Broken

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Re: Broken

Postby lovwatchingsports » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:15 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:I have heard that midkota has approached many area schools about a coop for next season. Have also heard rumors of rolette going with rolla and DP going w Lakota. Haven't heard anything about Munich-stark but can't see them holding on for too many more years. If midkota, RW, and MS cooped in the next few years region 4 would be down to 11 teams. On the flip side have also heard rumors of minnewaukan fielding their own team in the future.

IMO I think this is why we needed the three class system awhile ago, its too late now.
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Re: Broken

Postby Tradish4life » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:59 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:In a 4 region system, this year Rugby, Northstar and FW all could very well be in the same region based on geography. You could also have Lamoure, Shiloh, and South Border in the same region. Couldn't a person make the same argument that one of the first 3 would have to stay home from state, while one of the other three aren't better? Point is, no matter how you break it down the same argument can probably be made in any given year. And with not enough out of region games (teams traveling across the whole state to play other supposed top teams) it really is too hard to tell just who the best teams are. Beulah, Northstar, Trinity, and Oak Grove are really the only "top" teams I can think of that really went out of there way to play the best competition.

FOURWINDS PLAYED SOME TALENTED TEAMS ALSO SO DONT LEAVE THEM OUT...OUT OF THE FOUR YOU PICKED WHOS GOING ON TO THE STATE TOURNEY 2013...JUST TWO OF THEM...
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Re: Broken

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:02 pm

Tradish4life wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:In a 4 region system, this year Rugby, Northstar and FW all could very well be in the same region based on geography. You could also have Lamoure, Shiloh, and South Border in the same region. Couldn't a person make the same argument that one of the first 3 would have to stay home from state, while one of the other three aren't better? Point is, no matter how you break it down the same argument can probably be made in any given year. And with not enough out of region games (teams traveling across the whole state to play other supposed top teams) it really is too hard to tell just who the best teams are. Beulah, Northstar, Trinity, and Oak Grove are really the only "top" teams I can think of that really went out of there way to play the best competition.

FOURWINDS PLAYED SOME TALENTED TEAMS ALSO SO DONT LEAVE THEM OUT...OUT OF THE FOUR YOU PICKED WHOS GOING ON TO THE STATE TOURNEY 2013...JUST TWO OF THEM...


We get it you follow Four Winds..and no one is leaving them out especially if you look at the State Predictions page. STOP using ALL-CAPS.
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:05 pm

Tradish4life wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:In a 4 region system, this year Rugby, Northstar and FW all could very well be in the same region based on geography. You could also have Lamoure, Shiloh, and South Border in the same region. Couldn't a person make the same argument that one of the first 3 would have to stay home from state, while one of the other three aren't better? Point is, no matter how you break it down the same argument can probably be made in any given year. And with not enough out of region games (teams traveling across the whole state to play other supposed top teams) it really is too hard to tell just who the best teams are. Beulah, Northstar, Trinity, and Oak Grove are really the only "top" teams I can think of that really went out of there way to play the best competition.

FOURWINDS PLAYED SOME TALENTED TEAMS ALSO SO DONT LEAVE THEM OUT...OUT OF THE FOUR YOU PICKED WHOS GOING ON TO THE STATE TOURNEY 2013...JUST TWO OF THEM...


You obviously didn't read my post through very well or read back in the topic to see what we have been talking about....
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Re: Broken

Postby Xfactor » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:07 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:
Xfactor wrote:I've always been in favor of the current system because I love the excitement involved with it, but because of the lack of talent around the state I wish we would have a 4 region system. It's unfortunate that the best teams aren't always in state but that's just how it works. However, in the past there's always been good teams in the state tournament no matter who wins the regions, but as someone previously stated, this state tournament will be awful to watch because most of the teams are so bad. I'm not trying to take anything away from them, but I love watching the State B so I want there to be decent competition.


