How District 5 Screwed Watford City

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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:04 pm

We don't like the big towns at the B, you say? Well where do we draw that line? DLB, Surrey, South Prairie and Nedrose are basically suburban Minot. Casselton, Kindred and Thompson are a few more bedroom communities out east. Dickinson is growing into South Heart's school districts. Where does it end? Exactly how rural do you have to be to be "B"?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby justplayalready » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:12 pm

I will still stand by my belief that it is broken and its due to a disproportionate amount of appearances by schools with competitive advantages. I will also stand by my belief that schools should not be classed using enrollment numbers only.

Yes there was a good turn out, yes the games were good. But it was a bit of a perfect storm for those attendance numbers...putting the boys b back where it should be made a huge difference in getting the parade kids...I dont think there are two others school's that travels fan base wise like the two we saw sat night either...

The biggest thing Ill say is the hsaa failed miserably swaping the tournies...im sure they will be a bit more gunshy in making future changes...I just dont have much confidence in what they may try next, so id guess nothing will change in the near future. .
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Sportsrube » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:17 pm

The way I see it, there are basically only two ways to make people happy about the perceived "problems" in Class B.
#1 - make all private schools compete at the Class A level in every extra-curricular. (Except FB which has
four classes.)
#2 - either create a middle class for the small A's and large B's, or let the small A's move down to Class B.

You may get a lot of support for #1, but you will get very little support for #2 in my opinion.
The landscape may change some in the next few years with Watford City moving up and who knows how many more co-ops we will see, but in my opinion Class B will not have many major changes for quite a while. I agree with Bisonguy06 about the large number of Class B's that are not rural and being rural should not be a qualification for being Class B.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:19 pm

To be clear, I have no beef whatsoever with Rugby winning in B. They have been firmly within class B for 25 years and aren't all that big, as you say. Anyone complaining about their success is really grasping at straws.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby HammerTime » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:03 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:I'll give you Shiloh, Ryan, Trinity and Oak Grove being a 'problem' if you're a fan of the traditional 'B.' But you don't reinvent the wheel for four schools. Nobody has beef with Our Redeemer's and Williston Trinity right now. Nobody seems to have a beef with passive recruiting when those kids transfer to public schools, either. And literally no one in North Dakota has ever said, "Rugby is proof that we need a three class system." It's not OK for Shiloh Christian to send both its boys and girls to state in the same year, but it's awesome that Parshall and LaMoure did the same thing. Complaints about the 'B' boil down to FOUR PRIVATE SCHOOLS. If you drew up a plan for four schools to play for their own trophy, it would probably be pretty popular. Run with that idea.

We supposedly have this group of big Bs that are ready to join the parochials and move up and form the middle class in a 3 class or hybrid system. Well let's look at the field this year. I'm going to give you seven of the biggest B's in the state, and let's see if they robbed a bunch of small schools from state tournament appearances.

Watford City, Central Cass, Grafton, Beulah, Lisbon, Stanley, and Kindred. They're all big B's. They all play AA football. Guess what else these schools have in common?

None of their boys teams made the state tournament this year
None of their girls volleyball teams made the state tournament this year (fall of 2014)
The Kindred girls basketball team made state and took 2nd place.
This group batted 1 for 21 in state tourney appearances this year.

Let's throw in four more of the biggest B's: Rugby, Carrington, Bottineau, Des Lacs-Burlington. Rugby went 1 for 3 in state tourney appearances with a home run at 'the B.' The other three schools struck out.


11 of the biggest 'B' schools combined to go 2 for 33 in state tournament appearances this year. Two for thirty three! We want to move them up and out of B... why?

Another thing is, look at the past. I'll be straight up honest, I might be moving the goal posts a bit here, so read at your own risk. But this is important. Remember that whatever we propose would still affect almost every other activity that the NDHSAA sponsors including the ones that don't get the fan support that basketball gets, like speech, one-act, track, and golf, and wrestling.

Dickinson Trinity, Carrington, Kindred, Grafton, Lisbon, and Central Cass each had one runner in the 2014 boys 100 meter dash final. 6 of 8 spots to big Bs. For team rankings, Kindred took the top spot, Carrington, Rugby, Grafton, and Shiloh Christian all joined Kindred in the top 10. For 14 schools to take half of the top 10 spots is a bit of a big deal.
In Girls' Track, Carrington, Watford City, Central Cass, Kindred, Lisbon, and Dickinson Trinity dominated the top 10 team spots.
5 of the top 10 teams in Boys' Golf last year were of your big 14: Dickinson Trinity, Central Cass, Oak Grove, Rugby, and Beulah. The Medalist was from Rugby, just to hammer the point home.

