What would it take...

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What would it take...

Postby Flip » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:00 pm

Lots of talk about heimer's "super 2" in the girls forum. I don't believe we are anywhere close to leaving the current system so my question is what would it take to move to a "super 2" or a 3 class system?
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Re: What would it take...

Postby heimer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:33 pm

A miracle in common sense or BOD members with a set.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby cubsfan » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:49 am

I think it would take a decade of domination of big class B schools. There would have to be 7 or 8 state titles and a number of other big schools that qualify for the state tournament.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby Sportsrube » Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:28 am

I don't see it happening - too much change for the NDHSAA and for the majority of people around the state. This state is ultra-conservative and does not handle change well and too many people in the small towns hate change and won't want their school administration to vote for it, they would rather cling to that idealistic notion of that one "magical" year or two rather than vote for what to them would be a drastic change in ND basketball.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:34 am

I think the only way it starts getting discussed is if Watford, Central Cass, Kindred, Stanley, etc. all start to get to or projected to be at that 325 mark around the same time.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby NDplayin » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:44 pm

I, for one, can not philosophically agree with the idea of a "Super2" for one very simple reason. If schools within a certain enrollment range belong together at the state tournament level, they belong together at the regional tournament level, district tournament level (if their is one) and the entire regular season. If they are separated at all those other levels, then they should be separated at the state tournament level as well.

I love a David vs. Goliath, love it. It's the most exciting moments in sports... WHEN it naturally occurs. What is being discussed here is a manufactured David vs. Goliath. You're putting a group of schools in a different league, division, conference, whatever you want to call it based on their enrollment bracket... and then after you find out which are most successful from that league, removing them and throwing them in another enrollment bracket just for a week.

Even worse, you are intentionally putting those schools on separate sides of the bracket in that tournament so that you can save your manufactured David vs. Goliath match-ups for one grand Koom-Bye-Yah on that Saturday night (yes, I borrowed that language because it applies much more accurately to this plan than anything it was originally applied to).

I hate to break the news to some of you. High School Sports is not about your entertainment level, and the systems by which High School Sports are controlled should not be about making guarantees that we get a certain sized school vs. a certain different sized school just so we can sell more tickets, get our favorite type of fan-base in the seats, and give all the neutral fans an easily defined underdog to cheer for. It should be about which plan would be most right and most fair for the high school participants who dedicate themselves to the season and nothing else. If all we want to do is manufacture a David vs Goliath by keeping enrollment brackets separate in one tournament and then putting them together in the next tournament but making sure to keep them in separate brackets, then we might as well call ourselves Professional Wrestling and invite Vince McMahon to replace Lee Timmerman for the broadcast.

For the record, I do not support our current system 100%. If you follow the thread I started on here a month or so ago, you know that very well. However, at least our current system clearly states that schools in this certain enrollment bracket belong together and schools in a different enrollment bracket belong together. Agreeing or disagreeing with the numbers that define those brackets is one thing... saying that we set up some different brackets but then suddenly jam a couple of them together the final week of the year just so we can come together on some Saturday night and sing Koom-Bye-Yah for three unearned, manufactured David vs. Goliath match-ups is totally disregarding what is right and fair for the student athletes of the state in favor of what has the most potential to entertain you the last three games of the year.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby winner-within » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:49 pm

Its hear say, but somebody said that they may use RPI to determine Region pair ups for the State Class B??
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Re: What would it take...

Postby scruffy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:01 am

Hopefully it never happens as the number of schools in the state continues to decline. They have it in South Dakota..and most people there say it destroyed all three tournaments...
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Re: What would it take...

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:50 am

Someone over on the girls basketball thread posted the current high school enrollment of every school in the state.

If the list is accurate, North Dakota only has 12 schools with an enrollment between 200 and 650 students.
We only have 8 schools with an enrollment between 250 and 650 students.
We don't have nearly enough medium-sized schools to justify a third class.

'A' and 'B' fits the state of North Dakota.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby classB4ever » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:39 am

What would it take...??????

You can even use Class A as an example for small schools being able to compete. Just look at Shanley with an approximate enrollment of 224 (State Champs) and St. Mary's with approximate enrollment of 340, both did quite well and are the 2 smallest class A schools in the state. They beat schools with enrollments of up to nearly 2000 students. :idea:
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Re: What would it take...

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:10 pm

If you exchanged SM and Shanley with VC and DL you might have a point.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby classB4ever » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:36 pm

:idea: >>>>> :D
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Re: What would it take...

Postby justplayalready » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:56 pm

classB4ever wrote:What would it take...??????

You can even use Class A as an example for small schools being able to compete. Just look at Shanley with an approximate enrollment of 224 (State Champs) and St. Mary's with approximate enrollment of 340, both did quite well and are the 2 smallest class A schools in the state. They beat schools with enrollments of up to nearly 2000 students. :idea:



I could have a class of 10, and win the A...if I have the right ten pick my school. :mrgreen:
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Re: What would it take...

Postby winner-within » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:58 pm

I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

I'm for 1 Class before messing with busting up the B schools.....

The numbers prove it and answer any questions or suggestions, Its like building another restaurant hoping to feed the folks who eat out... and things were doing just fine with one.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:20 pm

winner-within wrote:I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

2 random teams, assuming equal ability, would win the tournament 25% of the time. Being a far superior team, which the class A teams would be, will add way more than 5% title equity.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby eyeinthesky » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:42 am

winner-within wrote:I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

I'm for 1 Class before messing with busting up the B schools.....

The numbers prove it and answer any questions or suggestions, Its like building another restaurant hoping to feed the folks who eat out... and things were doing just fine with one.


I would take that bet. The difference between the two classes are huge. The two best Class A teams would win the vast majority of games in a Class B tournament. Just one example of the huge gap of ability would be comparing this years Belcourt boys (2-17) and Four Winds (24-3). Belcourt is a team that won once in the WDA. Four Winds were the 2013 State Tournament runner-up. Four Winds beat Belcourt by six points!

Teams like Shanley, St. Mary's and GFRR would have completely dominated the 2013 State B Tournament.
Last edited by eyeinthesky on Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:05 am

winner-within wrote:I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

I'm for 1 Class before messing with busting up the B schools.....

The numbers prove it and answer any questions or suggestions, Its like building another restaurant hoping to feed the folks who eat out... and things were doing just fine with one.


I can think of 2 years where the state B champion would have probably beat the class A champion, 96 and 97, other than that I'm not sure if they would be able to compete. Tough to say since I'm a class B guy.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby eyeinthesky » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:29 am

The Schwab wrote:
winner-within wrote:I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

I'm for 1 Class before messing with busting up the B schools.....

The numbers prove it and answer any questions or suggestions, Its like building another restaurant hoping to feed the folks who eat out... and things were doing just fine with one.


I can think of 2 years where the state B champion would have probably beat the class A champion, 96 and 97, other than that I'm not sure if they would be able to compete. Tough to say since I'm a class B guy.


Were those the MPCG teams in '96 & '97? If so, I agree they would have been tough to beat.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:37 am

Yes they were, Beulah last year might have had a shot to keep it to a single digit game just based on depth
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Re: What would it take...

Postby CC1983 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:39 am

eyeinthesky wrote:
The Schwab wrote:
winner-within wrote:I would be willing to bet that if you threw the 2 best Class A teams into the Class B tournament (total 8 teams) year in year out for the last 25 years that the results would not be that that class A teams won even 30% percent of the tournaments.........

I'm for 1 Class before messing with busting up the B schools.....

The numbers prove it and answer any questions or suggestions, Its like building another restaurant hoping to feed the folks who eat out... and things were doing just fine with one.


I can think of 2 years where the state B champion would have probably beat the class A champion, 96 and 97, other than that I'm not sure if they would be able to compete. Tough to say since I'm a class B guy.


Were those the MPCG teams in '96 & '97? If so, I agree they would have been tough to beat.

I think NorthStar of 2010-2011 would have been able to hold their own.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:49 am

YEP!....and nobody picked Milnor...not even a pollster


ND Class A Player......Taller, Stronger, Smarter, More Coachable??? Nope...
ND Class A Player...... more competition throughout career, more to choose from at each position, more facility exposure, better Coaches and trainers, more one sport athletes, born with same skill level???? YEP..

remember I said not even 30%...why...because things come together, things level out due to figuring things out...same reason the final 64 are not as predictable as it used to be...is ND Class B really that scarred of ND Class A in Basketball????.......I'm not

put some kids under one roof, have your tryouts for the team, and play a game of Basketball....the Coaches and Players that work the hardest will win the Game...no matter what town or city is on the front of the jersey in NORTH DAKOTA .... Guaranteed
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Re: What would it take...

Postby The Schwab » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:58 am

now you are talking about 2 different things, If we put the top 2 class A teams in the class B tournament the class A teams would win 90 percent of the time if not more, the reason being players 3-8, players 1 and 2 on both teams would be similar.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby Flip » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:12 pm

I took a quick glance at the past state champions thread and saw regions 1 and 2 have won 8 of the 24 (33%) state championships. To think that the WDA and EDC champ would less than regions 1 and 2 is absolutely ridiculous.

Like I said earlier 2 teams taken at random will win 25% of the time.
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Re: What would it take...

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:41 pm

Flip wrote:I took a quick glance at the past state champions thread and saw regions 1 and 2 have won 8 of the 24 (33%) state championships. To think that the WDA and EDC champ would less than regions 1 and 2 is absolutely ridiculous.

Like I said earlier 2 teams taken at random will win 25% of the time.


thats less than 30% isnt it
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Re: What would it take...

Postby winner-within » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:50 pm

The Schwab wrote:now you are talking about 2 different things, If we put the top 2 class A teams in the class B tournament the class A teams would win 90 percent of the time if not more, the reason being players 3-8, players 1 and 2 on both teams would be similar.


yes I am.....but I've been talking about one of them for a long time

and your 90% is way off in a 25 year span...Why? because of adaptation
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