How can you even make this statement? Almost every team in there right now was ranked in the top 10 at the end of the season and throughout most of the season. You make it seem like there was only 3-4 good teams in the entire state.

That's because there is only 4 legitimately good teams in the state- Beulah, North Star, Dickinson Trinity, and Four Winds. Rugby and Trenton could prove me wrong if they do well in state but I'm not sold on them.
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:00 pm

The teams are still not bad. I think the other teams in the tournament are going to prove people wrong this weekend about everyone thinking on DT, Beulah, Northstar, and FW are good.
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Re: Broken

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:02 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:The teams are still not bad. I think the other teams in the tournament are going to prove people wrong this weekend about everyone thinking on DT, Beulah, Northstar, and FW are good.


Milnor beat a very good Oak grove team. Milnor is NO slouch!
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Re: Broken

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:04 am

Xfactor wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
Xfactor wrote:I've always been in favor of the current system because I love the excitement involved with it, but because of the lack of talent around the state I wish we would have a 4 region system. It's unfortunate that the best teams aren't always in state but that's just how it works. However, in the past there's always been good teams in the state tournament no matter who wins the regions, but as someone previously stated, this state tournament will be awful to watch because most of the teams are so bad. I'm not trying to take anything away from them, but I love watching the State B so I want there to be decent competition.


How can you even make this statement? Almost every team in there right now was ranked in the top 10 at the end of the season and throughout most of the season. You make it seem like there was only 3-4 good teams in the entire state.

That's because there is only 4 legitimately good teams in the state- Beulah, North Star, Dickinson Trinity, and Four Winds. Rugby and Trenton could prove me wrong if they do well in state but I'm not sold on them.


This whole entire thread is based on the assumption that we have a top tier of four teams in the state (only two are remaining). We will find out soon whether there is any truth to that assumption.
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:11 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:This whole entire thread is based on the assumption that we have a top tier of four teams in the state (only two are remaining). We will find out soon whether there is any truth to that assumption.

I would say this thread was based on the fact that there are 5 top tier teams and 2 of them were automatically eliminated. I'll go with Beulah, North Star, Dickinson Trinity, Rugby, Four Winds as top tier.

Why? A wise man once told it that your losses mean more than your victories. In other words, a loss to a weaker team hurts you image more than a victory over a better team helps your image. If you look at those top five teams, Beulah's and Dickinson Trinity's only losses are to each other- Rugby's only loss is to North Star- North Star's only loss is to Four Winds- and Four Winds only losses are to Class A Devils Lake and Beulah. None of those losses do much to tarnish their image in my mind. Every other team has a loss to a team that I think a top tier team should beat.

Now you're right- that's my assumption (and many other's I think)... however, I'm not sure if we can ever "prove" that the assumption is either true or false. I kinda of decide who I think is top tier based on the regular season- and if one of those teams gets beat I consider it a Cinderella situation. If one of the three remaining teams gets beat I'll call it a Cinderella and consider it one of the great things about sports. Either way I can tell you this, I still wish we had a system that would have made it possible to have all 5 of those teams in the tournament, and if one of them would have lost to a Cinderella I would have considered it their fault- not the systems
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:17 pm

FW lost to Northstar, not Devils Lake. They beat Class A Turtle Mtn.

Who are TLMM loses to? Berthold? Oak Grove?
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Re: Broken

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:19 pm

I believe TLMM lost to shiloh in the Mandan Tournament and garrison in the region tournament
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:56 pm

Because there is no perfect system, there's never going to be 100% consensus regarding what the best system is... The debate will always be over what system is closest to perfect. I realize not everyone is going to fall head over heels with the 4 region idea, especially when they don't understand it. I'm passionate about the topic and love the debate... However, there are a few arguments that really frustrate me, and I feel like I better address them now before my frustration boils over and I react in a less than civil manner.

The "Climb Mountains... Sail the Sea... Such is Life..." Argument
Let's get real. Do you think there wouldn't be Mountains and Seas in the 4 region idea? In reality, the Mountains get taller and the Seas get rougher.

