Best player in region 1?

Class B Boys
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Best player in region 1?

Postby TheOneTheOnly » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:19 pm

Best overall player who you picking?
TheOneTheOnly
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:42 pm

I'll just list the Top Players in Region 1 (listed by team; some comments - IMO)

Milnor
Briton Bussman - probably best all-around; PG with some size, can rebound well.
Wyatt Mund - 3rd best in region; post with great athletic ability.

Oak Grove
Carter Kretchman - 2nd best all-around; PG that lacks size, but man can he shoot.
Christian Adams - 4th best in region; very athletic guard, great shooter.
Nick Card

Enderlin
Daniel Lindgren
Graham Hurlburt

Central Cass - 4 equal players that have their own strengths.
Tommy Voss
Grady Bresnahan
Connor Rienets
Adam Breske

Maple Valley
James Richman

Fairmount/CT
D'Angelo Burns

Kindred
Eric Bachmeier
Fletcher Andel

Sargent Central
Devin Arp

North Sargent
Dawson Peterson

Richland
Matt Workin

Northern Cass
Cody Springer
Run4Fun2009
NDPreps The King
 
Posts: 15876
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:06 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby timberwolf » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:59 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:I'll just list the Top Players in Region 1 (listed by team; some comments - IMO)

Milnor
Briton Bussman - probably best all-around; PG with some size, can rebound well.
Wyatt Mund - 3rd best in region; post with great athletic ability.

Oak Grove
Carter Kretchman - 2nd best all-around; PG that lacks size, but man can he shoot.
Christian Adams - 4th best in region; very athletic guard, great shooter.
Nick Card

Enderlin
Daniel Lindgren
Graham Hurlburt

Central Cass - 4 equal players that have their own strengths.
Tommy Voss
Grady Bresnahan
Connor Rienets
Adam Breske

Maple Valley
James Richman

Fairmount/CT
D'Angelo Burns

Kindred
Eric Bachmeier
Fletcher Andel

Sargent Central
Devin Arp

North Sargent
Dawson Peterson

Richland
Matt Workin

Northern Cass
Cody Springer


I don't think I would put Kretchman as #2 in the region ahead of Lindgren and Mund. Kretchman is averaging 18 pts, 2.5 rbs, 4.5 ast, and 2 stl while Lindgren is getting 20 pts, 6 rbs, 5 ast, and 2 stl. Mund is getting 17 pts, 10 rbs, 6.5 ast, and 1.5 steals.

Also, not sure why you have Bachmeier on the list. I have been to 3 games and read about one, in each of those games Bachmeier was not efficient, didn't produce offensively, and turned the ball over. IMO Josh Lingen is better this year. Eric is just not as good as in year's past.

Here's my rankings:
1. (Tied) Bussman and Burns
Pros: Bussman can score at will he is also a very good shooter along with some of the best handles in the state. He also isn't afraid of big games. Burns is also one of the best scorers in the state, posting some impressive performances. Burns has lead his team to a record that has surprised the region this year. Both can rebound pretty well.
Cons: Bussman tends to force things and needs to look up more and develop better "court vision". Burns tends to come up short in big games and could have better handles. These young men need to improve their defense, right now they are too "one-sided".

2. (Tied) Lindgren and Mund
Pros: Both players have a complete state log. These young men are great "team" players. Mund is an animal on the boards and gets his teammates involved with his passes while Lindgren is very, very smooth on offense.
Cons: Mund tends to pass a little too much resulting in turnovers and Lindgren needs to step up more in close games. Both players are decent defenders but Mund needs to move his feet more and get into a real defensive stance. Lindgren tends to let physical guards get the better of him.

5. Carter Kretchman
Pros: Run said it, the kid can shoot lights out. His percentages from the field and charity stripe are spectacular. Kretchman has good ast/to ratio and is a heads up, smart player. Also very scrappy on defense.
Cons: He is undersized and needs to get stronger. Bigger players tend to give him fits at times.

Notables: (In this order) Christian Adams (good scorer but gets sloppy), James Richman Good sized post but has no good guards to play with), and Dawson Peterson (Lots and lots of points and rebounds but also lots and lots of shots, no one to play with).

