Basketball Bible

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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:29 pm

EHS1998 wrote:
heimer wrote:And EHS, don't play nice now. I'm a small, bitter man, remember?

....You speak of credibility, yet you and The Schwab savagely attack a Board of Director's meeting....You attack the VCHS staff ...... you continue to spread your lies about that meeting and the intent


I'm a nice guy, what can I say. As you have admitted, you like to elicit responses from us and you were successful in doing so with me until I decided not to take that bait.

At the end of the day, you are what you are. I am very comfortable with who I am.

To be clear, I have attacked no one and have not lied about anything. I challenge the motive of the decision and I obviously had a different version of what took place and the manner in which the decision was made from a source I took to be credible. I still continue to feel that the decision was wrong and the motive questionable, but that doesn't mean I am attacking the body that made it. I'm sorry but you being there doesn't do a lot for me in terms of factual evidence as you will clearly spin it the way you deem fit to align with your agenda.

Funny thing is, you and I are on the same side of the 3 class debate. We just have a history based on what happened a few years ago that neither of us seem able to get past. For my part, I regret this.


You regret it, or ask for forgiveness?... :) the language of letting go
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:32 pm

Heck raise it to 700.....If one town gets rich who cares....its North Dakota where change isn't inevitable, its impossible
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:37 pm

EHS1998 wrote:What entity derived the greatest direct benefit of this decision? Who else benefited from it? Was any other entity impacted by this decision? Were these impacts analysed and discussed as part of the decision making process? Was any feedback solicited by any other entity potentially impacted by this decision?


1. Valley City
2. At the time no one. Now, Watford City and Stanley.
3. Now, Watford City and Stanley.
4. Yes, thus the placement of Valley City in District 5
5. Yes, the meeting was open and the agenda published, as with all agenda items for NDHSAA board meetings.

The fact of the matter is your District 5 buddies knew this was going on. They didn't gripe till they found out they had Valley City as an opponent, because they assumed they would be in District 2 with Oak Grove, Central Cass, Kindred, etc, etc. If you don't believe me, ask them. I did.

No one cared as long as Valley City wasn't their problem. Once it became their problem, then it was no fair.

Who has the credibility issue now?
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby eagle101 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:02 pm

5. Yes, the meeting was open and the agenda published, as with all agenda items for NDHSAA board meetings.

The fact of the matter is your District 5 buddies knew this was going on. They didn't gripe till they found out they had Valley City as an opponent, because they assumed they would be in District 2 with Oak Grove, Central Cass, Kindred, etc, etc. If you don't believe me, ask them. I did.



I like #5 from heimer. The NDHSAA is terrible at posting the agenda and minutes. Look at the current site with the link. They don't even have the minutes from their Sept. 17th meeting posted yet. They have a meeting on October 16th and don't have an agenda yet posted.

http://www.ndhsaa.com/board/meetings

the other statement is also incorrect from heimer because the truth doesn't fit his agenda
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby EHS1998 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:41 pm

heimer wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:What entity derived the greatest direct benefit of this decision? Who else benefited from it? Was any other entity impacted by this decision? Were these impacts analysed and discussed as part of the decision making process? Was any feedback solicited by any other entity potentially impacted by this decision?


1. Valley City
2. At the time no one. Now, Watford City and Stanley.
3. Now, Watford City and Stanley.
4. Yes, thus the placement of Valley City in District 5
5. Yes, the meeting was open and the agenda published, as with all agenda items for NDHSAA board meetings.

The fact of the matter is your District 5 buddies knew this was going on. They didn't gripe till they found out they had Valley City as an opponent, because they assumed they would be in District 2 with Oak Grove, Central Cass, Kindred, etc, etc. If you don't believe me, ask them. I did.

No one cared as long as Valley City wasn't their problem. Once it became their problem, then it was no fair.

Who has the credibility issue now?


Thank you for this transparency.

From the information you provided earlier, I took the meeting and inherent decision to have happened in real time as opposed to convening to listen to the proposal, then going back to actively conduct the due diligence I referenced, then coming back with a decision. If this all occurred and is documented somewhere, then I guess I have a hard time arguing with the decision.

It boggles my mind that administrators in D5 or anywhere else were given the opportunity to weigh in on this change and said nothing in opposition until after the decision was made.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Indy5 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:56 pm

EHS1998 wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:It's kind of ironic, we have had to compete against VC in Babe Ruth for years now and they trot out their 30-40+ kids and typically dominate the likes of Ellendale and Edgeley with their 9 total players each (when we are lucky) and no one from VC seems to have any problem with it, in fact they seem to revel in it. (This is why I have a hard time pitying them). But when you turn it around and its Valley that has to compete against opponents that are significantly larger, its a travesty of justice. How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

I'll play devil's advocate here. Valley City is a permanent class B legion team now because it was a joke when they played class A. Maybe they don't have a problem with them being the big dog cause they're so sick of getting whooped.