First, it's harder to qualify for the 4 regions than 8 and the regional tournament field get WAY tougher. No more 1 seeds blowing away 4 seeds that may have only won 10% of their games all season. No more first round cake walks. Start taking two teams from 4 combined districts to a regional tournament and there will be no easy game, no cake walk, every team will be a good team.

There's no intention of making anything easier in this idea... no hint of "giving everybody a medal." If you want to talk about mountains, let's talk about mountains. Geographically, Region 7 is bordered by Region 5 and Region 8. I invite anyone to take a poll of Regions 5 and 8... ask all the coaches this hypothetical, if in this 2012/13 season, had their region been combined with region 7 and two teams getting to go... would their odds of making state gone up or down? We all know the answer- their odds go down... their mountain gets taller, the face more rugged; the sea gets rougher, the swells more violent.

I get it, the argument is about facing challenges and overcoming adversity, and the thought that life isn't always fair. All of which are a key part of the educational process... do you think that really goes away in the 4 region idea? No, those lessons remain. The important thing is that they are more evenly applied to everybody.

Right now: Someone has to climb Mount Everest to go to state while someone else skips over an ant hill.

4 Regions: Everybody gets a mountain... never an identical mountain, never perfectly evenly difficult... but much more consistently similar.


The "No one should be able to back their way into state with a loss" argument
This one bugs me for a couple reasons. Maybe the most because I think is shows a misunderstanding of how 4 regions works. The loser of the championship game is not always automatically moving on. In the common circumstance that the loser of the championship game didn't already play the winner of the 3rd place game in that tournament, those two teams return the next night for what's called a challenge game- winner moves on as the 2 seed.

Second, the idea that losing a game is always "backing in" to state. I'd say just as often, a team who won backs into state. I apologize for "picking on" one of the state tourney teams here, but the debate demands it. Shiloh Christian has losses to 4 region 7 teams this season... Dickinson Trinity, Mott-Regent, Beulah, and Hazen in that order. Now, if Shiloh had gotten hot and beat a top tier team in tournaments I would have said they played their best ball at the best time of year and called them a Cinderella.... That's not the case. They beat Washburn, Flasher, and Garrison in that order. Be honest with yourselves, can you really tell me that Shiloh didn't "back into state" even more than if Beulah and North Star had gotten to go after losing to Trinity and Four Winds?

The "We'll lose the great regional championship atmosphere if two teams go" argument
I know this to be false from experience.

First, I think the misunderstanding about the presence of the challenge game contributes to this one. Again, the loser of the championship game is not an automatic qualifier... very often they have to survive that challenge game to get to go. Because of the challenge game, It is extremely important to not only win the championship- but win the 3rd place game. Imagine actually having a meaningful 3rd place game adding to the atmosphere... In the current system that game is played out just to bring in extra fans and both teams no their season is over. In the four region system, those two teams are still fighting for life- so are their crowds. Plus the winner of the game now has a true rooting interest in the championship.

Second, if we're honest we'll realize there is more to a regional championship game than just qualifying for state... there is the pride of being the champion. News flash... it is twice as difficult and twice as rare to win one of 4 regions than it is to win one of 8. There's also twice as much pride associated with it. Crowds go crazy (in both games!) atmosphere is awesome.
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Re: Broken

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:57 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:FW lost to Northstar, not Devils Lake. They beat Class A Turtle Mtn.

Who are TLMM loses to? Berthold? Oak Grove?