Not quite their: (In no specific order) Graham Hurlburt, Nick Card, Matt Workin, Tommy Voss, Fletcher Andel, Adam Breske, and Cody Springer (these guys all have their moments).
Run4Happiness
timberwolf
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby d_fense » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:21 pm

Run, I think you did identify the top 4 players in region 1, but I would order them differently. I would put the like this....
1. Bussman 25.8 ppg. 40% from 3. 1.2 apg. 1.2 spg. 8.8 rpg.
2. Mund. 17.2 ppg. 50% from 3. 5.5 apg. 1.5 spg. 10.2 rpg
3. Adams. 17.5 ppg. 57% from 3. 1.9 apg. 1.5 spg. 5.0 rpg.
4. Kretch. 18.2 ppg. 33% from 3. 4.5 apg. 2.1 spg. 2.5 rpg.

I put Mund 2 because he leads the group in assists and rebounds total per game at 15.7 compared to Adams 6.9 and Kretchmans 7.0, while they are all within one point per game in scoring. Plus he is the biggest player in the group. I have only seen O.G. Play twice this year (Milnor too for that matter) so I should defer to Run, but I will put Adams 3 because he has shot the ball so much better from 3 this year compared to Kretchman. 29/51 compared to 20/60.

That being said, every other team in the region would love to have any of these 4 players. I haven't heard a single thing that has not been positive about any of them.

I have not seen Burns play this year. I am going from past years in not putting him in my top 4.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby timberwolf » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:25 pm

I agree, it's hard to judge Burns without any online stats but all I have heard is good about him as well. With that said, checkout Daniel Lindgren's stats on maxpreps... the kid is good and I think you might squeeze him in your top four.
Run4Happiness
timberwolf
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby baloncesto » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:41 am

Three of the best going at it tonight in milnor. I heard they all put up big numbers.
Burns 34, Mund 26, Bussman 38
Remember...there is always a little boy in the stands that wants to be just like you, don't disappoint him.
User avatar
baloncesto
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:57 pm
Location: Fargo

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:57 am

d_fense wrote:Run, I think you did identify the top 4 players in region 1, but I would order them differently. I would put the like this....
1. Bussman 25.8 ppg. 40% from 3. 1.2 apg. 1.2 spg. 8.8 rpg.
2. Mund. 17.2 ppg. 50% from 3. 5.5 apg. 1.5 spg. 10.2 rpg
3. Adams. 17.5 ppg. 57% from 3. 1.9 apg. 1.5 spg. 5.0 rpg.
4. Kretch. 18.2 ppg. 33% from 3. 4.5 apg. 2.1 spg. 2.5 rpg.

I put Mund 2 because he leads the group in assists and rebounds total per game at 15.7 compared to Adams 6.9 and Kretchmans 7.0, while they are all within one point per game in scoring. Plus he is the biggest player in the group. I have only seen O.G. Play twice this year (Milnor too for that matter) so I should defer to Run, but I will put Adams 3 because he has shot the ball so much better from 3 this year compared to Kretchman. 29/51 compared to 20/60.

That being said, every other team in the region would love to have any of these 4 players. I haven't heard a single thing that has not been positive about any of them.

I have not seen Burns play this year. I am going from past years in not putting him in my top 4.

I'm curious why you have Kretchman and Adams ahead of Lindgren. According to Max Preps, Lindgren has the better stats 20ppg 6rpg 5apg. I also think Burns should be at least top 5.. He has put up some rediculous numbers.
Here is my order
1. Bussman 25.8ppg
2. Mund 17.2ppg
3. Lindgren 20ppg
4. Kretchman 18.2ppg
5. Burns ???
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby d_fense » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Good question.... To me it is not math (it is not black and white with a right or wrong answer). I would answer it like this. It is not about stats. Stats can be a supportive element to the argument, but just that, supportive. If you were going to say stats is the be all and end all, Dawson Peterson from North Sargent would be in everyone's top 2 or 3 since he is scoring 24.7 ppg while averaging 13.4 rpg. He really isn't getting any talk about being a top of the region type of player, in my opinion because he doesn't pass the eye test. I feel the same about Lindgren. If I was to pick a player to have on my team for the final quarter of a tight game (and I am going to blow my original top players apart now) I would take Bussman, Mund, and Kretchman before Lindgren. I am not sure about Adams and Burns. Adams is shooting so well from deep this year I would probably put him ahead of Lindgren also. I think I would put Burns up there too. Burns is hurt by not playing for a top team, but he is getting more support this year which is why his team is having success. Enderlin's record is not very good to this point of the season which is also a bit of a hit on ranking him higher. Going into the season I had thought Enderlin would be the top team in District 2 with a close challenge from Oak Grove. To this point, they have not looked like that type of team. I did see them play Milnor and they did have some other players that did some nice things. Maybe despite the loss, it will be a turning point for them.

So long answer shot. He has not impressed me by having his team surpass or even meet my expectations, and his stats, although very good, do not overcome what I am or am not seeing.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby d_fense » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Good question.... To me it is not math (it is not black and white with a right or wrong answer). I would answer it like this. It is not about stats. Stats can be a supportive element to the argument, but just that, supportive. If you were going to say stats is the be all and end all, Dawson Peterson from North Sargent would be in everyone's top 2 or 3 since he is scoring 24.7 ppg while averaging 13.4 rpg. He really isn't getting any talk about being a top of the region type of player, in my opinion because he doesn't pass the eye test. I feel the same about Lindgren. If I was to pick a player to have on my team for the final quarter of a tight game (and I am going to blow my original top players apart now) I would take Bussman, Mund, and Kretchman before Lindgren. I am not sure about Adams and Burns. Adams is shooting so well from deep this year I would probably put him ahead of Lindgren also. I think I would put Burns up there too. Burns is hurt by not playing for a top team, but he is getting more support this year which is why his team is having success. Enderlin's record is not very good to this point of the season which is also a bit of a hit on ranking him higher. Going into the season I had thought Enderlin would be the top team in District 2 with a close challenge from Oak Grove. To this point, they have not looked like that type of team. I did see them play Milnor and they did have some other players that did some nice things. Maybe despite the loss, it will be a turning point for them.

So long answer shot. He has not impressed me by having his team surpass or even meet my expectations, and his stats, although very good, do not overcome what I am or am not seeing.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby balla45 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:23 pm

I would take Richman over almost all of these guys. He isn't playing with the highest caliber teammates and is still consistently producing. Feel free to dissect my opinion, as I am very biased.
~I have no patience for anyone who doubts me, none at all. My entire goal is to make them feel ashamed for writing me off.

Jordan Maurer
North Dakota Phenom - President
jordan.maurer@northdakotaphenom.com

~Be phenomenal or be forgotten.

~It does not take talent to hustle!
User avatar
balla45
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4262
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Bismarck, North Dakota USA

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby d_fense » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:40 pm

I will start with your statement, "almost all". Who are you saying is better?
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby balla45 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:48 am

I do not think anyone in Region 1 is better, nor do I actually think any player in Class B North Dakota is better, but if I were to argue the point against myself, I could make great arguments for Bussman, Holte, and Heidlebaugh.
~I have no patience for anyone who doubts me, none at all. My entire goal is to make them feel ashamed for writing me off.

Jordan Maurer
North Dakota Phenom - President
jordan.maurer@northdakotaphenom.com

~Be phenomenal or be forgotten.

~It does not take talent to hustle!
User avatar
balla45
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4262
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Bismarck, North Dakota USA

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby d_fense » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:53 am

balla45 wrote:I would take Richman over almost all of these guys. He isn't playing with the highest caliber teammates and is still consistently producing. Feel free to dissect my opinion, as I am very biased.


I have not had a chance to see Richman play this year. Being tall is an advantage in basketball and it has to be taken into account when rating players. Balla, you are right about him not playing with the highest caliber teammates this year. Last year however he played with the regions player of the year. Last year he was good but not elite. Being tall is a two edged sword. It's an advantage so it will often "rank" you higher than your skill, tallent, or work ethic would otherwise place you. (*I am not saying Richman isn't skilled, does not have tallent, or lacks a work ethic*) Being tall also comes with expectations. I am not certain how tall Richman actually is. I am guessing he is a legit 6'7". In class B if you are 6"7" and play decent minutes you should be able to score 12 points and grab 8 rebounds a game with minimal effort. I am not sure what type of numbers Richman is putting up this year. He may be a 24 and 18 guy, I am not sure.

I don't think there is any question that Bussman is the best player in the region.

I would take Mund over Richman. He is about 3 inches shorter, but much more athletic. When they played against each other in past seasons Mund was much quicker to the ball, and could do so many more things than Richman. (Better hands, handles the ball better,shoots better, quicker) Richman is bigger than Mund so causes more problems around the basket for the other team when he is on defense plus has some intimidation factor because of his size.

Personally I love big guys because we have so few of them around here. And because they are few and far between their value is enhanced. That being said, there is something to be said about having a special player who has his hands on the ball most of the game making sure it is where it needs to be and scoring himself. That is why I would put Richman in the 3-5 area.
d_fense
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:13 am
Location: Small town eastern ND

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby balla45 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:25 am

I don't attend all of his games. He has to be somewhere around 25 and 15. I can go on my Twitter feed and look. I think he improved as much as anyone in North Dakota from his junior season to his senior season. I do not disagree that Bussman, Mund, and many other players are much more skilled. What I like with James is what he brings to the table with his length and athleticism. Granted, he benefits greatly from being likely the only 6'7" athletic player in North Dakota, but that just is what it is. I think if he is playing with a high caliber guard this year, he is a 30 a night guy, as his team, at times, struggles just to break a basic press.

Mund is more mobile, I do not disagree, however, he also benefits greatly from being in a similar position to Richman, where he is bigger and more athletic than everyone he plays against. I feel that if a player like Richman was playing with a player like Bussman, he is absolutely dominant, because teams would not be able to play a defender in front and behind him. Also like what he brings to the table as far as interior and help side defense when compared to the others.

Your argument for Bussman is similar to mine, simply being that he is a guard, and as such, is able to effect the game from the perimeter as well as inside the arch, where Richman is only an asset defensively and in the paint.
~I have no patience for anyone who doubts me, none at all. My entire goal is to make them feel ashamed for writing me off.

Jordan Maurer
North Dakota Phenom - President
jordan.maurer@northdakotaphenom.com

~Be phenomenal or be forgotten.

~It does not take talent to hustle!
User avatar
balla45
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4262
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Bismarck, North Dakota USA

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby balla45 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:26 am

It is somewhat like the argument of Kielpinski vs. Savageau of many years ago.
~I have no patience for anyone who doubts me, none at all. My entire goal is to make them feel ashamed for writing me off.

Jordan Maurer
North Dakota Phenom - President
jordan.maurer@northdakotaphenom.com

~Be phenomenal or be forgotten.

~It does not take talent to hustle!
User avatar
balla45
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4262
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Bismarck, North Dakota USA

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:33 pm

d_fense wrote:Good question.... To me it is not math (it is not black and white with a right or wrong answer). I would answer it like this. It is not about stats. Stats can be a supportive element to the argument, but just that, supportive. If you were going to say stats is the be all and end all, Dawson Peterson from North Sargent would be in everyone's top 2 or 3 since he is scoring 24.7 ppg while averaging 13.4 rpg. He really isn't getting any talk about being a top of the region type of player, in my opinion because he doesn't pass the eye test. I feel the same about Lindgren. If I was to pick a player to have on my team for the final quarter of a tight game (and I am going to blow my original top players apart now) I would take Bussman, Mund, and Kretchman before Lindgren. I am not sure about Adams and Burns. Adams is shooting so well from deep this year I would probably put him ahead of Lindgren also. I think I would put Burns up there too. Burns is hurt by not playing for a top team, but he is getting more support this year which is why his team is having success. Enderlin's record is not very good to this point of the season which is also a bit of a hit on ranking him higher. Going into the season I had thought Enderlin would be the top team in District 2 with a close challenge from Oak Grove. To this point, they have not looked like that type of team. I did see them play Milnor and they did have some other players that did some nice things. Maybe despite the loss, it will be a turning point for them.

So long answer shot. He has not impressed me by having his team surpass or even meet my expectations, and his stats, although very good, do not overcome what I am or am not seeing.

