Broken

by **lovwatchingsports** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:06 pm

Just saw this. The only things I see happing out of this would be about 10-15 teams drop and coop. Do not think that wpuld be good for ND basketball. The only other would be to have more classes so you can send 4 from each region. Otherwise things stay the same and that is why as they say "makes class B basketball great". do not know if I agree with that but do not punish other teams because your only second best in your region. as they say "sweet happens deal with it"

by **Bisonguy06** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:07 pm

I should add that Playin has been a champion of a number of worthy causes on Preps, and he and I are almost always on the same page.

There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy, there's only you and me and we just disagree... (it's a song)

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:08 pm

NoIinTeam wrote:In most playoff systems you see the potential scenario of a possibly better team being excluded because of location or they didn't win their particular region or conference tourney. I have no problem with that. There will never be the perfect scenario. Many times you see a "cinderella" team advancing way further than expected. To me that adds so much excitement to any tourney ( state, NCAAs or whatever). Some times it takes a team a few games to gel and get hot come tourney time. You can't always judge teams by there record but maybe need to judge them by who is hot come tourney time.

This has nothing to do with a Cinderella situation. I love Cinderella's in sports. The point is, when Cinderella wins- the ugly step sister has no one to blame but herself.

When a top 4 team beats a a top 4 team that isn't a Cinderella. And when two top 4s can exclude each other from being a top 8- that's fault of the system- not the team.

by **Bisonguy06** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:12 pm

Playin's format does not guarantee that the best eight teams make it to the state tournament. It does not prevent the possibility that a loaded region would have quality teams forced to stay home. If the current system is 'broken,' this isn't a perfect 'fix.' We're merely re-shuffling the deck.

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:14 pm

lovwatchingsports wrote:Just saw this. The only things I see happing out of this would be about 10-15 teams drop and coop. Do not think that wpuld be good for ND basketball. The only other would be to have more classes so you can send 4 from each region. Otherwise things stay the same and that is why as they say "makes class B basketball great". do not know if I agree with that but do not punish other teams because your only second best in your region. as they say "sweet happens deal with it"

You'll have to explain to me how you see the 4 region idea affecting the co-op picture at all. Until I hear your reasons, i'll refrain from disagreeing with you- although that's what's likely to happen.

by **Run4Fun2009** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:15 pm

NDplayin wrote:I better say this before the games play out tonight so it doesn't take on the wrong appearance:

The 2013 North Dakota Class B Boys Basketball Tournament is a joke.

Why? Because 2 of the best 4 teams in the state were guaranteed to stay home before the season even started-- thanks to a pathetic broken system.

I'm sick of trying to fix the districts- districts aren't the problem in B. The problem is that some of the best 8 teams are excluded through no fault of their own.

Now, if one of the best 8 teams loses to one of the not best 8 teams... that's their fault- that's tournament basketball. But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

I don't like the push to stick with a sad system for the reason that "you shouldn't be able to lose a game and still move on." I think you shouldn't be able to be an average team who plays a region full of below average teams and still moves on. I'm more in a favor of a system that actually gives the best teams in the state a chance to get to the state tournament over a system that automatically excludes some of the best 8 teams.

Just about every State has to deal with this though.

by **woodchuck10** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:32 pm

I'd take my one class system over a 4 region system

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=11472

4 region system - 4 teams coming off of losses. we dont need teams backing their way into a state tournament.

my system. 8 region champs. one class. one state champion

by **Hinsa** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Playin - is your goal to get the best 8 teams in the state into the state tournament? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

State tournaments were never created to ensure the best 8 teams make it to state. The state tournament brings together the best teams from eight different geographical areas; thus the term "Region." And I'm OK with that. It creates an environment where there is some pride in how your area does in the state tournament. It guarantees that your area will have a representative each year. It does create inequities as you say - some good teams have to stay home. But I don't think the goal of high school is to ensure the best teams get to state, it's to get the best from each region together and have a game between my guys and your guys.

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:46 pm

Hinsa wrote:Playin - is your goal to get the best 8 teams in the state into the state tournament? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

State tournaments were never created to ensure the best 8 teams make it to state. The state tournament brings together the best teams from eight different geographical areas; thus the term "Region." And I'm OK with that. It creates an environment where there is some pride in how your area does in the state tournament. It guarantees that your area will have a representative each year. It does create inequities as you say - some good teams have to stay home. But I don't think the goal of high school is to ensure the best teams get to state, it's to get the best from each region together and have a game between my guys and your guys.