Oak Grove
Hawley (#3 in MN Class AA) 80-71
Dickinson Trinity 71-55
Region Championship: Milnor 73-70

Four Winds-Minnewaukan
North Star 72-71
Beulah 77-60

Turtle Lake-Mercer-McClusky
Shiloh Christian 63-57
Berthold 62-59 OT
Region Semifinals: Garrison 56-46

Berthold
Trenton 54-52
Des Lacs-Burlington 64-60 OT
Region 3rd Place: Des Lacs-Burlington 60-58

Des Lacs-Burlington
Beulah 73-48
Rugby 59-46
North Star 87-55
Berthold 58-54 OT
Rugby 69-47

Powers Lake
Trenton 66-64
Trenton 67-54
Region Quarterfinals: North Shore-Plaza 60-54
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:21 pm

As I look over that evidence, I could consider listing Oak Grove as the 6th top tier team (obviously just my opinion). While Powers Lake and TLM don't have many losses- they lost to the wrong type of teams to meet my definition of top tier.

To use your words Run, none of the teams on that list are a "Slouch" and on the right night anything can happen. I just see a separation there. How many "levels" would you say their usually are? I would break it down like this most years.

Top Tier ( The top 4-6 teams)
Great (approximately the next 10- give or take)
Good ( don't know how many... the types of teams that have significantly more wins as losses. 15-5.)
Average... (Teams a little above or a little below .500)
Not Bad (significantly below .500)
Bad. (Struggle to get more than a few wins)
Bad.
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:59 pm

If there's only 4-6 top tier teams each year, teams that by your definition are the only ones that deserve to go to state, why not just have 4 regions and the champion of each advance to a 4 team state tourney? Oh wait, then you and others would still complain that Northstar and Beulah were eliminated in two of those regions and they were better than the other two representatives. But if there's only 4-6 top tier teams we have to eliminate the 8 team state tournament because those other 2-4 teams are bad and will make the tourney boring.
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:21 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:If there's only 4-6 top tier teams each year, teams that by your definition are the only ones that deserve to go to state, why not just have 4 regions and the champion of each advance to a 4 team state tourney? Oh wait, then you and others would still complain that Northstar and Beulah were eliminated in two of those regions and they were better than the other two representatives. But if there's only 4-6 top tier teams we have to eliminate the 8 team state tournament because those other 2-4 teams are bad and will make the tourney boring.

Oh give me a break! I work hard to stay civil on here but you are making it really difficult!

I never EVER said the "top tier" teams are the only ones that deserve to make state. Never!

I've also repeatedly said that I love when top tier teams get beat by Cinderellas- that's one of the great things about sports.

I've never said I only want the top tier teams in the tournament.

What I have said is that I'd prefer a system where there's the OPPORTUNITY for all top tier teams to go and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

I could respect the fact that you disagree with my opinion if you could argue against it without putting words in my mouth
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Re: Broken

Postby NorthDakota11 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:33 am

ndlionsfan wrote:If there's only 4-6 top tier teams each year, teams that by your definition are the only ones that deserve to go to state, why not just have 4 regions and the champion of each advance to a 4 team state tourney? Oh wait, then you and others would still complain that Northstar and Beulah were eliminated in two of those regions and they were better than the other two representatives. But if there's only 4-6 top tier teams we have to eliminate the 8 team state tournament because those other 2-4 teams are bad and will make the tourney boring.


NDLionsfan, couldn't have said it better myself.

NDplayin wrote:Because there is no perfect system, there's never going to be 100% consensus regarding what the best system is... The debate will always be over what system is closest to perfect. I realize not everyone is going to fall head over heels with the 4 region idea, especially when they don't understand it. I'm passionate about the topic and love the debate... However, there are a few arguments that really frustrate me, and I feel like I better address them now before my frustration boils over and I react in a less than civil manner.

The "Climb Mountains... Sail the Sea... Such is Life..." Argument
Let's get real. Do you think there wouldn't be Mountains and Seas in the 4 region idea? In reality, the Mountains get taller and the Seas get rougher.

First, it's harder to qualify for the 4 regions than 8 and the regional tournament field get WAY tougher. No more 1 seeds blowing away 4 seeds that may have only won 10% of their games all season. No more first round cake walks. Start taking two teams from 4 combined districts to a regional tournament and there will be no easy game, no cake walk, every team will be a good team.