Good points.. I agree being a great player shouldn't just be based on stats, winning games is very important.. I too expected Enderlin to be at least top 2 in the district and they definitely have not lived up to my expectations.. They have been up and down so far this year sitting at 6-5.. If Lindgren proves he can win games he is definitely in my top 3 for the region.
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:40 pm

balla45 wrote:I do not think anyone in Region 1 is better, nor do I actually think any player in Class B North Dakota is better, but if I were to argue the point against myself, I could make great arguments for Bussman, Holte, and Heidlebaugh.

I think Richman could be top 5 in the region.. I have not seen his stats, but I have seen them play and he has no help from his teammates he constantly gets doubled and still manages to get it done.. He can get frustrated very easily and that is his weakness.. That being said I don't think he is a top 10 in class b. do you have any stats on him? I'd be interested to see them!
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby balla45 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:20 pm

I think he is quite easily top 10 in Class B. Can not find anything online to cite his absolute dominance, but I would feel safe in saying he is far and away the most dominant true 5 in ND Class B hoops.

Who would your top 10 players in Class B be?

I think I would go with...

Bussman
Duke
Heidlebaugh
Holte
Kretchman
Lee
Mckay
Mund
Richman
Weston

Could have left someone off though.
~I have no patience for anyone who doubts me, none at all. My entire goal is to make them feel ashamed for writing me off.

Jordan Maurer
North Dakota Phenom - President
jordan.maurer@northdakotaphenom.com

~Be phenomenal or be forgotten.

~It does not take talent to hustle!
User avatar
balla45
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4262
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Location: Bismarck, North Dakota USA

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:03 pm

I'm surprised you have Kretchman in your top 10. I would go with
Bussman
Mund
Holte
Duke
Weston
Volk
Lee
Heidlebaugh
McKay
Bosch

I think we should get back to region 1 since that is what this is thread is supposed to be about.
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby EHS1998 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:05 pm

Getting back to this specific topic, the best 2 players in Region 1, in my opinion, are Bussman and Mund. I don't differentiate between the two. I think they are equally good, although with very different games. I will qualify this statement with the fact that I have not seen a number of Region 1 teams play, but I don't believe, based on research and talking to others, that there are any players on the teams that I have not seen that rival these 2.
We plan and God laughs.
EHS1998
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:07 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:15 am

I think everyone will agree they are the top 2 players in the region. Bussman is the best scorer in the region and Mund is the best overall player.
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby winner-within » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:26 am

whats nice is there on the same team (bussman, mund)

Region 2 has 2 real good players on the same team also (Cavalier Tornadoes)
Chrest-Robbins...whats nice is the have Bjornson, Steiger to compliment them and all 4 are 6'2" 6'3"
If you can’t excel with talent, triumph with effort.
winner-within
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4948
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:08 am

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby EHS1998 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:29 am

winner-within wrote:whats nice is there on the same team (bussman, mund)

Region 2 has 2 real good players on the same team also
Chrest-Robbins...whats nice is the have Bjornson, Steiger to compliment them and all 4 are 6'2" 6'3"


That is some serious length. Tough match up. I hear that Enderlin is long too.
We plan and God laughs.
EHS1998
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:07 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby ND-is-#1 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:34 pm

EHS1998 wrote:
winner-within wrote:whats nice is there on the same team (bussman, mund)

Region 2 has 2 real good players on the same team also
Chrest-Robbins...whats nice is the have Bjornson, Steiger to compliment them and all 4 are 6'2" 6'3"


That is some serious length. Tough match up. I hear that Enderlin is long too.

I believe Enderlin starts 6'1" 6'2" 6'3" 6'4" and 6'7"
ND-is-#1
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:53 pm

Re: Best player in region 1?

Postby EHS1998 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:53 pm

ND-is-#1 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:
winner-within wrote:whats nice is there on the same team (bussman, mund)

Region 2 has 2 real good players on the same team also
Chrest-Robbins...whats nice is the have Bjornson, Steiger to compliment them and all 4 are 6'2" 6'3"


That is some serious length. Tough match up. I hear that Enderlin is long too.

I believe Enderlin starts 6'1" 6'2" 6'3" 6'4" and 6'7"


Yep, thats long for ND Class B basketball.
We plan and God laughs.
EHS1998
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:07 pm

Next

Return to Boys

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests