Basketball Bible

[winner-within]

"or allow 5 schools to co-op with Grafton for softball (Cavalier, Drayton, St. Thomas, Valley, Park River, are there any others, isn't North Border involved there"

this Basketball Team would beat the Big A's....you said this was Bball thread...although I agree, thats why No sports co-ops for me....lets consolidate..

"It's hilarious that a couple of B schools approach A class, and now we're open to dialogue. But Heaven forbid we take care of this 10 years ago"

this is truly why your upset Heimer.......a person cant generate despise in 6 months............changing it now is simply to late in your eyes and many

[ndlionsfan]

"or allow 5 schools to co-op with Grafton for softball (Cavalier, Drayton, St. Thomas, Valley, Park River, are there any others, isn't North Border involved there"

this Basketball Team would beat the Big A's....you said this was Bball thread...although I agree, thats why No sports co-ops for me....lets consolidate..

"It's hilarious that a couple of B schools approach A class, and now we're open to dialogue. But Heaven forbid we take care of this 10 years ago"

this is truly why your upset Heimer.......a person cant generate despise in 6 months............changing it now is simply to late in your eyes and many

Heimer's class B talk and Winner's consolidation talk in the same topic....definitely going to have to change my over/under prediction now.

[The Schwab]

When you change class B basketball to "division b basketball" for the sole purpose of allowing 2 schools to stay under the cap (and I know for certain that one school had a member on that board, I'm not sure if the other did) I call that having a hidden agenda. Like I've said over and over it is easier for a school of 300 to compete with a school of 1200 than it is for a school of 75 to compete with a school of 300.

[winner-within]

"or allow 5 schools to co-op with Grafton for softball (Cavalier, Drayton, St. Thomas, Valley, Park River, are there any others, isn't North Border involved there"

this Basketball Team would beat the Big A's....you said this was Bball thread...although I agree, thats why No sports co-ops for me....lets consolidate..

"It's hilarious that a couple of B schools approach A class, and now we're open to dialogue. But Heaven forbid we take care of this 10 years ago"

this is truly why your upset Heimer.......a person cant generate despise in 6 months............changing it now is simply to late in your eyes and many

yea, but I dont write Bibles on it
you can offer all the sports you want to...spring, fall, in between, but its the main one Basketball, that paves the ways for decision making in Valley City.... period. why? because we have winters in ND that last 5 months just like Basketball does, its Just.

true consolidations will come before 3 classes even though the decision makers are different folks in whole.

[winner-within]

When you change class B basketball to "division b basketball" for the sole purpose of allowing 2 schools to stay under the cap (and I know for certain that one school had a member on that board, I'm not sure if the other did) I call that having a hidden agenda. Like I've said over and over it is easier for a school of 300 to compete with a school of 1200 than it is for a school of 75 to compete with a school of 300.

with 847 kindergartners in West Fargo alone this fall and 1 new school going up each year for the next 5 years in West Fargo (what I herd), there is absolutely no reason we still have schools in the State, rural or not, that only have 75 kids in 7 thru 12 or 9 thru 12....none.

lets say a Private entity was going to build a school in North Dakota....would they look at the enrollment rules with the NDSAA? yep....would they build it for 75 total in the grades that matter for the sports rule? nope
would they build it so it could squeak in on 325? yep....would they plan on sports co-ops? why of course not

Oh yea! almost forgetted ...would they be in the State B tourn within 3 years ...yep

[ndlionsfan]

You never cease to amaze me winner. There are entire counties in the state (maybe even putting two together) where if you built one school right in the middle you would still not have 75 in high school. But no, lets have them sit on a bus for 4 hours a day so they can go to a school large enough for your standards.

[winner-within]

You never cease to amaze me winner. There are entire counties in the state (maybe even putting two together) where if you built one school right in the middle you would still not have 75 in high school. But no, lets have them sit on a bus for 4 hours a day so they can go to a school large enough for your standards.