Ok, they couldn't compete against A who had number advantages against them, they move to class B and have a significant number advantage over many of their opponents so they can compete and in some cases dominate. This solved the problem in your opinion?

Well quite honestly I'm pretty sure the class A legion teams are the ones who wanted them gone because it was a pointless blowout everytime. And yes, I'd say it fixed the problem because as far as I can remember Valley hasn't won state yet. Have they even made state yet? I do see that numbers will give them a bigger edge in the babe ruth age because that's the way it goes, but the move was made for the legion team and it seems to be a good fit.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby EHS1998 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:53 pm

Indy5 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:It's kind of ironic, we have had to compete against VC in Babe Ruth for years now and they trot out their 30-40+ kids and typically dominate the likes of Ellendale and Edgeley with their 9 total players each (when we are lucky) and no one from VC seems to have any problem with it, in fact they seem to revel in it. (This is why I have a hard time pitying them). But when you turn it around and its Valley that has to compete against opponents that are significantly larger, its a travesty of justice. How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

I'll play devil's advocate here. Valley City is a permanent class B legion team now because it was a joke when they played class A. Maybe they don't have a problem with them being the big dog cause they're so sick of getting whooped.


Ok, they couldn't compete against A who had number advantages against them, they move to class B and have a significant number advantage over many of their opponents so they can compete and in some cases dominate. This solved the problem in your opinion?

Well quite honestly I'm pretty sure the class A legion teams are the ones who wanted them gone because it was a pointless blowout everytime. And yes, I'd say it fixed the problem because as far as I can remember Valley hasn't won state yet. Have they even made state yet? I do see that numbers will give them a bigger edge in the babe ruth age because that's the way it goes, but the move was made for the legion team and it seems to be a good fit.


Poll the majority of small town teams that face them and see if this solution works for them.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:44 pm

winner-within wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:You never cease to amaze me winner. There are entire counties in the state (maybe even putting two together) where if you built one school right in the middle you would still not have 75 in high school. But no, lets have them sit on a bus for 4 hours a day so they can go to a school large enough for your standards.



Name them counties.....and if so shut down the courthouse because we dont need 52 counties then either, in other words Consolidate the county's too.....nobody sits for 4 hours...I gotta 105 average in ND Geography...4 hours your from Dickinson to Fargo silly...

to counter your lop-sided perception (and use the current schools, I dont care I dont need a new one) but just for debate purposes lets say you aim at 200 shut down come together, shut down come together, shut down come together....now you have a handful of "super co-ops" or lets say piontless co-ops that are no more


Towner, mchenry, Nelson, Steele, Griggs, eddy, foster, Sheridan, wells.....I could go on, too. If you don't believe me take a look at the map of all those counties and add the schools enrollment up. That's just the central part of the state, too.

You ever ride a bus to school before? You could live 15 miles out of town and be on a bus for. Over an hour in the am and again in the pm on the route. Add the distances you want to see happen and 4 hours is not unrealistic at all, unless you're running a bus for every 5 kids and that would probably make sense for you
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:48 pm

The meeting broke without a regional or district assignment for VC. They only moved the number to 400. Basketball scheduling doesn't start till November, to coincide with the season you're playing. They took the time to figure out what to do with VC.

It was a foregone conclusion that VC would end up in District 2. The VCHS officials expected this. There was logic behind it. District 2 presented like-sized schools, and one of the smaller ones, Maple Valley, was on the up, and could compete well. This scenario gave the NDHSAA 3-5 years to figure out what was happening.

At the literal 11th hour, the decision was made to place VC in District 5. While I disagreed with the placement, there was one very good piece of logic behind it. District 5 was one of the few that didn't have a size component to it. Almost every other district has a school or two that are just bigger than the rest. District 5 had hidden in an area where they didn't have to face the idea of going through a big dog in their league.

To give you an idea how big of a surprise this was to the VCHS officials: When I called the AD to ask about the conversation, he could name every team in District 2. When the decision was made, and I called him to ask about it, his exact quote to me was, "Well, they put us in with Barnes County North and those teams." I said, "Oh, they put you in with District 5?" He said, "I couldn't even answer you on that. I just know we're in with Barnes County North."
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Indy5 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:18 pm

EHS1998 wrote:Poll the majority of small town teams that face them and see if this solution works for them.

They were the 5th seed from their section last year. I'm not sure how much more fair it can be for the other teams. What should they be 8th? And the small towns should like it because I'm sure Valley has a way nicer field than all of them.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby EHS1998 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:09 pm

Indy5 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:Poll the majority of small town teams that face them and see if this solution works for them.

They were the 5th seed from their section last year. I'm not sure how much more fair it can be for the other teams. What should they be 8th? And the small towns should like it because I'm sure Valley has a way nicer field than all of them.


I was and have been referring to Babe Ruth. But it is what it is, its been this way for awhile. Clearly not equitable but I am not sure there is a better solution. I'm not on a crusade to change it, I was just using it as an example to illustrate another side of the numbers divide, which in this case VC benefits from. I am pretty sure that I never mentioned legion at all.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Flying Wallenda » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:21 am

I'm just so thankful that Heimer hasn't been spouting "Koombiya" ever other sentence...I was near shattering my computer screen after reading a few separate posts where that was his go-to word...oh that and "DRINKING THE RED KOOL-AID" (though I know that was referenced during his gospel). Considering the evil class b superintendents (aren't a few buying up some land around Lieth:) wield all of this power (I know a few very well, one in particular:) perhaps that they could end the government shut-down and save a spirally nation? All sides make compelling arguments. My thinking is, less schools every year, but we add a class? And I was a 3 class advocate the last vote. I'm not anymore. Approximately 115 school warrant a 3rd class, when 20 years ago (oh-oh, hear I go lamenting on the past, shame on me! Red Kool-Aid anyone?) 180 schools had 2 classes? Will we go to 4 classes when we are down to 85 schools?
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:40 am

I'm still up in the air regarding three classes. On one hand we had many more teams and two classes worked fine. But you also have to remember at that time there wasn't as large of a gap between big A and small A, big B and average B. There were many many small Bs that probably would have benefitted as class Cs at the time though. On the other hand we have about 100 football teams and run 4 classes and seems to work fine, even though I feel 3 would be better. I know they are different sports and football plays once a week, but overall it's basically just the same concept
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Flying Wallenda » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:54 am

ndlionsfan wrote:I'm still up in the air regarding three classes. On one hand we had many more teams and two classes worked fine. But you also have to remember at that time there wasn't as large of a gap between big A and small A, big B and average B. There were many many small Bs that probably would have benefitted as class Cs at the time though. On the other hand we have about 100 football teams and run 4 classes and seems to work fine, even though I feel 3 would be better. I know they are different sports and football plays once a week, but overall it's basically just the same concept


I completely feel football should move down to 3 classes, and this is something I believe will be looked at and brought up by a few admins I know, though the NDHSAA just sent out a survey about a month ago that was returned with the majority wanting to stay with 4 classes. I believe 20-30 years ago 3 classes in basketball made far more sense than it does now.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:35 am

ndlionsfan wrote:
winner-within wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:You never cease to amaze me winner. There are entire counties in the state (maybe even putting two together) where if you built one school right in the middle you would still not have 75 in high school. But no, lets have them sit on a bus for 4 hours a day so they can go to a school large enough for your standards.



Name them counties.....and if so shut down the courthouse because we dont need 52 counties then either, in other words Consolidate the county's too.....nobody sits for 4 hours...I gotta 105 average in ND Geography...4 hours your from Dickinson to Fargo silly...

to counter your lop-sided perception (and use the current schools, I dont care I dont need a new one) but just for debate purposes lets say you aim at 200 shut down come together, shut down come together, shut down come together....now you have a handful of "super co-ops" or lets say piontless co-ops that are no more




Towner, mchenry, Nelson, Steele, Griggs, eddy, foster, Sheridan, wells.....I could go on, too. If you don't believe me take a look at the map of all those counties and add the schools enrollment up. That's just the central part of the state, too.

You ever ride a bus to school before? You could live 15 miles out of town and be on a bus for. Over an hour in the am and again in the pm on the route. Add the distances you want to see happen and 4 hours is not unrealistic at all, unless you're running a bus for every 5 kids and that would probably make sense for you


I lived 3 miles from town ...on the short route I was on the bus for 15 minutes on the long route 1 hour and 15 minutes...switched every week..

I KNOW!! instead of schools being built, lets make more Amtrak tracks so we can get them 2 kids to school faster....we can paint the trains yellow with little red stop signs that stick out so no other trains can pass them....now get out there and cut some wood for the stove in your school!!

Oh and the first paragraph of your argument (list of counties) Isolates my argument....THERES NO KIDS IN THE SCHOOLS!!
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby letsrap » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:15 am

Just curious what is Valley City's enrollment numbers this year?
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby EHS1998 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:29 am

I realize that we have less teams now than before and it defies traditional logic to add a class.

But ND's geography and population distribution really provides a real challenge in creating equitable opportunities for teams to compete. Surely people see this.

I cant get my head around the consolidation argument at all.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:31 pm

EHS1998 wrote:I realize that we have less teams now than before and it defies traditional logic to add a class.

But ND's geography and population distribution really provides a real challenge in creating equitable opportunities for teams to compete. Surely people see this.

I cant get my head around the consolidation argument at all.



dont try get your head around it....just think of the ones that have happened

consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self.
so put sports aside....lets say we live where there is no sports allowed
do we still face the fact that schools are emptying out, and is the reason for consolidation?
this is why schools consolidate even if the tax money is huge to that district, three, four kids in each class does not make a school, in MN thats a home school.

Co-ops are for Sports and Sports alone and Consolidations are for Education and Education alone
Last edited by winner-within on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby The Schwab » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:49 pm

Wow winner we actually agree on something! Your last statement!
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Indy5 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:23 am

EHS1998 wrote:
Indy5 wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:Poll the majority of small town teams that face them and see if this solution works for them.

They were the 5th seed from their section last year. I'm not sure how much more fair it can be for the other teams. What should they be 8th? And the small towns should like it because I'm sure Valley has a way nicer field than all of them.


I was and have been referring to Babe Ruth. But it is what it is, its been this way for awhile. Clearly not equitable but I am not sure there is a better solution. I'm not on a crusade to change it, I was just using it as an example to illustrate another side of the numbers divide, which in this case VC benefits from. I am pretty sure that I never mentioned legion at all.

If you mention babe ruth, it directly relates to legion. That'd be like deciding a team's class based on what's fair for the JV instead of the varsity.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:23 am

EHS, it's funny how you complain about the exact same problem that VC has had in every sport. You get it for one sport, at the sub-varsity level, and you think there's enough injustice to warrant looking into change. But VC deals with it for every sport but football, and that's just the price of doing business.

What did you call this earlier? Hypocrisy, I believe you said?
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby nduser1 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:44 am

The below statement may be true but don't kid yourselves "consolidation" has helped Northern Cass's sports teams tremedously. Huge area / district that the kids come from and many open enroll from areas that have smaller schools but want kids to have better opportunity. sports included.



"consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self."
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:30 pm

nduser1 wrote:The below statement may be true but don't kid yourselves "consolidation" has helped Northern Cass's sports teams tremedously. Huge area / district that the kids come from and many open enroll from areas that have smaller schools but want kids to have better opportunity. sports included.



"consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self."


I wouldn't kid anybody, did it help the sports programs? thats awesome if it did
I know I wouldn't wanna show up at a meeting to build a new facility with "helping the sports program" on my agenda...a guy would probably get kicked out..lol
with that said any common sense decision to get more kids under a new roof (which is what needs to be done more in rural ND) will obviously help out sports.... and thats all a Co-op does (which is just a band aid)
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:55 pm

Every board meeting that comes up, someone attempts to introduce the idea of 6-man football, just to keep small towns with an identity.

I don't like the idea at all, as I believe, if we're going to endorse 6-man football, we might as well endorse 3-man halfcourt basketball. Sure, it's not the real game, but who cares as long as the name on the front of the shirt gets represented.

But it does beg the point, with an additional class, would we not have more teams.

We seem to think that our declining number of teams is a reason to swear off another class. But if there was a decent-sized middle class, some co-ops would likely dissolve.

I mean, if we're going to entertain the idea of 6-man football to sustain a small town's identity, then why not let Finley-Sharon and Hope-Page have their own basketball teams by giving them a smaller class to compete in. Heck, we had three teams from Dakota Prairie at one time, so the model works even for kids that attend school together.

If we cant get behind this, then lets drop the 6-man football argument. As a matter of fact, lets phase out nine-man too. It's only there for town identity. Either play 11 man or don't play.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby The Schwab » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:37 pm

heimer wrote:Every board meeting that comes up, someone attempts to introduce the idea of 6-man football, just to keep small towns with an identity.

I don't like the idea at all, as I believe, if we're going to endorse 6-man football, we might as well endorse 3-man halfcourt basketball. Sure, it's not the real game, but who cares as long as the name on the front of the shirt gets represented.

But it does beg the point, with an additional class, would we not have more teams.

We seem to think that our declining number of teams is a reason to swear off another class. But if there was a decent-sized middle class, some co-ops would likely dissolve.

I mean, if we're going to entertain the idea of 6-man football to sustain a small town's identity, then why not let Finley-Sharon and Hope-Page have their own basketball teams by giving them a smaller class to compete in. Heck, we had three teams from Dakota Prairie at one time, so the model works even for kids that attend school together.

If we cant get behind this, then lets drop the 6-man football argument. As a matter of fact, lets phase out nine-man too. It's only there for town identity. Either play 11 man or don't play.


Weren't they three different schools that operated under one "District"? I'm not a fan of the 6 man football idea, but I am a fan of the 9 man class.
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