:
Yes yes yes yes yes. There is leeway in basketball rules because of what happens on the floor in regard to the rules. Say player A slides under player B to try and draw a charge, never establishing guarding position, but player B lowers his shoulder and rams player A over. It's almost always called as an offensive foul despite player A failing to establish guarding position. Without that leeway, you'd see more offensive players barreling over defenders.

You guys are looking at rules as black and white rules. The nature of the game proves otherwise.


That made me laugh. Good come back.

Honestly, when breaking down plays like you mentioned above, it isn't that hard to call. If player A did not establish a defensive position, it is a block. Once position is established, it's torso past torso. Very simple. Here's my problem. Offensive players driving the lane, initiating the contact into a player who has established a legal defensive position and remains "vertical" during the blocking of a shot. The defensive player almost always gets called. Benefit of the doubt usually goes to the offensive player. I think defensive players have gotten much better with "verticality" and it just seems the offensive players get away with more out of control play. Just an opinion. I simply do not agree with your earlier statements concerning refs knowing players. In my opinion, it's just opposite. On this, we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Selection of Officials

Postby RedDirtFan » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:12 pm

classB4ever wrote:
RedDirtFan wrote:
Yes yes yes yes yes. There is leeway in basketball rules because of what happens on the floor in regard to the rules. Say player A slides under player B to try and draw a charge, never establishing guarding position, but player B lowers his shoulder and rams player A over. It's almost always called as an offensive foul despite player A failing to establish guarding position. Without that leeway, you'd see more offensive players barreling over defenders.

You guys are looking at rules as black and white rules. The nature of the game proves otherwise.


That made me laugh. Good come back.

Honestly, when breaking down plays like you mentioned above, it isn't that hard to call. If player A did not establish a defensive position, it is a block. Once position is established, it's torso past torso. Very simple. Here's my problem. Offensive players driving the lane, initiating the contact into a player who has established a legal defensive position and remains "vertical" during the blocking of a shot. The defensive player almost always gets called. Benefit of the doubt usually goes to the offensive player. I think defensive players have gotten much better with "verticality" and it just seems the offensive players get away with more out of control play. Just an opinion. I simply do not agree with your earlier statements concerning refs knowing players. In my opinion, it's just opposite. On this, we will just have to agree to disagree.


Let me word myself better in regard to the first scenario. If the defensive player is close to establishing guarding position, and does not make a dangerous play in trying to draw a charge (for an example of a dangerous play--sliding underneath a jumping offensive player. I worded it very poorly the first time, I never should have used the word slide when I meant something else), then it can be an offensive foul if the offensive player decides to do his best Mike Alsott impersonation and run over the defender.

I completely agree with you on your second point about verticality. I don't know if that's an actual rule at the HS level but most officials have adopted it because it makes sense.

The main point of my initial posts applies to that scenario, among others. Not all players are great at staying vertical and not jumping into the offensive player, but officials from that area learn to recognize those players that are and would be more likely to swallow their whistle unless they're absolutely positive that the defender jumped into the offensive player. Knowing the kids on the floor is a good thing for officiating in general.
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