Name them counties.....and if so shut down the courthouse because we dont need 52 counties then either, in other words Consolidate the county's too.....nobody sits for 4 hours...I gotta 105 average in ND Geography...4 hours your from Dickinson to Fargo silly...

to counter your lop-sided perception (and use the current schools, I dont care I dont need a new one) but just for debate purposes lets say you aim at 200 shut down come together, shut down come together, shut down come together....now you have a handful of "super co-ops" or lets say piontless co-ops that are no more

[NDplayin]

I also don't think our system is perfect, and I too see some clouds on the horizon. However, I also recognize that no system will ever be perfect.

Exactly what clouds do you see on the horizon. As a fan of the current system, you shouldn't see any. Your B friends have rigged the bylaws directly in your favor. As long as there is a two-division system, the enrollment number used for classification is 325. No exceptions.

So, you have your number. Period. The state has made it clear there are no "clouds" for the state. There may be clouds for the individual school, but, based on bylaws you fully support, they are not the state's problem.

Heimer, Heimer, Heimer... you couldn't have chosen two better sentences to quote me, but then you completely ignored what I consider to be the more important of the two sentences, the one I took the liberty of underlining.

You see, Heimer, I've always seen clouds on the horizon. Too often for my own taste, I've seen the same clouds you've seen. One area we differ is my I recognition of the fact that we live in an imperfect world; there isn't and never will be a plan that provides us with a utopian clear blue sky.

Therefore, I'm able to recognize clouds on the two class horizon and evaluate those clouds using logic, facts, statistics and the like. Then I form my opinion based on which type of plan I think would have the fewest and least threatening clouds for the aggregate of the landscape.

On the contrary, you seem to make a habit out of recognizing a cloud- running directly under it, shouting about it, trying to make everybody afraid of it, and then asserting that if immediate change doesn't take place, we will be forever doomed. This is what I call screaming at the rain. The entire time you are standing underneath one specific cloud screaming about it, you are missing out on what could be a productive conversation about how a different plan would certainly bring different clouds and debating which clouds present the worse threat for the aggregate.

It makes me sad that you can't have that productive conversation based on logic, facts, and statistics here. Landscapes are fluid and ever changing, and ours is currently changing at a rapid pace. I personally still don't envision a basketball and volleyball plan with fewer and less threatening clouds than two classes, but with additional clouds on the horizon, you have a better chance to convince me now than you ever have- especially if you used logic, facts, and statistics. Unfortunately, when asked to do so, you chose to run underneath your specific cloud and scream, "I don't care."

You're a smart guy, Heimer. You write clever things and know a lot of history. Unfortunately for both you and everyone else, you aren't smart enough to actually accomplish anything. You're focus is too narrow, you're too arrogant to admit anyone else might have a different viewpoint worth considering, and you're down right rude. As long as you keep making remarks like the one below, you're going to continue to be frustrated with the amount of resistance you get here and elsewhere. It won't be possible for you to be productive.

Furthermore, I guess you're a typical small town North Dakotan: Rather do the wrong thing the right way than deal with a right thing done a wrong way. Enjoy the oil.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'd much rather do the right thing the right way. Enjoy your rain cloud.

[The Schwab]

Winner you are seriously so out of whack it is unbelievable. So basically you want to destroy all but like 15 towns in North Dakota, because when you lose a school your town will slowly die. Where should the kids from Marmarth go to school? They should drive for over 90 miles one way to school? How about the kids who live in northeastern Harding County (SD yes I know) but who go to school currently in North Dakota, should they get up at 6 and drive to school? If you think that schools with under 75 are a drain on our states economy I offer you the opportunity to come to the school I teach at and observe for a day.

[winner-within]

Winner you are seriously so out of whack it is unbelievable. So basically you want to destroy all but like 15 towns in North Dakota, because when you lose a school your town will slowly die. Where should the kids from Marmarth go to school? They should drive for over 90 miles one way to school? How about the kids who live in northeastern Harding County (SD yes I know) but who go to school currently in North Dakota, should they get up at 6 and drive to school? If you think that schools with under 75 are a drain on our states economy I offer you the opportunity to come to the school I teach at and observe for a day.

Thanks for the compliment

My school is closed since 1999, town is doing great...

Its 60 miles from Edmore ND to McVille ND their co-oped....Oh but wait!!! they always meet up in Lakota....hmmm where should the school be..
in 95% of ND my plan makes total sense............or lets have 3 classes and let Trinity and Grafton and Shilo Christain and the other regulars just stand at the attendance door wishing they could play in the tournament..slight sarcas

[EHS1998]

It's kind of ironic, we have had to compete against VC in Babe Ruth for years now and they trot out their 30-40+ kids and typically dominate the likes of Ellendale and Edgeley with their 9 total players each (when we are lucky) and no one from VC seems to have any problem with it, in fact they seem to revel in it. (This is why I have a hard time pitying them). But when you turn it around and its Valley that has to compete against opponents that are significantly larger, its a travesty of justice. How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

[Indy5]

It's kind of ironic, we have had to compete against VC in Babe Ruth for years now and they trot out their 30-40+ kids and typically dominate the likes of Ellendale and Edgeley with their 9 total players each (when we are lucky) and no one from VC seems to have any problem with it, in fact they seem to revel in it. (This is why I have a hard time pitying them). But when you turn it around and its Valley that has to compete against opponents that are significantly larger, its a travesty of justice. How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

I'll play devil's advocate here. Valley City is a permanent class B legion team now because it was a joke when they played class A. Maybe they don't have a problem with them being the big dog cause they're so sick of getting whooped.

[EHS1998]

It's kind of ironic, we have had to compete against VC in Babe Ruth for years now and they trot out their 30-40+ kids and typically dominate the likes of Ellendale and Edgeley with their 9 total players each (when we are lucky) and no one from VC seems to have any problem with it, in fact they seem to revel in it. (This is why I have a hard time pitying them). But when you turn it around and its Valley that has to compete against opponents that are significantly larger, its a travesty of justice. How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

I'll play devil's advocate here. Valley City is a permanent class B legion team now because it was a joke when they played class A. Maybe they don't have a problem with them being the big dog cause they're so sick of getting whooped.

Ok, they couldn't compete against A who had number advantages against them, they move to class B and have a significant number advantage over many of their opponents so they can compete and in some cases dominate. This solved the problem in your opinion?

[EHS1998]

I need to retract an earlier statement, I actually do feel for VC in their current situation. It would be disingenuous for me not to. I am surprised at the opposition to even considering a 3 class system. While certainly not perfect, it would seem to be much more equitable for more teams than our current system.

[winner-within]

Play the Class A North Dakota Champs against
MN
A
2A
3A
4A
Champs...chances are we win 1 ............there are 3A, 4A players now and then that come thru ND
but there are never 3A, 4A teams, and everyone with a brain knows why....

I am for 1 class before 3, lets implement 1 class after we get some practical consolidations going and dissolve the "super co-ops" of B

[classB4ever]

Play the Class A North Dakota Champs against
MN
A
2A
3A
4A
Champs...chances are we win 1 ............there are 3A, 4A players now and then that come thru ND
but there are never 3A, 4A teams, and everyone with a brain knows why....

I am for 1 class before 3, lets implement 1 class after we get some practical consolidations going and dissolve the "super co-ops" of B

Serious question winner, would you list who you consider the "super co-ops"?

[heimer]

How do you reconcile such hypocrisy?

With a three-class system.

[heimer]

And EHS, don't play nice now. I'm a small, bitter man, remember? I'm actually not either one of those things. Its usually 20-1 in here, so I make sure I make a big fight, with any point possible. Sure, I use sarcasm and sharp, critical attacks on the Class B world, but you deserve it. In vote after vote, you take care of your own, while shutting the door on discussion of change to save your precious posterity.

Sure, it's easy to pass off mega-co-ops in the non-traditional sports, and play the bleeding heart "all about the kids and opportunities" card. But if 325 means 325, then that's what it means.

If Hazen and Beulah co-op in wrestling, they wrestle Class A. They already play hockey Class A.

If Grafton wants to absorb all of the northeast for softball, they play softball Class A. The EDC will be happy to have them.

You speak of credibility, yet you and The Schwab savagely attack a Board of Director's meeting that took place where every other meeting takes place, at the same time that every other meeting takes place, publicized in the same manner that every other meeting is publicized, and that you didn't attend, a meeting that I did attend. You attack the VCHS staff for cheating to get the number raised, when they went through the same process that every other mega-co-op has gone through to be approved.

Same place, same time, same staff, same process, you weren't there, I was, yet you have more credibility than I do? Sorry, you lose the argument on credibility, and you lose it further when you continue to spread your lies about that meeting and the intent, and the rest of your District 5 brethren lose it also.

You ask about the hypocrisy of Babe Ruth baseball? I reconcile it two ways.

The first, better way: Valley City doesn't want to play you any more than you want to play them. What they have lobbied for is not what they have. They want three classes. My suggestion (verifiable by Grafton's head baseball coach Chad Kliniske, whom I interviewed on the subject this summer) is to move VC, Devils Lake, Wahpeton in with the Jr. Legions in the metros (Fargo Bombers, Bismarck Scarlets, etc) that already have their own division of baseball. We already have three classes of legion baseball. Let those teams join the middle division we've already created with the 15-16 year-old programs out there. Form a Babe Ruth league among those teams.

The second, far less successful way: You deal with it in one sport for six weeks. VC deals with it in at least seven sports for an entire school year. Sometime inequity balances by amount and duration.

You need a solid dose of facts, which you, and most like you, don't have. You may present your arguments in a more caring, polite manner, but they still lack facts, like what really happened before and up to that meeting, who the players were, and what athletes in Valley City deal with. In my time in ND sports, I've seen the big A's, the little A's, the big B's and the little B's. My credibility is just fine.

[The Schwab]

When it comes down to the vote/meeting deciding to make it division B I actually don't have a problem with how Valley City handled it, my problem still lies with a certain administrator that is not from VC.

There is no class B for hockey (Grafton-PR plays A, same as every other hockey team)

I agree that something needs to be done about all of the wrestling co-oping.

[heimer]

Spill it.

It was a unanimous vote. One administrator wouldn't have made the difference.

But spill it. Tell us who, or at least, what he/she did. If we're going to have a credibility war, then lets have it. Don't hide behind "one administrator" in a unanimous vote and then not give the details.

[winner-within]

Play the Class A North Dakota Champs against
MN
A
2A
3A
4A
Champs...chances are we win 1 ............there are 3A, 4A players now and then that come thru ND
but there are never 3A, 4A teams, and everyone with a brain knows why....

I am for 1 class before 3, lets implement 1 class after we get some practical consolidations going and dissolve the "super co-ops" of B

Serious question winner, would you list who you consider the "super co-ops"?

notice the quotations? I'm using it in context to the "Thread Header"......I personally wouldn't call them that I would be more inclined to refer to them as "senseless"
Why? because I never got to co-op to play another sport actually nobody did then...you talk about travel?? its the stupidest argument I've heard.....there millions of miles being put on family vehicles to play a sport...period.

Co-ops are, and read carefully "a planed and legal way for 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 schools to participate together in a sport but to also keep all those school doors open" ...they have little to do anymore with actually fielding a team (like they did in the beginning)...

[EHS1998]

And EHS, don't play nice now. I'm a small, bitter man, remember?

....You speak of credibility, yet you and The Schwab savagely attack a Board of Director's meeting....You attack the VCHS staff ...... you continue to spread your lies about that meeting and the intent

I'm a nice guy, what can I say. As you have admitted, you like to elicit responses from us and you were successful in doing so with me until I decided not to take that bait.

At the end of the day, you are what you are. I am very comfortable with who I am.

To be clear, I have attacked no one and have not lied about anything. I challenge the motive of the decision and I obviously had a different version of what took place and the manner in which the decision was made from a source I took to be credible. I still continue to feel that the decision was wrong and the motive questionable, but that doesn't mean I am attacking the body that made it. I'm sorry but you being there doesn't do a lot for me in terms of factual evidence as you will clearly spin it the way you deem fit to align with your agenda.

Funny thing is, you and I are on the same side of the 3 class debate. We just have a history based on what happened a few years ago that neither of us seem able to get past. For my part, I regret this.

[heimer]

No spin just facts about the meeting:

Attendance: Board of Directors, NDHSAA staff, Al Cruchet--Activities Director of VCHS, Dean Koppelman, Superintendent of VCHS.

VCHS presents request to change number to 400 for Class B schools for basketball and volleyball. Cites various evidence to support decision.

Board discusses, no objections from the board. A few questions from the board for Dean Koppelmen, none negative.

Board discusses motion. Without further input from VCHS staff, changes request to 400 for all activities, including fine arts.

Motion made, vote held.

Kim Knodle, a member of the Board of Directors at the time, and the current principal at VCHS, abstains from voting. Knodle did not participate in discussion during discussion period.

Vote taken, unanimous vote, motion approved.

So, tell me where the spin is in that. Where was the "smoke-filled" room that made the decision? Oh that's right, the fact that the meeting took place in Valley City is really all you and District 5 need to label the decision as biased.

How about we all admit that the Board of Directors, composed of a cross-section of schools in North Dakota, agreed unanimously that the number should be 400?

[EHS1998]

Please contemplate these 5 questions and you should understand the skepticism.

What entity derived the greatest direct benefit of this decision? Who else benefited from it? Was any other entity impacted by this decision? Were these impacts analysed and discussed as part of the decision making process? Was any feedback solicited by any other entity potentially impacted by this decision?

The VC connection has always been a curiosity to me and obviously caused me additional concern over potential bias. However, honestly, if any other entity came to the board with a proposal that only benefited them and a decision was made with no analysis of the impact of such a decision on others and no feedback was solicited by impacted schools, I would still have a big problem. Yes, they had the ability to make the decision but they should have done more due diligence before making it. This would be a normal course of action in the decision making process. Do you have any thoughts on why this didn't occur? Seems like a pretty big decision with far reaching impacts to make on the spot.

The fact that you can read the above and not see a problem leads me to believe that we will continue to have opposing viewpoints on this.

[The Schwab]

No spin just facts about the meeting:

Attendance: Board of Directors, NDHSAA staff, Al Cruchet--Activities Director of VCHS, Dean Koppelman, Superintendent of VCHS.

VCHS presents request to change number to 400 for Class B schools for basketball and volleyball. Cites various evidence to support decision.

Board discusses, no objections from the board. A few questions from the board for Dean Koppelmen, none negative.

Board discusses motion. Without further input from VCHS staff, changes request to 400 for all activities, including fine arts.

Motion made, vote held.

Kim Knodle, a member of the Board of Directors at the time, and the current principal at VCHS, abstains from voting. Knodle did not participate in discussion during discussion period.

Vote taken, unanimous vote, motion approved.

So, tell me where the spin is in that. Where was the "smoke-filled" room that made the decision? Oh that's right, the fact that the meeting took place in Valley City is really all you and District 5 need to label the decision as biased.

How about we all admit that the Board of Directors, composed of a cross-section of schools in North Dakota, agreed unanimously that the number should be 400?

Do you remember what the evidence was? I am curious as to what it was. I am not hiding behind "one administrator" it is a person that I know has made questionable decisions in the past particularly about co-ops dissolving. If you would like Heimer I would tell you who that member is and I would gladly discuss why I feel that way in a PM.