There's no intention of making anything easier in this idea... no hint of "giving everybody a medal." If you want to talk about mountains, let's talk about mountains. Geographically, Region 7 is bordered by Region 5 and Region 8. I invite anyone to take a poll of Regions 5 and 8... ask all the coaches this hypothetical, if in this 2012/13 season, had their region been combined with region 7 and two teams getting to go... would their odds of making state gone up or down? We all know the answer- their odds go down... their mountain gets taller, the face more rugged; the sea gets rougher, the swells more violent.

I get it, the argument is about facing challenges and overcoming adversity, and the thought that life isn't always fair. All of which are a key part of the educational process... do you think that really goes away in the 4 region idea? No, those lessons remain. The important thing is that they are more evenly applied to everybody.

Right now: Someone has to climb Mount Everest to go to state while someone else skips over an ant hill.

4 Regions: Everybody gets a mountain... never an identical mountain, never perfectly evenly difficult... but much more consistently similar.


The "No one should be able to back their way into state with a loss" argument
This one bugs me for a couple reasons. Maybe the most because I think is shows a misunderstanding of how 4 regions works. The loser of the championship game is not always automatically moving on. In the common circumstance that the loser of the championship game didn't already play the winner of the 3rd place game in that tournament, those two teams return the next night for what's called a challenge game- winner moves on as the 2 seed.

Second, the idea that losing a game is always "backing in" to state. I'd say just as often, a team who won backs into state. I apologize for "picking on" one of the state tourney teams here, but the debate demands it. Shiloh Christian has losses to 4 region 7 teams this season... Dickinson Trinity, Mott-Regent, Beulah, and Hazen in that order. Now, if Shiloh had gotten hot and beat a top tier team in tournaments I would have said they played their best ball at the best time of year and called them a Cinderella.... That's not the case. They beat Washburn, Flasher, and Garrison in that order. Be honest with yourselves, can you really tell me that Shiloh didn't "back into state" even more than if Beulah and North Star had gotten to go after losing to Trinity and Four Winds?

The "We'll lose the great regional championship atmosphere if two teams go" argument
I know this to be false from experience.

First, I think the misunderstanding about the presence of the challenge game contributes to this one. Again, the loser of the championship game is not an automatic qualifier... very often they have to survive that challenge game to get to go. Because of the challenge game, It is extremely important to not only win the championship- but win the 3rd place game. Imagine actually having a meaningful 3rd place game adding to the atmosphere... In the current system that game is played out just to bring in extra fans and both teams no their season is over. In the four region system, those two teams are still fighting for life- so are their crowds. Plus the winner of the game now has a true rooting interest in the championship.

Second, if we're honest we'll realize there is more to a regional championship game than just qualifying for state... there is the pride of being the champion. News flash... it is twice as difficult and twice as rare to win one of 4 regions than it is to win one of 8. There's also twice as much pride associated with it. Crowds go crazy (in both games!) atmosphere is awesome.


I think where the misunderstanding comes from NDPlayin is that you are changing what you originally said. I believe this is the first time we are hearing of this challenge game. This would make more sense, but now instead of giving one team in each region a second chance you're giving two teams a second chance... you are adjusting you're plan and that's good. But they already had the chance... why give a team thats potentially lost to a team THREE times in the same season a chance to play that same team a fourth time in the State Tournament... So I propose we add this to your proposal. You cannot advance to the State Tournament if you have lost to the same team three times in the same season.
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Re: Broken

Postby NorthDakota11 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:38 am

NDplayin wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:If there's only 4-6 top tier teams each year, teams that by your definition are the only ones that deserve to go to state, why not just have 4 regions and the champion of each advance to a 4 team state tourney? Oh wait, then you and others would still complain that Northstar and Beulah were eliminated in two of those regions and they were better than the other two representatives. But if there's only 4-6 top tier teams we have to eliminate the 8 team state tournament because those other 2-4 teams are bad and will make the tourney boring.