In terms of fine arts, 6 of the fourteen state titlists in speech were from your big 14.
Kindred, Lisbon, Rugby, Carrington, Beulah, Central Cass, and Shiloh Christian, all of which which are of the group you said, went to state One-Act this year. Assuming that the 14 schools you mentioned are the "problem schools" that we bash on this site, putting 7 of them there is actually way out of proportion, especially when you consider that there are between 80-90 other class B teams.

Then, last year's state boys tournament field had Rugby, Shiloh, Oak Grove and Beulah and was won by Oak Grove.
In girls, well, the Bishop Ryan three-peat speaks for itself. The last 5, that's right, FIVE, state champions have been of your big 14. That's not even counting the other members of the field.

You can throw your stats in my face all you want, but I'll throw some back at you. There are a disproportionate amount of appearances in state events that go in favor of the big Bs. Some will say that the kids work harder and the students in smaller towns should work harder if they want to compete. Those who say that should remember that we are a farming state and a large number of kids in small schools don't have the time to invest in school sports. And then we run into the "participation trophy" problem. I don't support giving everyone who shows up a trophy. That's not right. I don't like that big towns get a competitive advantage.
One solution that I know has been brought up on this site a couple of times is merging the South Dakota and North Dakota High School Leagues. And it's not a bad idea. While it would probably mean switching to a three class system in favor of SD's plan, it's not a bad idea. Maybe the travel might get a bit out of hand, but Class A teams make trips across the state once or twice a year already. And who knows, it might bring on board more fans of North Dakota sports. Because it combines the state tournaments of two of the most rural states in the country, more college scouts might show up and it could help raise awareness of a rising star in the Dakotas.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Wildcat » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:50 pm

Can we please stop talking about the incredible pipe dream that is merging tournaments with South Dakota?

They would never consider this in a million years. They have small issues like this, but they're not about to hand over their state's athletic identity to merge with someone from the north. This will never happen...EVER. It makes what happens in each state more insignificant, and we're already to the point where everyone needs instant gratification (like a state tournament) or they collapse in shame.

This is high school sports...not the NAIA.

That being said, this is a fun topic to read about. Some very valid arguments. The less mainstream the activity (fine arts, etc...) the more big schools will dominate. That's a numbers game...and unless you have an amazing 40-point athlete, track and field is a numbers game. It always has been. I don't need to hear about the exceptions...big schools will always have the leg up on track and field, just like the biggest Class A schools do in swimming.

1) Private schools should be in a class of their own...if it was feasible. It is not, because there are private schools that are small and big, and there just aren't enough of them. I like the point that was made earlier. No one seems to be complaining about Our Redeemer's or Trinity Christian. Private schools are OK to Class B folks, as long as they're not winning. Let's remember that Mike Dwyer (Shiloh), Gregg Grinsteinner (DT), Kyle Card (OG) and the coach that was there for a long time before him...there hasn't been constant turnover there. Their kids know the system from the bottom all the way to the top. All high schools need to do a better job of keeping successful coaches around. That's a big part of it.

2) Some version of a three-class system is inevitable. Why? Because this is the way the country is going. South Dakota has a three-class system in basketball, and a seven-class system in football (four 11-man, 3 9-man classes). It's what's coming. People want more trophies. It's how it is. It costs more now to stay involved than it ever did, and more people want faster results, regardless of whether it's deserved.

3) The point was made earlier about not being satisfied, even with a 3-class system. Carrington is considered a big school...they have 170 kids. There used to be 6-7 schools running around the 260-280 mark. Carrington isn't even close to that, yet they're painted as an evil big school. Tioga by itself is 122 kids and growing. Schools that were once thought so big are getting smaller and small schools are getting bigger. Most of that is synonymous with athletic success. If you chop it down and make all schools inside 150 belong to the bottom class, it will become evil Killdeer (with its 143 students) beating up on all the small schools. If only Killdeer would give everybody else a chance...
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby HammerTime » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:28 am

Wildcat wrote:Can we please stop talking about the incredible pipe dream that is merging tournaments with South Dakota?

They would never consider this in a million years. They have small issues like this, but they're not about to hand over their state's athletic identity to merge with someone from the north. This will never happen...EVER. It makes what happens in each state more insignificant, and we're already to the point where everyone needs instant gratification (like a state tournament) or they collapse in shame.

This is high school sports...not the NAIA.

That being said, this is a fun topic to read about. Some very valid arguments. The less mainstream the activity (fine arts, etc...) the more big schools will dominate. That's a numbers game...and unless you have an amazing 40-point athlete, track and field is a numbers game. It always has been. I don't need to hear about the exceptions...big schools will always have the leg up on track and field, just like the biggest Class A schools do in swimming.

1) Private schools should be in a class of their own...if it was feasible. It is not, because there are private schools that are small and big, and there just aren't enough of them. I like the point that was made earlier. No one seems to be complaining about Our Redeemer's or Trinity Christian. Private schools are OK to Class B folks, as long as they're not winning. Let's remember that Mike Dwyer (Shiloh), Gregg Grinsteinner (DT), Kyle Card (OG) and the coach that was there for a long time before him...there hasn't been constant turnover there. Their kids know the system from the bottom all the way to the top. All high schools need to do a better job of keeping successful coaches around. That's a big part of it.

2) Some version of a three-class system is inevitable. Why? Because this is the way the country is going. South Dakota has a three-class system in basketball, and a seven-class system in football (four 11-man, 3 9-man classes). It's what's coming. People want more trophies. It's how it is. It costs more now to stay involved than it ever did, and more people want faster results, regardless of whether it's deserved.

3) The point was made earlier about not being satisfied, even with a 3-class system. Carrington is considered a big school...they have 170 kids. There used to be 6-7 schools running around the 260-280 mark. Carrington isn't even close to that, yet they're painted as an evil big school. Tioga by itself is 122 kids and growing. Schools that were once thought so big are getting smaller and small schools are getting bigger. Most of that is synonymous with athletic success. If you chop it down and make all schools inside 150 belong to the bottom class, it will become evil Killdeer (with its 143 students) beating up on all the small schools. If only Killdeer would give everybody else a chance...

I honestly agree with most of your statements. My only question is why people still hate the idea of a three class system. The only defense is that it would make smaller schools the bad guys and the idea of the mystical "state B."
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:22 am

HammerTime: that was a good response. You did quite a bit of research, stayed pretty close to the topic, and didn't make it a personal attack. Love the name, by the way. I'd say that the goalposts have moved when we're going to track, golf and speech, though. Team-based success in track has a whole lot to do with participation numbers. No way around it, no way to 'fix' it in an imperfect world. Big schools are favored. Golf success may have a whole lot to do with proximity to a good course and instructor, and these are things you'll only find in a larger community.

If we stick to hoops, there's no question that my big 15 have had some success. Smaller schools haven't been entirely squeezed out though, not by a long shot. On the boys side, look at your state championship games since 2001 and you will find a small to medium sized public school playing in the state championship game 14 of the last 15 years since 2001. In 2013, the top four were all small public schools.

In GBB, the Ryan and Shiloh girls have flexed their muscles. Remove just those two schools from the equation and I think everyone would be content with the status quo. For every Central Cass and Carrington, there has been a Beach and a Kidder County cutting down nets. Both parochials should drop back closer to the middle of the pack next year.

You can find 5-7 basketball players in a small school. An as others are pointing out, Rugby and Carrington aren't all that "big." Neither are those four parochials.

I've consistently made a numbers-based claim that we don't have enough of a 'middle' for three classes in ND. I contend that you need at least 16 schools (8 west, 8 east) to make your middle class. You won't find 16 schools with enrollments between 200 & 650 in our state. Take the range of 250-850 and you'll come up short of 16, too. Schools are constantly growing and shrinking. Maybe someday we'll have a clear 'middle' with some depth. Right now, we don't.

Finally, I just really struggle with the reality that everybody is thrilled for the kids at Milnor when they win state, but when Beulah or Central Cass or Ryan win state, we cancel the celebration for those kids and cry foul. Rugby hadn't won a title since 1962, and we've got people here raining on their parade. Guess what, folks. The bigger schools will win more often in any system. The Minot High boys won this year. Good for them.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:08 am

Run this simple test: if you brought a basketball fan from far away to Bismarck this weekend, what would he have said about the event? The guy knows nothing about enrollment, tradition, private/public, home-grown talent vs transfers, ect... All he knows is that orange and black won the title. I think he would've said that this was a great event, and I think you'd have a heck of a time trying to convince him otherwise.

I think Bismarck and the Events Center had a whole lot to do with the success of the B. I'm all for locking in the boys B and the Super A in Bismarck. Put hockey in Grand Forks, football in Fargo, and track in Bismarck. Maybe volleyball, wrestling, and B girls basketball can rotate. The Betty Engelstad arena and NDSU's renovated basketball arena (when completed) can join the conversation, depending on the tourney.

My mother, bless her heart, knows nothing about basketball except that it doesn't look right in a dome. Players and spectators will gladly travel to be in the best facility. We can lock some of these tournaments in. Agree?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:36 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:Run this simple test: if you brought a basketball fan from far away to Bismarck this weekend, what would he have said about the event? The guy knows nothing about enrollment, tradition, private/public, home-grown talent vs transfers, ect... All he knows is that orange and black won the title. I think he would've said that this was a great event, and I think you'd have a heck of a time trying to convince him otherwise.

I think Bismarck and the Events Center had a whole lot to do with the success of the B. I'm all for locking in the boys B and the Super A in Bismarck. Put hockey in Grand Forks, football in Fargo, and track in Bismarck. Maybe volleyball, wrestling, and B girls basketball can rotate. The Betty Engelstad arena and NDSU's renovated basketball arena (when completed) can join the conversation, depending on the tourney.

My mother, bless her heart, knows nothing about basketball except that it doesn't look right in a dome. Players and spectators will gladly travel to be in the best facility. We can lock some of these tournaments in. Agree?


I agree as well. I'd say put the girls B in Minot, volleyball in Jamestown, and wrestling in Fargo.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:55 am

There is something I think most of us can agree on - the placement of State Tournaments - Bisonguy06 and ndlionsfan are right on: State Class B Boys and Super A at the Bismarck Events Center, State Class B Girls in Minot at the Dome, Volleyball in Jamestown, Hockey in Grand Forks, Wrestling in Fargo and Track in Bismarck. Then these venues can focus on their respective tournaments and make them better. Unfortunately I think it makes to much sense for the NDHSAA to go for it.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:36 am

Sportsrube wrote:There is something I think most of us can agree on - the placement of State Tournaments - Bisonguy06 and ndlionsfan are right on: State Class B Boys and Super A at the Bismarck Events Center, State Class B Girls in Minot at the Dome, Volleyball in Jamestown, Hockey in Grand Forks, Wrestling in Fargo and Track in Bismarck. Then these venues can focus on their respective tournaments and make them better. Unfortunately I think it makes to much sense for the NDHSAA to go for it.


I would agree on Rotating the Boys/Girls B's between Bismarck and Minot...Bismarck was a good B Bball venue...not perfect. Minot is a good B Ball venue...not perfect.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:50 am

I did check the NDHSAA approved sites page...Am I correct that Fargo and GF have been removed as Boys B sites until Fargo in 20-21??? This change recently happened???

http://www.ndhsaa.com/calendar/tourname ... s/approved
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Sportsrube » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:32 am

I hope that change is for real. Fargo and GF do not have very good facilities for hosting BB tournaments.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby siouxforever7 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:50 am

Sportsrube wrote:I hope that change is for real. Fargo and GF do not have very good facilities for hosting BB tournaments.

What would really be something is if the B could use Ralph Engelstad Arena as a host site. Beautiful facility and it has been used for UND-NDSU basketball games before. They put mats over the ice and the basketball floor on top and then put chair, risers etc. over the rest of the empty floor. As far as sight lines, comfort, and the overall 'fan experience' go, I really think this would make for a great tournament experience.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:31 pm

justplayalready wrote:I did check the NDHSAA approved sites page...Am I correct that Fargo and GF have been removed as Boys B sites until Fargo in 20-21??? This change recently happened???

http://www.ndhsaa.com/calendar/tourname ... s/approved


Been that way for a few months on the site
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:46 pm

Bisonguy, I was going to refrain from calling you out on this thread, but you forced my hand by endorsing the ridiculous "1962" narrative the NDHSAA pumped this weekend.

There's a good reason why Rugby hasn't won a B title since 62. They were flippin' Class A till 1991.

It's called the North Star, and it's a pain in the a$$ of everyone of you who continue to embrace this "one format, forever and ever, amen, kool-aid koombyeya" theory of basketball.

