Mr. Basketball - 2014

Class B Boys
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:23 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:For the most part, shooting not cool these days. Kids are much more athletic and play at the rim and that's what coaches recruit. Force them to play 15 feet out and their shots are horrible. Very few pure shooters around now days. Boschee was a stud and did a lot of great things at Kansas. Probably the best player to come out of ND. But the game has changed a lot even in 10 short years and I doubt a top program out of the "big six" conferences would recruit him today. He could definitely lead a mid major powerhouse or a middle of the pack team in one of the big sixes, though.

Shooting, especially 3 pointers, is at an all time premium now. If you look at the 10 current Big 12 teams they have increased their 3 FGA from 13.7/game in 01-02 to 18.4 3 FGA this season. Coaches have figured out that 3 pointers can be a very efficient shot. There are very few Hinsas out there bleeding the shot clock trying to find that open 15 footer. In the last ten years the average NBA team has increased their number of 3 FGAs from 15/game to over 21/game.

*I had some free time on my hands today.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:26 pm

ok attempts may be up, but are percentages? I would be very surprised if they were
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Flip » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:45 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:ok attempts may be up, but are percentages? I would be very surprised if they were

I figured out too, for the Big 12 teams. I left that sheet at school, but the percentages were similar. 3 pt attempts up because coaches know it makes their teams better. I'm not saying a team should shoot all 3 pointers.

It isn't just basketball either. Coaches are beginning to go for it more on 4th down. Managers are starting to bat their best hitters 2nd and not 3rd.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby The Schwab » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:50 pm

Flip wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:ok attempts may be up, but are percentages? I would be very surprised if they were

I figured out too, for the Big 12 teams. I left that sheet at school, but the percentages were similar. 3 pt attempts up because coaches know it makes their teams better. I'm not saying a team should shoot all 3 pointers.

It isn't just basketball either. Coaches are beginning to go for it more on 4th down. Managers are starting to bat their best hitters 2nd and not 3rd.


That's a whole different idea totally haha! I'm part of the group that thinks you bat your best hitter lead off!
The Schwab
User avatar
The Schwab
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4327
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:38 am
Location: The Peace Garden State

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:42 pm

a 3 pointer becoming efficient sounds like a stretch but it can be effective ....there are 90 some teams in the NCAA casting up 20 or more threes a game and only around 10 or so are in the big dance...so its either part of the game because you have true shooters or it can be your gunslingers are outta control.
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby noles4ever » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:19 pm

Said by a guy that has Larry Bird as his avatar????;)
noles4ever
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:46 pm

point being?
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby noles4ever » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:35 pm

Hypocrisy much, and I am saying this all in good fun, but you are questioning the effectiveness of the 3 point shot while displaying THE king of the 3 pointer as your avatar :lol: :oops: :shock:
noles4ever
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby east sider » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:32 pm

Flip wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:For the most part, shooting not cool these days. Kids are much more athletic and play at the rim and that's what coaches recruit. Force them to play 15 feet out and their shots are horrible. Very few pure shooters around now days. Boschee was a stud and did a lot of great things at Kansas. Probably the best player to come out of ND. But the game has changed a lot even in 10 short years and I doubt a top program out of the "big six" conferences would recruit him today. He could definitely lead a mid major powerhouse or a middle of the pack team in one of the big sixes, though.

Shooting, especially 3 pointers, is at an all time premium now. If you look at the 10 current Big 12 teams they have increased their 3 FGA from 13.7/game in 01-02 to 18.4 3 FGA this season. Coaches have figured out that 3 pointers can be a very efficient shot. There are very few Hinsas out there bleeding the shot clock trying to find that open 15 footer. In the last ten years the average NBA team has increased their number of 3 FGAs from 15/game to over 21/game.

*I had some free time on my hands today.


I actually think shooting has improved and declined, if that makes sense. The role players like a Ray Allen and Korver are as good a shooter as you will find in any era, but then you get the superstars today who are so athletic they are able to create their own shot whenever they want but they aren't necessarily good at them. I look at Russ Smith, one of the top players in college, yet I would never call him a good shot. LeBron took years before he developed a decent midrange game. Reference the 2004 Olympic team for more examples and you pretty much get the picture.

