How District 5 Screwed Watford City

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How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:08 pm

The BOD showed a glimpse of forward thought and moved the enrollment cutoff number to 400. This dropped Valley City to Class B status.

Valley City was assigned to District 5, which infuriated the Kool-Aid sippers in the district, and they organized an effort to amend the NDHSAA Constitution bylaws.

The bylaws were changed mandating that any two-division system the state employs must use 325 as the cutoff. The rationale was that the move "only affected one school" and played favorites to Valley City.

Enter Watford City.

Had the number been left alone, Watford City would have some extra time to prepare for A basketball. As it is, due to factors out of their control, they will be forced to A in two years.

It's interesting how the D5 head-hanchos, with hand over their heart looking back on 1976, were more forward-thinking in saying the move "only affected one school."

But, that's who we believe, isn't it?

Of course, it's not all the Sacred Soilers fault. They did, after all, give the BOD a way out (they left the power of creating a 3-division system with the BOD).

But, that slanted crystal ball that District 5 used to look forward was obviously cloudy. The Wolves have only the Sacred Soil to blame.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:41 pm

The 400 wouldn't have only affected one school. Wahp would have fallen under the cutoff very soon and St. Mary's and Shanley would have also been under it at the same time as VC. Would the two private schools have opted up? Possibly, but who knows. Whether its 325 or 400, Watford City has no choice but to get used to class A, because both of those numbers will be passed within a year or two of each other. What would an extra year or two to "prepare" going to do? They will take their lumps just like Beulah did 15 years ago and eventually learn how to compete.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:15 pm

Beulah learned to compete?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:40 pm

They qualified for state one of the last years they were A. I'd consider that competing. How many years were they in A? 4-5?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:29 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:They qualified for state one of the last years they were A. I'd consider that competing. How many years were they in A? 4-5?


1998-2006-ish

Beulah made State:
Girls: BB (2001), VB (2002), Golf (1998, 1999, 2001; All-State golfers in 98 & 99)
Boys: BB (2000), Golf (2004, 2005), Hockey - Still Class A; coop with Hazen (2001, 2002, 2004), Wrestling (2000, 2003)

Proof that Beulah did make it to state in sports while in Class A...just no state titles to show for it.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:43 pm

I thought they made it to state in boys bb, too. Maybe they were in the top half of the region, but got upset in the tournament instead?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:46 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I thought they made it to state in boys bb, too. Maybe they were in the top half of the region, but got upset in the tournament instead?


2000 they made it...fixed list above.

They were 5th in the WDA for 3 years and in their final year they were 4th but were beat out in the WDA tourney.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby The Schwab » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:08 pm

I understand where you are coming from with this, but don't expect me to feel sorry for the "Big B's" who have routinely dominated the "Small B's" in their region for years. Now they get a taste of their own medicine when they have to play Class A.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:13 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:I thought they made it to state in boys bb, too. Maybe they were in the top half of the region, but got upset in the tournament instead?


2000 they made it...fixed list above.

They were 5th in the WDA for 3 years and in their final year they were 4th but were beat out in the WDA tourney.


That looks like they competed quite well in class A...
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby gominers » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:53 pm

The Schwab wrote:I understand where you are coming from with this, but don't expect me to feel sorry for the "Big B's" who have routinely dominated the "Small B's" in their region for years. Now they get a taste of their own medicine when they have to play Class A.


Then don't expect me to feel sorry for the "small B's" that could have changed it.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:45 pm

Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.
Last edited by Bisonguy06 on Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Wildcat » Mon Dec 01, 2014 9:49 pm

heimer wrote:The BOD showed a glimpse of forward thought and moved the enrollment cutoff number to 400. This dropped Valley City to Class B status.

Valley City was assigned to District 5, which infuriated the Kool-Aid sippers in the district, and they organized an effort to amend the NDHSAA Constitution bylaws.

The bylaws were changed mandating that any two-division system the state employs must use 325 as the cutoff. The rationale was that the move "only affected one school" and played favorites to Valley City.

Enter Watford City.

Had the number been left alone, Watford City would have some extra time to prepare for A basketball. As it is, due to factors out of their control, they will be forced to A in two years.

It's interesting how the D5 head-hanchos, with hand over their heart looking back on 1976, were more forward-thinking in saying the move "only affected one school."

But, that's who we believe, isn't it?

Of course, it's not all the Sacred Soilers fault. They did, after all, give the BOD a way out (they left the power of creating a 3-division system with the BOD).