When the North Star was around, B was at it's best. Ask anyone who's lived through it. Most everyone will tell you the two-division era peaked in the mid-to-late 80's.

Why? Because it fell apart alongside the collapse of the North Star, just 24 years ago.

Talk about moving the goalposts, you act like Rubgy has been languishing under the lash of B failure for 50 years.

That's because when you add a smidge of honesty, like Rugby was Class A till 24 years ago, the shine comes off of this last week's penny just a little bit.

Rugby is not Milnor. New England was Milnor.

Optimist viewpoint of this weekend: Boys is back to its rightful weekend, great field, 11k fans on title night in the right building. All is good with B again. (Bisonguy)

Realist view: Right weekend, big crowd, a field we can live with, good tournament, same system.

Pessimist view: Field included 2 privates, a former A, an all-too-familiar B, and four teams that freshen it up. The former A won it in the same year that the privates won four of six games and a private won a girls tournament.

You have one night of evidence to submit to the court. 11k fans. I have volumes (privates, girls, North Star). When a side is light on evidence, they begin to look for prop pieces like "first title since 62" while ignoring the obvious reason why.

Great tournament, same broken system. And nothing I've written moves the goalposts.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:50 pm

Just a question, but I thought Rugby had moved to Class B quite a while before the Northstar Conference ended. I was thinking mid-80s, but could be wrong. Can anyone verify exactly when Rugby left Class A?
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:54 pm

heimer wrote:
Rugby is not Milnor. New England was Milnor.



I agree, but Parshall and LLM were also Milnor.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:55 pm

Even if it was the mid-80's, it's a difference of 5-7 years. That's still not 50+ years of waiting.

Unless, of course, you're willing to blame the current system we have for forcing Rugby to play all those years at the Class A level instead of a class they could have won a title in.

(take the bait....take it.....take it.....)
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:18 pm

The last few posts got my wheels turning so I went back to the topic that has all the state champions/participants listed and dug up some figures. I went back to 1970 and calculated the number of "big" Bs and private schools in the state tournament for each decade.

1970s - 12 bigs for 15% of tourney participants, 0 private school for 0%
1980s - 21 bigs for 26%, 1 private schools (OG in 86) for 1%
1990s - 25 bigs for 31%, 5 privates for 6%
2000s - 29 bigs for 36%, 22 privates for 28%
2010s - 23 bigs out of 48 total for 48%, 11 privates for 23%

I was actually surprised. I went in with the thought that "we have never had a state tournament with 8 small schools" when actually there were quite a few in the 70s and 80s, but rarely has happened since. Also, obviously I don't have enrollment figures for the schools way back when but I just took an educated guess and the larger enrollments and some schools that counted as "bigs" back in the 70s and 80s were not counted as "bigs" in the 2000s due to declining enrollments and such. It's not scientific by all means, but is some pretty good data. I have an open mind and really don't care if we go three classes or stay two, so its all objective.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby justplayalready » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:30 pm

what did we use to define the "big B's"...what % of the total B's do the bigs make up???
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:47 pm

Heimer - I've certainly promoted the optimist's view of this weekend to try to balance a thread you titled "How District 5 Screwed Watford City" that is extremely pessimistic in its origin.

But, I love what you typed up for the "realist." Realist view: Right weekend, big crowd, a field we can live with, good tournament, same system. That's exactly where I'm at. Carry on with your alternatives to that viewpoint.

Would also like to hear what you think about permanent host sites, but the floor is yours.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:55 pm

I have five minutes before I'm on the air.

So, last thing first:

Bismarck--B boys every year, period.

We can talk about the rest later. If there was any evidence about anything to be gleaned by this past weekend, it's that B boys belongs in Bismarck.
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Re: How District 5 Screwed Watford City

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:03 pm

justplayalready wrote:what did we use to define the "big B's"...what % of the total B's do the bigs make up???


I was looking at enrollment of about 175-200 and up. Like I said I have no actual enrollment figures, just guessing and it was harder to do for the schools back in the 70s/80s as I grew up in the 90s. Basically kind of figured if they used to be Class A (Larimore, Langdon, Hettinger, etc.) back at that time they were probably "big" Bs but when we got to the 2000s some of the schools may not be considered "big" Bs in my count (Hettinger, Hillsboro, etc.) Off hand, I do not know what the total % of the Bs that the "big" Bs make up but I believe that was figured out in a previous topic at some point.
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