In regards to Kretchman, this is why I would be surprised if he wasn't recruited solely for his pure, quick shot. He can really score from anywhere and his jumpshot is so high that he's as effective as a 6' 2" player. He might have the best midrange jumper I've ever seen in ND. If he learns the running tear drop, and to find the open guy quickly when the help defense comes at him WATCH OUT, this kid will be very tough to stop. Of course I can't comment on how good he is at defense, we'll find out soon because he will have some tough tests coming up in college. At least he chose a school on the border so we can watch him play in college!
east sider
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:38 pm

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby winner-within » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:11 am

noles4ever wrote:Hypocrisy much, and I am saying this all in good fun, but you are questioning the effectiveness of the 3 point shot while displaying THE king of the 3 pointer as your avatar :lol: :oops: :shock:


like I said before, it CAN be effective, I question the theory of it being an efficient shot.....with that said if Larry Bird or Doug McDermott said "hey winner, I'm open here for a deep three" I would pass them the ball.... :)
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Hinsa » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:17 pm

Flip wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:For the most part, shooting not cool these days. Kids are much more athletic and play at the rim and that's what coaches recruit. Force them to play 15 feet out and their shots are horrible. Very few pure shooters around now days. Boschee was a stud and did a lot of great things at Kansas. Probably the best player to come out of ND. But the game has changed a lot even in 10 short years and I doubt a top program out of the "big six" conferences would recruit him today. He could definitely lead a mid major powerhouse or a middle of the pack team in one of the big sixes, though.

Shooting, especially 3 pointers, is at an all time premium now. If you look at the 10 current Big 12 teams they have increased their 3 FGA from 13.7/game in 01-02 to 18.4 3 FGA this season. Coaches have figured out that 3 pointers can be a very efficient shot. There are very few Hinsas out there bleeding the shot clock trying to find that open 15 footer. In the last ten years the average NBA team has increased their number of 3 FGAs from 15/game to over 21/game.

*I had some free time on my hands today.

Why the shot at our offensive strategy, Flip? We only had one person who could come close to making 1 out of every 3 threes which is what you need to equal 50% on 2s. Only had one other person who could even shoot the 3. So we looked for 2s because that was our shooting range.

Maybe if more bad 3pt shooting teams would look for 2s instead of continuing to hike up 3s they can't make they might actually get a little better. I saw so many teams this year that were 0-7, 1-10, 2-11 from 3pt range but they would continue to heave it up there.
Twins and Vikings Forever!
User avatar
Hinsa
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2028
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:53 am
Location: THE Red River Valley Conference

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:59 pm

Hinsa wrote:Why the shot at our offensive strategy, Flip?

I honestly don't know a whole about your team, so in no way was I taking a shot at them. I think I saw your team play two games this year and I was actually very surprised at the pace you play. My comments were poking a little fun at the comments you've made in the past about 3 pointers and mid range jumpers.

We only had one person who could come close to making 1 out of every 3 threes which is what you need to equal 50% on 2s. Only had one other person who could even shoot the 3. So we looked for 2s because that was our shooting range.

Did you actually shoot 50% from 2? We shot 28% from 3 and 42% from 2 so per shot our expected value was almost identical. I understand you have a greater chance of getting fouled shooting 2s, so there is that bonus. There is a good balance for every team depending on the skill level of the players.
I saw so many teams this year that were 0-7, 1-10, 2-11 from 3pt range...

You looking at my teams stats?
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Indy5 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:57 pm

As for players getting better and us not really being able to tell, I have one example. I watched the 30 for 30 on the big east and was amazed at the play in the 80s. I saw so many bigs catch it down low and just lay it in. Those are all dunks today. Anytime I see old tape I "wow these guys are nowhere near as athletic as today's guys."

As for 3s, the college game is basically all 3s or playing at the rim. I blame this on the short three point line. It's tough to find much in between with all those athletes. Plus the 3 point line is so close, you might as well shoot that instead of a 2. I'm sure attempts have gone up, but I also agree you don't see the same quality of shooters today. Incredibly rare to see a guy that can drive and shoot. Seems like now you're one or the other. I think a big reason is guys leaving so early. That has hurt the college game hugely. No time for development.
User avatar
Indy5
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:21 pm
Location: Northwest ND

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:16 pm

Basically agree with everything Indy said. I wish they would move the college line back to at minimum 22 feet.
Flip
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 5062
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Hinsa » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:52 pm

Flip wrote:
Hinsa wrote:Why the shot at our offensive strategy, Flip?

I honestly don't know a whole about your team, so in no way was I taking a shot at them. I think I saw your team play two games this year and I was actually very surprised at the pace you play. My comments were poking a little fun at the comments you've made in the past about 3 pointers and mid range jumpers.

We only had one person who could come close to making 1 out of every 3 threes which is what you need to equal 50% on 2s. Only had one other person who could even shoot the 3. So we looked for 2s because that was our shooting range.