But, that slanted crystal ball that District 5 used to look forward was obviously cloudy. The Wolves have only the Sacred Soil to blame.



Wow, this is some serious butt hurt.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:07 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.


Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby winner-within » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:20 am

heimer wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.


Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.


so are you implying the State needs a class that nobody will care about out of resentment ??
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:24 am

heimer wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.


Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.


While I agree that private schools in the big cities enjoy extra benefits, you can't just put them up a division due to that reason alone. It would not stand up in court because anyone could argue that Surrey, DLB, Nedrose, South Prairie, Thompson, etc. should also be included in that group because they enjoy the same benefits.

I think the only way to develop a three class system would be to forgo the enrollment number and go with a set number of schools per division, modeled off the football plan. I'd go with 16 in AA and 20 in A and the list would look like this.

AA - WF, Davies, RR, South, North, GFC, Sheyenne, DL, Minot, Century, BHS, Legacy, Mandan, Williston, Dickinson, and Jamestown.

A - Wahp, Grafton, Shanley, Central Cass, Lisbon, Kindred, Hillsboro-CV, WC, Belcourt, St Marys, VC, Beulah, Stanley, Dickinson Trinity, DLB, Botno, Hazen, Carrington, Rugby, and Standing Rock.

Seems to have kind of a natural cutoff of similarly sized schools. If other schools grow to be in the second 20, the smallest school just goes back down to B and the same with moving from A to AA. Of course teams would not be required to fill their schedule with all teams in the same division, just play every team in their region at least once. Would allow teams like DL who might struggle at the top level to play Botno, Carrington, Belcourt, etc. Would also allow top teams in A to schedule and challenge any AA teams, etc.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:26 pm

Until we acknowledge that privates get a better kid by nature of them being private, we get nowhere. No defined district=middle division or above. That will stand up in court. They have different enrollment standards, as they have no district. Threaten to sue, then the NDHSAA should call their bluff, and we'll see you in court.

The NDHSAA is not mandatory in it's membership. A school can choose to not be a member. If the NDHSAA decides the privates are middle or above due to having no defined district, there is no legal basis to sue. The lawsuit talk was a scare tactic because the NDHSAA is scared of being sued. If they grew a pair (see Twas the Month Before Christmas), they win, and the privates can go run and hide behind the cross or create their own league. Otherwise, admit you get a better kid and play in the right circumstances.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:44 pm

Even if you want to go that way, bump the middle to 24 and include the rest of the private schools. Still makes a pretty similar group. I wouldn't go bigger than 24, though, as 12 in two regions would make good tourneys to send 4 each to state.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Sniper » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:41 pm

A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:
1. No matter how many divisions we have someone is still going to get the short end of the stick. Right now it is the class A schools that are too big for class B.

2. Every person who comes up with a three class plan is going to try to make it benefit their school, and we can not please every school.

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.

4. Private schools have an advantage over schools that are outside but close to the class a towns. Reason being if a private school only has 80 kid in their high school, I would bet 60-70 of them participate in athletics. In a class B town where you have 80 kids in the high school, about 40 of them participate in athletics. If a parent sends their kids to a private school it is mainly going to be because they want them to compete in sports but do not want them to have to go through the class A school system and possibly not make it or not be the stud. Sure some are there solely on the fact that they like the small school feel better. I do not believe the whole "better education in private schools" argument because in a bigger school you are going to have more course options to further a kids learning. Also I feel that the better teachers are going to want to go to a bigger school where they get paid more, because teachers make less money at private schools. I am not saying any of this is wrong, heck I would consider sending my kids to a private school based on these advantages.

5. Schools can still build great programs without high enrollment numbers. Example: North Star. Small school, not very close to any of the big class A towns, just a good athletics town. Of course it is a lot easier to build a program with large enrollment but it is not impossible to do it without high enrollment but it does take a little bit of luck.

I agree with Heimers middle class that he stated earlier and I am sure that the private school faithful are going to disagree with everything I have said. I also do not think a three class system is going to happen soon, or maybe even at all..
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:45 pm

heimer wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.


Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.


I have clearly, repeatedly agreed that the private schools have built-in advantages.

I have simply repeated what the NDHSAA has been given in terms of legal counsel regarding a weighted formula for private school enrollment (can't do it, wouldn't withstand a legal challenge).

Your beef is with that legal opinion, not with me. But that's the road block that this middle division plan faces.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:49 pm

Sniper wrote:A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.


I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:22 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:
heimer wrote:
Bisonguy06 wrote:Her is my prediction, mark it down. Watford City will be a larger school district than Valley City, Wahpeton, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Fargo Shanley when it enters class A athletics, and it will be approaching the size of Devils Lake and Turtle Mountain. We are supposed to feel sorry for Watford city and redraw the map when it will be larger than 4 to 6 schools when it enters the division?

I heard from a Watford City coach that they had 40 freshmen girls out for volleyball this year, and they had to cut 20 of them. Those participation numbers are unimaginable in a class B town, and are much more in line with class A. They will hold their own in just a matter of a few years.


Your prediction may very well serve to be accurate.

Nevertheless, it's clear that Watford City would fit BETTER in a middle division, as would the four-to-six schools it will be bigger than.

And your enrollment ranges (see earlier post) again protect a handful of privates that enjoy the fruits of large-town living at the small school level. Take the schools in your enrollment range and add every parochial that is in a Class A town, and you get to 16 or so pretty fast.

Central Cass
Grafton
Valley City
Wahpeton
Devils Lake
Shanley
St Marys
Watford City
Fargo Oak Grove
Minot Our Redeemers
Dickinson Trinity
Trinity Christian
Minot Ryan
Shiloh Christian
Beulah
Hazen

There's 16 pretty easy. And that doesn't include some of those aforementioned communities that are growing and on the cusp of moving up.

But no, protect those privates that love big-city life.....until tournament time. Great system.


I have clearly, repeatedly agreed that the private schools have built-in advantages.

I have simply repeated what the NDHSAA has been given in terms of legal counsel regarding a weighted formula for private school enrollment (can't do it, wouldn't withstand a legal challenge).

Your beef is with that legal opinion, not with me. But that's the road block that this middle division plan faces.


Weighted formula, yes. No defined boundaries, no. They tried a 1.4 multiplier. That wouldn't work. But a "no defined boundaries" argument would. They have received no legal opinion on that approach.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby EHS1998 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:49 pm

heimer wrote:Until we acknowledge that privates get a better kid by nature of them being private, we get nowhere. No defined district=middle division or above. That will stand up in court. They have different enrollment standards, as they have no district.


Without question, this is the best thing I have ever seen you write.

I have always wondered why people are so willing to accept private schools in large towns in Class B. In other states, they are their own class or grouped appropriately.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Sniper » Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:52 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
Sniper wrote:A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.


I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years


Do you think the fact that we have tournament regulars like the big class B schools and the private schools that are playing in it almost every year has something to do with it?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:09 pm

Sniper wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
Sniper wrote:A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.


I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years


Do you think the fact that we have tournament regulars like the big class B schools and the private schools that are playing in it almost every year has something to do with it?


To some extent, yes, but that was also happening in the 90s and early 00s as well. I think have both bball seasons in the winter has hurt it more than anything. The casual fan is just burnt out by the time the tourney roles around. Then with switching it with the girls tourney a few seasons ago hurt it even more yet.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:58 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
Sniper wrote:A few things to consider when talking about a three class system and who is placed in the middle class:

3. One of the main reasons people want to keep the two class system is because of how big an event the class b state tournament has become.


I actually think the popularity of the state B tourney has gone down in the last 10 years


I agree with this. North Dakotans have been migrating from rural areas to larger towns since, what, World War II? With every year that goes by, a larger percentage of North Dakotans live in class A towns with children attending class A schools. The state's class B population has steadily declined for generations, with the energy boom slowing that trend now in some places. The 'B' represents a smaller slice of North Dakota's population than it used to.

Arguments can be made in favor of a 3 class plan, but one that I'm not buying is the argument that a 3 class system will re-energize the small school state tournament. You can't grow interest in that tournament by subtracting more schools from the equation. Class B used to have over 200 schools competing. It's now just a shade over 100. Trim the largest schools off the top via a 3 class plan, and the smallest schools that may inevitably close their doors, and class B's slice of the pie will be even smaller. You'll see more empty seats and less media coverage.

Isn't it great, by the way, that we have at least a few class B schools being added to the map again? Alexander will field volleyball and basketball programs next year. Nedrose and South Prairie are on the way as well.

The 'B' tournament is great, but it is not THE event that it used to be. And that's OK. It still serves the 'B' population quite well.
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