Oh give me a break! I work hard to stay civil on here but you are making it really difficult!

I never EVER said the "top tier" teams are the only ones that deserve to make state. Never!

I've also repeatedly said that I love when top tier teams get beat by Cinderellas- that's one of the great things about sports.

I've never said I only want the top tier teams in the tournament.

What I have said is that I'd prefer a system where there's the OPPORTUNITY for all top tier teams to go and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

I could respect the fact that you disagree with my opinion if you could argue against it without putting words in my mouth


They are ALREADY in the Tournament... the one that started last Monday 64 best teams in the State, ends with one on Saturday.

What you are proposing is like saying that the following teams should play in the NCAA tournament and thats it... they're the top tier teams. Why do we need to see anyone else. OR we should just take the top two teams from the BCS conferences and we'll be good.
1 Gonzaga (51) 29-2 1,607
2 Indiana (7) 25-4 1,517
3 Duke (5) 25-4 1,471
4 Kansas 25-4 1,433
5 Georgetown (2) 23-4 1,384
6 Miami (FL) 23-5 1,245
7 Michigan 24-5 1,240
8 Louisville 24-5 1,217
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:59 am

NorthDakota11 wrote:They are ALREADY in the Tournament... the one that started last Monday 64 best teams in the State, ends with one on Saturday.

What you are proposing is like saying that the following teams should play in the NCAA tournament and thats it... they're the top tier teams. Why do we need to see anyone else. OR we should just take the top two teams from the BCS conferences and we'll be good.
1 Gonzaga (51) 29-2 1,607
2 Indiana (7) 25-4 1,517
3 Duke (5) 25-4 1,471
4 Kansas 25-4 1,433
5 Georgetown (2) 23-4 1,384
6 Miami (FL) 23-5 1,245
7 Michigan 24-5 1,240
8 Louisville 24-5 1,217

Apples and oranges... Here's why.....

The NCAA has all 64 teams seeded equally... The top tier teams are kept as opposite the bracket as possible.

That doesn't mean that one of them can't get upset by a Cinderella, it just means that there is the opportunity that they could continue to the top level of the tourney before they start eliminating each other. What they do with that opportunity (win or lose) is up to them.

The same is not true in our system. True, we have a 64 team single elimination tournament- but it is opposite the NCAA tournament because of how close top tier teams are in the bracket
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Re: Broken

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:09 am

So would an NCAA style tourney work in ND?

I'm sure the question put forth would be travel...but could it still be managed??
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Re: Broken

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:13 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:So would an NCAA style tourney work in ND?

I'm sure the question put forth would be travel...but could it still be managed??


This makes me consider doing a hypothetical 64-team bracket
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:08 am

NorthDakota11 wrote:
NDplayin wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:If there's only 4-6 top tier teams each year, teams that by your definition are the only ones that deserve to go to state, why not just have 4 regions and the champion of each advance to a 4 team state tourney? Oh wait, then you and others would still complain that Northstar and Beulah were eliminated in two of those regions and they were better than the other two representatives. But if there's only 4-6 top tier teams we have to eliminate the 8 team state tournament because those other 2-4 teams are bad and will make the tourney boring.

Oh give me a break! I work hard to stay civil on here but you are making it really difficult!

I never EVER said the "top tier" teams are the only ones that deserve to make state. Never!

I've also repeatedly said that I love when top tier teams get beat by Cinderellas- that's one of the great things about sports.

I've never said I only want the top tier teams in the tournament.

What I have said is that I'd prefer a system where there's the OPPORTUNITY for all top tier teams to go and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

I could respect the fact that you disagree with my opinion if you could argue against it without putting words in my mouth


They are ALREADY in the Tournament... the one that started last Monday 64 best teams in the State, ends with one on Saturday.

What you are proposing is like saying that the following teams should play in the NCAA tournament and thats it... they're the top tier teams. Why do we need to see anyone else. OR we should just take the top two teams from the BCS conferences and we'll be good.
1 Gonzaga (51) 29-2 1,607
2 Indiana (7) 25-4 1,517
3 Duke (5) 25-4 1,471
4 Kansas 25-4 1,433
5 Georgetown (2) 23-4 1,384
6 Miami (FL) 23-5 1,245
7 Michigan 24-5 1,240
8 Louisville 24-5 1,217


Kansas couldn't be a top tier team for NDPlayin. They lost to TCU and top tier teams don't lose to lower teams, especially a team at the bottom of the conferences.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:51 am

Ok ndlionsfan.

Rather than actually debating the points of the topic it seems like you'd rather just disagree with what I call this years top tier teams.... So go ahead- tell me what terminology you'd rather use and tell me the teams.

Are you denying the fact that in most seasons there are a few teams whose regular season schedule and record seperates them as a cut above most other teams? Not that they are invincible but that they are the teams to beat? I love that every team goes into tournaments with a chance to make anything happen but are you suggesting that they are all at the same competitive level when they go in?

In an earlier post, I offered 6 levels that teams seperates themselves into throughout the regular season. 1 top tier 2 great 3 good 4 average 5 not bad 6 bad. How would you break it down differently? And what teams would you put in you highest category this year?

I happy to hear your opinion- why don't you actually explain it to me rather than just sticking words in my mouth while trying to tear down my opinion.
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Re: Broken

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:22 am

If a team gets through a 20-25 game schedule with only a couple losses, I don't care who they played and how weak/strong their region was, they are a top team and deserve a ton a credit. It is very easy for a group of 16-18 year olds to lose focus at some point of the season and drop a game, even if its to a team they should have no reason losing to. If a team starts out slow and loses 3-4 early games, but then gels and makes it to state with 5-6 losses, they are a top team. If a team has a stretch of their schedule against very tough opponents and they drop 3 straight close ones but still make it far in the post season, they are a top team.

I know you have not seen every single team in this state tournament play in person so I don't know how you can judge who is great and who isn't just by what region they come from. I am almost certain that there will be some surprises at the tournament this year from a team or teams that people thought shouldn't be there. There always is.
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Re: Broken

Postby NDplayin » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:57 am

ndlionsfan wrote:If a team gets through a 20-25 game schedule with only a couple losses, I don't care who they played and how weak/strong their region was, they are a top team and deserve a ton a credit. It is very easy for a group of 16-18 year olds to lose focus at some point of the season and drop a game, even if its to a team they should have no reason losing to. If a team starts out slow and loses 3-4 early games, but then gels and makes it to state with 5-6 losses, they are a top team. If a team has a stretch of their schedule against very tough opponents and they drop 3 straight close ones but still make it far in the post season, they are a top team.

I know you have not seen every single team in this state tournament play in person so I don't know how you can judge who is great and who isn't just by what region they come from. I am almost certain that there will be some surprises at the tournament this year from a team or teams that people thought shouldn't be there. There always is.

See ndlionsfan- I actually agree with everything you just said. I would call all the teams that met your descriptions either top tier or great teams and give them all a lot of credit.

I do apparently put a little more stock into strength of schedule when I assess teams (especially the ones I haven't seen play) than you do. Important point: I'm not "judging" any teams- that word makes me uncomfortable- I am certainly forming opinions about which teams are stronger than others, and I think there's a lot of evidence to support my opinion.

Here's something I'm still try to get you to understand about me and this plan. I'm not supporting this plan because I want all the teams who've proven themselves the most in the regular season to automatically go and that wouldn't happen in this plan. I'm not supporting this system because I don't like upsets; I love upsets in fact and they would still happen in this plan. What I want is for upsets to be the reason those top tier teams don't go rather than the fault of the system.
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