Did you actually shoot 50% from 2? We shot 28% from 3 and 42% from 2 so per shot our expected value was almost identical. I understand you have a greater chance of getting fouled shooting 2s, so there is that bonus. There is a good balance for every team depending on the skill level of the players.
I saw so many teams this year that were 0-7, 1-10, 2-11 from 3pt range...

You looking at my teams stats?

OK, no sweat Flip. Yes, I'm a diehard when it comes to midrange jumpers. I just think it is part of the game that is ignored by teams who don't have the shooters for the 3-ball.

Nah, we didn't shoot 50% from 2. It's just an easy number to use to compare the value of 3s vs. 2s.

And nope, didn't look at your team's stats, they are numbers from teams we played this year. They kept on shooting 3s so we said "Thank you very much" and grabbed the rebound and off we went.
Twins and Vikings Forever!
User avatar
Hinsa
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2028
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:53 am
Location: THE Red River Valley Conference

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby winner-within » Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:38 pm

Indy5 wrote:As for players getting better and us not really being able to tell, I have one example. I watched the 30 for 30 on the big east and was amazed at the play in the 80s. I saw so many bigs catch it down low and just lay it in. Those are all dunks today. Anytime I see old tape I "wow these guys are nowhere near as athletic as today's guys."

As for 3s, the college game is basically all 3s or playing at the rim. I blame this on the short three point line. It's tough to find much in between with all those athletes. Plus the 3 point line is so close, you might as well shoot that instead of a 2. I'm sure attempts have gone up, but I also agree you don't see the same quality of shooters today. Incredibly rare to see a guy that can drive and shoot. Seems like now you're one or the other. I think a big reason is guys leaving so early. That has hurt the college game hugely. No time for development.



That big east 30 for 30 was awesome......I think there are more athletes because of innovative training techniques that are available that didn’t exist or weren’t believed in 30 years ago it may make it easy to say that today’s players are much more gifted than players of the past...

with that said....the European players who are generally less athletic have better skill sets I think also..
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby digger » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:16 pm

The Big East 30 for 30 was great, brought back some good hoops memories. Just reading through the thread and throwing a few cents into the Kretchman/Boschee discussion.

Someone said it earlier, Boschee was a generational type player. A four year starter at Kansas, led them in minutes played (or very close) every year. Played with Hinrich, Collison, Gooden, who all have had very good NBA careers. Played against NBA caliber players, from day one he was never out of place on the court, he belonged. I used to travel for work some back then and tried to arrange KC stops around Jayhawks games in Lawrence, it was great to see a ND kid playing in Allen Fieldhouse. Might be a bit of old guy sentimentalism, but tough to top Boschee in my mind. I do think his skill level and talent would translate to todays game at that level.

I live in the east so I've had the pleasure of watching Kretchman many times over the past two years, he is a great player. Great shooter, ball handler, court presence, having both the 3-ball and a beautiful mid-range game is key, he raised his ability to finish at the hoop this year. A great basketball mind and awareness, he sees the court the way few players do. If you love basketball he's a joy to watch. Playing at the next level is as much about a program's need and style of play as anything. Scholarships have to match the program need by position. Skillset has to match the DNA of the program. MSUM is perimeter oriented, Walthal is building a very good program there with a lot of regional players, a great fit.
digger
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:16 am

Re: Mr. Basketball - 2014

Postby Indy5 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:28 pm

winner-within wrote:
Indy5 wrote:As for players getting better and us not really being able to tell, I have one example. I watched the 30 for 30 on the big east and was amazed at the play in the 80s. I saw so many bigs catch it down low and just lay it in. Those are all dunks today. Anytime I see old tape I "wow these guys are nowhere near as athletic as today's guys."

As for 3s, the college game is basically all 3s or playing at the rim. I blame this on the short three point line. It's tough to find much in between with all those athletes. Plus the 3 point line is so close, you might as well shoot that instead of a 2. I'm sure attempts have gone up, but I also agree you don't see the same quality of shooters today. Incredibly rare to see a guy that can drive and shoot. Seems like now you're one or the other. I think a big reason is guys leaving so early. That has hurt the college game hugely. No time for development.



That big east 30 for 30 was awesome......I think there are more athletes because of innovative training techniques that are available that didn’t exist or weren’t believed in 30 years ago it may make it easy to say that today’s players are much more gifted than players of the past...

with that said....the European players who are generally less athletic have better skill sets I think also..

Agree with everything here
User avatar
Indy5
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2344
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:21 pm
Location: Northwest ND

Previous

Return to Boys

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests