Basketball Bible

Class B Boys
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:41 pm

heimer wrote:Every board meeting that comes up, someone attempts to introduce the idea of 6-man football, just to keep small towns with an identity.

I don't like the idea at all, as I believe, if we're going to endorse 6-man football, we might as well endorse 3-man halfcourt basketball. Sure, it's not the real game, but who cares as long as the name on the front of the shirt gets represented.

But it does beg the point, with an additional class, would we not have more teams.

We seem to think that our declining number of teams is a reason to swear off another class. But if there was a decent-sized middle class, some co-ops would likely dissolve.

I mean, if we're going to entertain the idea of 6-man football to sustain a small town's identity, then why not let Finley-Sharon and Hope-Page have their own basketball teams by giving them a smaller class to compete in. Heck, we had three teams from Dakota Prairie at one time, so the model works even for kids that attend school together.


6 man footballs a joke. FB needs to drop to 3 classes in my opinion. Have your top 16 in a class/middle 32 in a class/bottom 50 some play 9 man. I don't believe the number of teams would increase at all if 3 classes were introduced in basketball. The reason schools co-op is because one of the schools no longer has the numbers to field a team. I find it hard to believe that adding a class would prompt 15 extra kids to decide to suit up. And I actually remember when Dakota Prairie field 4 teams----Tolna--McVille---Petersberg---Aneta. Now combined they have about 225 kids K-12. Travel is also a concern with adding a 3rd class. With the basketball season being 19 games (21 for super-regional schools) its inevitable that games will need to be played during weeknights...tough on kids if they have to travel 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours one way for games. And YES, I know the class A's do it. I completely disagree with the "town identity" statement.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Indy5 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:33 pm

Heimer love your analogy of 6-man football to 3 man basketball. 6-man isn't really football. But, I also don't see teams dissolving co-ops if another basketball class is added. Once they start, there is really no going back.

9-man football is ok. I'd never want to play it but it's not as much of a mockery as 6-man. 9-man in our state does need to shrink the field though. Pretty sure thats what other states do.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:15 pm

Actually, a couple years ago Minnesota changed their 9man from an 80 yard field to a full length field. I don't know if they still have it narrower or not.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:06 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Actually, a couple years ago Minnesota changed their 9man from an 80 yard field to a full length field. I don't know if they still have it narrower or not.


Its still narrower than a normal field.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby woodchuck10 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:07 pm

winner-within wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:I realize that we have less teams now than before and it defies traditional logic to add a class.

But ND's geography and population distribution really provides a real challenge in creating equitable opportunities for teams to compete. Surely people see this.

I cant get my head around the consolidation argument at all.



dont try get your head around it....just think of the ones that have happened

consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self.
so put sports aside....lets say we live where there is no sports allowed
do we still face the fact that schools are emptying out, and is the reason for consolidation?
this is why schools consolidate even if the tax money is huge to that district, three, four kids in each class does not make a school, in MN thats a home school.

Co-ops are for Sports and Sports alone and Consolidations are for Education and Education alone


Winner your idea looks somewhat like Manitoba has for Hockey. I could be wrong but I was told that the high schools have their own teams still, but the really good players play for a large co-op in a different league. So I suppose for basketball in ND they could play in Class A then. Basically it would be an All-Star team from each district and those 16 teams would play in Class A with the big schools and still keep Class B. The talent would be diminished a lot more.

Just a thought and something I am definitely not for, just throwing it out there
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:23 am

woodchuck10 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:I realize that we have less teams now than before and it defies traditional logic to add a class.

But ND's geography and population distribution really provides a real challenge in creating equitable opportunities for teams to compete. Surely people see this.

I cant get my head around the consolidation argument at all.



dont try get your head around it....just think of the ones that have happened

consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self.


so put sports aside....lets say we live where there is no sports allowed
do we still face the fact that schools are emptying out, and is the reason for consolidation?
this is why schools consolidate even if the tax money is huge to that district, three, four kids in each class does not make a school, in MN thats a home school.

Co-ops are for Sports and Sports alone and Consolidations are for Education and Education alone


Winner your idea looks somewhat like Manitoba has for Hockey. I could be wrong but I was told that the high schools have their own teams still, but the really good players play for a large co-op in a different league. So I suppose for basketball in ND they could play in Class A then. Basically it would be an All-Star team from each district and those 16 teams would play in Class A with the big schools and still keep Class B. The talent would be diminished a lot more.

Just a thought and something I am definitely not for, just throwing it out there


Woodchuck, I have no idea what you are talking about...but, and listen well "I think its time ND in whole starts looking hard at full Public school consolidations, and shying away from quick fix sports co-ops".
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:43 am

IMHO, co-ops are formed to allow kids to have an opportunity to play sports that every student in the decades before them had. It also allows them to remain in, or at least close to, their home town to receive their education. With the age of the internet and on-line classes available to students these days, I don't think there is much of a drop off in education at any small school. If there is, I am sure each parent is well aware of it and has chosen that route for a reason.
When one brings up forced consolidations, I wonder if personal family costs are brought into the equation? It is one thing to travel for a 2 month sport's season. Each family can choose whether or not they want to participate at that point. It is completely another thing to have to travel 9 months for schooling and all the school activities. Personally, I want my children attending a smaller school. It's my personal choice for whatever reason. If school consolidations happen naturally, then so be it. I don't think they should be forced unless financially sound reasons back it up.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby B-oldtimer » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:14 pm

I Agree with what you just said and cooping even has reached limit of distance for number of schools. I know from our school that amount of participation in sports has dropped by number of kids who just don't want to travel and ride the busses back and forth from practices each day. This is especially true of average to below average kids in talent in playing in sports they don't feel its worth effort to just to get to play on occasion with possibility of maybe someday getting to play more. This is change I have seen in my lifetime.+ Since when I was school the play has improved overall but now we have elite group of kids playing sports and total participation in small class b schools have gone way down. The high school I was in we were small class b school of about 50 kids in high school with about 25 boys in high school with at least 20 of boys going out. We were average team winning about half games through our high school years. Now my son is in school today in high school with about 40 kids and about 20 boys and we coop with another school a little bigger than us from our school today we have around 5 kids going out for basketball and other school has around maybe 10 kids going out just enough to field a team. So you see from what I see is participation is down and there's not the passion there was when we were in school for basketball. There are many reasons for this but bottom line is we lost this and interest by younger generation is not there and as older generation disappears or were not as involved with school as much audience and support for class b is continue to diminish. I have a friend says for a lot of rural north Dakota is going to go to traveling team for sports parents and kids that have talent and want to compete will band together and schools won't have team. Its already happened in hockey some across the state. Also for those of you on 6 man football North Dakota already has one school playing 6 man football and was in Montanna state playoffs last year. Its Grenora, ND they are cooped with Montanna school for sports. I think its coming to point of needing to determine what goal of high school athletics is going to be are we going to try to be farm system to try to produce a few quality athletes for colleges with limited number kids participating and very few teams across the state or are we going to try to maximize the number kids playing in sports in general. I fear latter is not going to happen and that was reason activities were started in schools give students more rounded education because participating would teach students elements of working together and competing against oneanother and sportsmanship.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby woodchuck10 » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 pm

winner-within wrote:
woodchuck10 wrote:
winner-within wrote:
EHS1998 wrote:I realize that we have less teams now than before and it defies traditional logic to add a class.

But ND's geography and population distribution really provides a real challenge in creating equitable opportunities for teams to compete. Surely people see this.

I cant get my head around the consolidation argument at all.



dont try get your head around it....just think of the ones that have happened

consolidations that have taken place in ND lets say for instance Northern Cass are not for Sports sake
they are for Education sake and what makes the most sense....are there a few remote areas that would bring on more of a challenge geography wise? sure...but thats not the major Challenge when the idea presents its self.


so put sports aside....lets say we live where there is no sports allowed
do we still face the fact that schools are emptying out, and is the reason for consolidation?
this is why schools consolidate even if the tax money is huge to that district, three, four kids in each class does not make a school, in MN thats a home school.

Co-ops are for Sports and Sports alone and Consolidations are for Education and Education alone


Winner your idea looks somewhat like Manitoba has for Hockey. I could be wrong but I was told that the high schools have their own teams still, but the really good players play for a large co-op in a different league. So I suppose for basketball in ND they could play in Class A then. Basically it would be an All-Star team from each district and those 16 teams would play in Class A with the big schools and still keep Class B. The talent would be diminished a lot more.

Just a thought and something I am definitely not for, just throwing it out there


Woodchuck, I have no idea what you are talking about...but, and listen well "I think its time ND in whole starts looking hard at full Public school consolidations, and shying away from quick fix sports co-ops".


Goodluck with that! I know Belcourt, St. John, Dunseith, Rolla, and Rolette do not want any school consolidations or co-ops in the main sports, excluding North Prairie, and were all within 20 miles with each other.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:05 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:IMHO, co-ops are formed to allow kids to have an opportunity to play sports that every student in the decades before them had. It also allows them to remain in, or at least close to, their home town to receive their education. With the age of the internet and on-line classes available to students these days, I don't think there is much of a drop off in education at any small school. If there is, I am sure each parent is well aware of it and has chosen that route for a reason.
When one brings up forced consolidations, I wonder if personal family costs are brought into the equation? It is one thing to travel for a 2 month sport's season. Each family can choose whether or not they want to participate at that point. It is completely another thing to have to travel 9 months for schooling and all the school activities. Personally, I want my children attending a smaller school. It's my personal choice for whatever reason. If school consolidations happen naturally, then so be it. I don't think they should be forced unless financially sound reasons back it up.


we had one sport...in the 80's... so your statement is false.....I'm sure my folks looked at each other and said gosh I love having the kids in a school with 10 kids or less in a class....but that was also in the 80's....less stress on the parent.
also, you force nothing, its common sense and most are playing sports for 10 months out of the year...so your 2 month theory is a joke...and nobody will force me either.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:54 am

winner-within wrote:we had one sport...in the 80's... so your statement is false.....I'm sure my folks looked at each other and said gosh I love having the kids in a school with 10 kids or less in a class....but that was also in the 80's....less stress on the parent.
also, you force nothing, its common sense and most are playing sports for 10 months out of the year...so your 2 month theory is a joke...and nobody will force me either.


My goodness. I graduated in '81. We had football, basketball and track. 3 sports. As for the 2 month seasons, if you throw in practices they would be closer to 3 months, but my point was distance and time traveling for a sport vs. all year for schooling. If you take into consideration away games, then travel time is cut in half anyway. And yes, parents do say, "I am glad we have a student to teacher ratio of less then 25:1." Common sense seems to be like small schools, slowly slipping away :D.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:27 pm

B-oldtimer wrote:I Agree with what you just said and cooping even has reached limit of distance for number of schools. I know from our school that amount of participation in sports has dropped by number of kids who just don't want to travel and ride the busses back and forth from practices each day. This is especially true of average to below average kids in talent in playing in sports they don't feel its worth effort to just to get to play on occasion with possibility of maybe someday getting to play more. This is change I have seen in my lifetime.+ Since when I was school the play has improved overall but now we have elite group of kids playing sports and total participation in small class b schools have gone way down. The high school I was in we were small class b school of about 50 kids in high school with about 25 boys in high school with at least 20 of boys going out. We were average team winning about half games through our high school years. Now my son is in school today in high school with about 40 kids and about 20 boys and we coop with another school a little bigger than us from our school today we have around 5 kids going out for basketball and other school has around maybe 10 kids going out just enough to field a team. So you see from what I see is participation is down and there's not the passion there was when we were in school for basketball. There are many reasons for this but bottom line is we lost this and interest by younger generation is not there and as older generation disappears or were not as involved with school as much audience and support for class b is continue to diminish. I have a friend says for a lot of rural north Dakota is going to go to traveling team for sports parents and kids that have talent and want to compete will band together and schools won't have team. Its already happened in hockey some across the state. Also for those of you on 6 man football North Dakota already has one school playing 6 man football and was in Montanna state playoffs last year. Its Grenora, ND they are cooped with Montanna school for sports. I think its coming to point of needing to determine what goal of high school athletics is going to be are we going to try to be farm system to try to produce a few quality athletes for colleges with limited number kids participating and very few teams across the state or are we going to try to maximize the number kids playing in sports in general. I fear latter is not going to happen and that was reason activities were started in schools give students more rounded education because participating would teach students elements of working together and competing against oneanother and sportsmanship.


Grenora or no Grenora, six-man football is not football, just as 3-on-3 halfcourt basketball is not basketball. As soon as NDHSAA allows 6-man, there will be a clamoring for reduced-numbered basketball, just so towns can have their name on the front of a jersey.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby heimer » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Bumping for the start of the season.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby HammerTime » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:05 am

Even though I have only been on this site for a short time, I can't believe it took me this long to find this thread. This is a work of art. So, just for a moment, step back and appreciate the fact that someone put this together.
To be quite honest, I agree with Heimer. I have always thought that North Dakota needed a third class. I have two points for why I support Heimer.
1) this affects all of the rest of North Dakota high school activities. This affects volleyball. This affects wrestling. This affects fine arts. This affects golf and track and baseball. The only thing this doesn't affect would be football. So before you pull the "I support change like this in football but not basketball because it takes fewer players" argument (looking at you NDPlayin), consider that this affects everything accept football. The coops for basketball and all the rest are becoming insane. Linton-HMB, Mayport-CG, Finley/Sharon-Hope/Page just to name a few.
2) This whole argument about Valley City needs to stop. This is the same argument that would have happened if Grafton had dropped when the Internet was popular. Or the whole slew of teams from the old North Star Conference back in the late 80s and early 90s. they went through a very similar problem that is going on now: nobody but old people want to live in small towns. Pretty soon, we'll see Turtle Mountain dropping, then Jamestown, then maybe Devils Lake. This 325 cutoff thing is a bit outdated. We have schools in Fargo and bismarck growing faster than they can keep up. The big schools will keep getting bigger, while the medium sized schools in class A keep becoming smaller and smaller and have to drop. Now, if you look at the problem from a class B perspective, I have seen many arguments and debates about what to do with private schools. Some say they have an advantage. Others say they don't. And what about some of those bigger B schools that simply are better because they have more kids. Boys Basketball has not seen this problem as badly as girls basketball has. I've seen the many state tournaments where private schools beat everybody. I've heard all the rumors about the transfers that happen during the offseason. I think the best solution is a three class system.

And what do we have to lose? If it works out, that means small schools would have to stop cooping to remain competative. It means Valley City gets what it wants. It means we nip this whole problem in the bud before it starts with the next school that thinks it's too small to compete. It fixes nearly all of our problems.
And these are the big reasons why I support a 3 class system.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:45 am

Here's how you fix the problem as I've said before. Expand the top class to 30 (or something around that), split the top and bottom half into AA and A. Have 4 teams from each play for a state title, have the winners play each other for an A/AA title.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby The Schwab » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:43 pm

scc wrote:
HammerTime wrote:...

1) this affects all of the rest of North Dakota high school activities. This affects volleyball. This affects wrestling. This affects fine arts. This affects golf and track and baseball. The only thing this doesn't affect would be football. So before you pull the "I support change like this in football but not basketball because it takes fewer players" argument (looking at you NDPlayin), consider that this affects everything accept football. The coops for basketball and all the rest are becoming insane. Linton-HMB, Mayport-CG, Finley/Sharon-Hope/Page just to name a few.

...

I hope I don't sidetrack this topic too much, but just so you know, May-Port CG is a consolidation, not a co-op. They're not together strictly for sports reasons. It's one school. Oh, and it's only been that way for over 20 years, and it was Mayville-Portland for 20 years before that!


I was going to mention that but I figured someone else would take care of it!
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby HammerTime » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:46 pm

Well, I am very sorry for that factual mistake. I am not from the area so I would not know.
The Schwab wrote:
scc wrote:
HammerTime wrote:...

1) this affects all of the rest of North Dakota high school activities. This affects volleyball. This affects wrestling. This affects fine arts. This affects golf and track and baseball. The only thing this doesn't affect would be football. So before you pull the "I support change like this in football but not basketball because it takes fewer players" argument (looking at you NDPlayin), consider that this affects everything accept football. The coops for basketball and all the rest are becoming insane. Linton-HMB, Mayport-CG, Finley/Sharon-Hope/Page just to name a few.

...

I hope I don't sidetrack this topic too much, but just so you know, May-Port CG is a consolidation, not a co-op. They're not together strictly for sports reasons. It's one school. Oh, and it's only been that way for over 20 years, and it was Mayville-Portland for 20 years before that!


I was going to mention that but I figured someone else would take care of it!
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby HammerTime » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:51 pm

HammerTime wrote:Well, I am very sorry for that factual mistake. I am not from the area so I would not know.
The Schwab wrote:
scc wrote:
HammerTime wrote:...

1) this affects all of the rest of North Dakota high school activities. This affects volleyball. This affects wrestling. This affects fine arts. This affects golf and track and baseball. The only thing this doesn't affect would be football. So before you pull the "I support change like this in football but not basketball because it takes fewer players" argument (looking at you NDPlayin), consider that this affects everything accept football. The coops for basketball and all the rest are becoming insane. Linton-HMB, Mayport-CG, Finley/Sharon-Hope/Page just to name a few.

...

I hope I don't sidetrack this topic too much, but just so you know, May-Port CG is a consolidation, not a co-op. They're not together strictly for sports reasons. It's one school. Oh, and it's only been that way for over 20 years, and it was Mayville-Portland for 20 years before that!


I was going to mention that but I figured someone else would take care of it!

I'll admit that Mayport-CG was a bad example. I definately should have said something else
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:55 pm

Even the other examples are not that great....Linton-HMB = 2 schools, FSHP = 2 schools. Just because there are a lot of towns listed in the name doesn't mean its a large coop.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby B-oldtimer » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:37 am

But it does mean it usually large area that these schools cover and at one time these towns were separate schools before they combined when ever. Geographic size of some these coops are amazing they are near some state sizes or half of some states. It is what is that we experienced depopulation over last 60 years in rural ND. I think were going to see some change in that in next 10 years as state but I doubt we will see what we had in the past. I think were seeing some of it already in Western ND and I think it will expand state wide eventually. This should help remaining schools at least come to some stabilization size and not worry if they will be a school in the future.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:07 am

winning any championship shouldn't be based on size per say to make it easier or more satisfying to the fan or town...remember thousands of people still think Epping won the State B in 77' why? because they almost did and were a very small school........I agree with Schwab, get a bunch more in the top current A Class so the its harder to make it to state for them....I would enjoy watching an upset in that Class as much as the Current B
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Sleepy » Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:59 am

Some good points by Hammertime. Not sure about the "big schools keep getting bigger". That has changed in the last five years with the new school openings in Fargo and Bismarck - South/Davies, West Fargo/Sheyenne and Bismarck/is it Legacy? I think Minot will now be by far the biggest AAA school.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby winner-within » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:25 pm

Sleepy wrote:Some good points by Hammertime. Not sure about the "big schools keep getting bigger". That has changed in the last five years with the new school openings in Fargo and Bismarck - South/Davies, West Fargo/Sheyenne and Bismarck/is it Legacy? I think Minot will now be by far the biggest AAA school.


there is no AAA in ND BBall.... :)
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby go maji » Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:47 pm

Sleepy wrote:Some good points by Hammertime. Not sure about the "big schools keep getting bigger". That has changed in the last five years with the new school openings in Fargo and Bismarck - South/Davies, West Fargo/Sheyenne and Bismarck/is it Legacy? I think Minot will now be by far the biggest AAA school.


Minot is getting a new highschool just outside of town, so that should lower Minots' enrollment.
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Re: Basketball Bible

Postby Hinsa » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:14 am

I take umbrage with Hammertime's comment that "only old people want to live in small towns." That is just not true. Where I live we are experiencing growth as more and more 20 and 30-somethings move out of the larger cities to raise their family in a smaller town. Our school has reversed the trend of shrinkage and is now growing. Yet we participate in a co-op because our neighbors could not have teams on their own. Our co-op is working out very well and doing what co-ops are intended to do: provide opportunities for participation where none would exist if the school was on its own.
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