Hinsa... My goal is to get the best 8 teams to state as often as possible (not ever 100% possible- but we should work to get as close as we can). I disagree with you when you say that was never the goal. I think it was always the goal. Geography is one of many inhibitors to that goal- time is another one. We don't have the time in a season nor the money required to travel across the geography so that everyone can play everyone and we can guarantee the most successful 8 teams get to go... it's not feasible. Since perfection isn't feasible... we are looking for the system that comes as close as possible, while still being feasible, the getting the best 8 teams to the tournament.

by **Indy5** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:47 pm

The only thing I'm going to comment on is a lot of people think the region title wouldn't mean anything if both went to state. I will say I've been at a team dual region title for wrestling. Both teams are in state, but there is definitely still a ton of excitement around the dual. Each team wants to win because making state is one thing, but a region title is another. It's a special thing in its own right. It will SLIGHTLY take something away from the region title game to go to this format. It's no longer the golden ticket.

The current system is setup so that making state is basically the main accomplishment. Unless you're a dominant team or a program that goes a lot, that is the goal. Once you're there, you want to win state obviously. The new format would be more centered around having a more competitive state tournament and getting the best possible champ, instead of making getting to state the holy grail.

by **Bisonguy06** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:47 pm

In the current system, it's possible that the second best team in the state would not make the state tournament (when one region is stacked).

In Playin's system, it's possible that the third best team in the state would not make the state tournament (when one region is stacked).

We're creating a new set of problems, and I'm not sure that we're "fixing" anything.

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:54 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Playin's format does not guarantee that the best eight teams make it to the state tournament. It does not prevent the possibility that a loaded region would have quality teams forced to stay home. If the current system is 'broken,' this isn't a perfect 'fix.' We're merely re-shuffling the deck.

It's about more than re-shuffling the deck. The probability of getting the best 8 teams to state goes up significantly with 4 regions.

The variable here is how many "top tier" teams there are each year. I would say this year there are only 3 "top tier" teams in the state and usually there are more. For argument sake, let's say there are usually 6 "top tier" teams.

If we're talking about 8 regions- the odds of there being 2 "top tier" teams in one region and 4 "top tier" teams spread out in the other 7 regions is high.

If we're talking about 4 regions- the odds of there being 3 "top tier" teams in one region and only 3 more spread out in the other 3 regions is low.

Both are possible and both will happen. But one will happen with MUCH less consistency than the other. That makes it the better system.

Again- when a "non top tier" team upsets a "top tier" team that's called a Cinderella and I love it.

When two "top tier" teams are preventing each other from the top tier tournament while two "not top tier" teams are playing for the right to go to the top tier tournament- that's a flaw of the system

by **lovwatchingsports** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:14 pm

NDplayin wrote:
Hinsa wrote:Playin - is your goal to get the best 8 teams in the state into the state tournament? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

State tournaments were never created to ensure the best 8 teams make it to state. The state tournament brings together the best teams from eight different geographical areas; thus the term "Region." And I'm OK with that. It creates an environment where there is some pride in how your area does in the state tournament. It guarantees that your area will have a representative each year. It does create inequities as you say - some good teams have to stay home. But I don't think the goal of high school is to ensure the best teams get to state, it's to get the best from each region together and have a game between my guys and your guys.

Hinsa... My goal is to get the best 8 teams to state as often as possible (not ever 100% possible- but we should work to get as close as we can). I disagree with you when you say that was never the goal. I think it was always the goal. Geography is one of many inhibitors to that goal- time is another one. We don't have the time in a season nor the money required to travel across the geography so that everyone can play everyone and we can guarantee the most successful 8 teams get to go... it's not feasible. Since perfection isn't feasible... we are looking for the system that comes as close as possible, while still being feasible, the getting the best 8 teams to the tournament.

Can you pick the top 8 teams out of the 16 that are left? I do not think so.

by **old#63** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:31 pm

Tough luck, Chuck. I've watch lots of great teams from Region 2 stay home for years. And now just because it's some other region's turn, "The system is broken". :roll:

The system is fine. Play ball.

by **gominers** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:45 pm

I'm with old#63. The reason Class B basketball is loved in the state is because of the current system. There have always been very good teams that haven't made it to state and there have always been teams that got hot at the right time and made it to the state tournament. The main point of the system is to find a state champion. The current system is a 64 team single elimination tournament. There are 16 1-seeds, 2-seeds, 3-seeds, and 4-seeds.

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:47 pm

old#63 wrote:Tough luck, Chuck. I've watch lots of great teams from Region 2 stay home for years. And now just because it's some other region's turn, "The system is broken". The system is fine. Play ball.

Check my history, I've always advocated 4 regions. This isn't new for me... Just an over abundance of obvious evidence this year. The system is broken no matter which of the 8 Regions it hurts

by **AllBallFan** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:48 pm

I don't disagree that it might be time to reorganize a little bit in Class B basketball, but I think these discussions are way too hung up on TALENT and not enough on the thrill of competitive sports. Quite often the most talented teams are not in the big tournament or championship in every sport at every level. I like the fact that sports allow for a team to grab an opportunity or rise to the occasion at the right time and accomplish big things. Talent is just one factor, but teamwork, hustle, luck, coaching, fan support, and many other things can help your team. To me that is the biggest thrill of sports. The talented teams usually have many of the other things that bring success, but any given lapse in diligence can bring them down too. I personally love that aspect of our system and of sports in general.

by **NDplayin** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:51 pm

lovwatchingsports wrote:Can you pick the top 8 teams out of the 16 that are left? I do not think so.

no, but I can pick a top 3 and a top 6. And it's certain one of the top 3 and 2 of the top 6 won't go

by **ndlionsfan** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:09 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.

my question still hasnt been answered playin

by **justplayalready** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:43 pm

Personally I'm good with the fact that I'm likely not going to see the best 8 teams at the B. my issue is when we start seeing the same 10-12 teams making up half+ of the field year in and out..

by **Xfactor** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:13 am

I've always been in favor of the current system because I love the excitement involved with it, but because of the lack of talent around the state I wish we would have a 4 region system. It's unfortunate that the best teams aren't always in state but that's just how it works. However, in the past there's always been good teams in the state tournament no matter who wins the regions, but as someone previously stated, this state tournament will be awful to watch because most of the teams are so bad. I'm not trying to take anything away from them, but I love watching the State B so I want there to be decent competition.

by **sportfanatic** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:19 am

It seems this "Broken" topic started when NS and Beulah didn't win their region. You have to win your region to make it to state! Teams improve as the season progresses and I agree with old#63! Unfortunately every team has a bad night but consistency is the key and you have to win them all to get to state.

by **NDplayin** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:28 am

sportfanatic wrote:It seems this "Broken" topic started when NS and Beulah didn't win their region. You have to win your region to make it to state! Teams improve as the season progresses and I agree with old#63! Unfortunately every team has a bad night but consistency is the key and you have to win them all to get to state.

WRONG!!!! Go and look at the time and wording of my origonal post. I intentionally opened this before the games were played for this exact reason. There are no sour grapes, the system is broken regardless of the outcomes that played out tonight.

by **bballuvr** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:21 am

NDPLAYIN

You say "broken", "highly-extremely disagree" with someone defending a region champion that doesn't seem to be worthy of mention in your mind, and other slams on the B tnmnt. All of these are certainly within your right to do.
You also say you don't mean to take away from these teams and congratulate them for winning their Regions in this "broken" and bad system.

You do make some interesting points regarding the 4 Region type system.

I'm in Region 3. See some Region 1 and 4 , and catch a little of some others on broadcast here and there.
You asked in another thread about wins and losses and quality, etc.
LaMoure LM has wins over Region 1 champ Milnor and semi finalist Maple Valley. They did lose a 3 pointer to Carrington. I know that Carrington bowed out to a 20+point win I believe to NS.

I figure you will not put much stock in those games, and will probably point out the loss to Carrington as a reason why LaMoure LM should be not involved. They played their schedule like every team in the state, and are located where they are geographically through no fault of their own.

I, and most folks with numerous functioning brain cells, realize that DT will be a heavy favorite in that game, as of course Beulah would have been. One of the many aspects of the B is looking at who your Region matches up against in that particular year. We knew from beginning what game 1 matchup could be. We also knew that we had to battle through our Region with a solid SZ team , a South Border team that progressed over the season, and perennial Region 3 power Linton HMB. Now it's here, and our club will give it the best shot we can.

I can, and you probly can , and many others can recount stories of unlikely runs, great first round matchups between #1 and #2, a team with a near .500 record making it, and on and on. The B has endless great stories. I do not think it is as bad and broken as you make it out to be.

by **EHS1998** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:53 am

Extremely well said bballuvr.

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