Broken

[NDplayin]

I better say this before the games play out tonight so it doesn't take on the wrong appearance:




The 2013 North Dakota Class B Boys Basketball Tournament is a joke.




Why? Because 2 of the best 4 teams in the state were guaranteed to stay home before the season even started-- thanks to a pathetic broken system.

I'm sick of trying to fix the districts- districts aren't the problem in B. The problem is that some of the best 8 teams are excluded through no fault of their own.

Now, if one of the best 8 teams loses to one of the not best 8 teams... that's their fault- that's tournament basketball. But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

I don't like the push to stick with a sad system for the reason that "you shouldn't be able to lose a game and still move on." I think you shouldn't be able to be an average team who plays a region full of below average teams and still moves on. I'm more in a favor of a system that actually gives the best teams in the state a chance to get to the state tournament over a system that automatically excludes some of the best 8 teams.

[NDplayin]

P.S. To the 8 teams that win tonight. Congratulations, you've earned your way to the B through the system made available to you. You did your job, and the fact that you forced into a terrible system doesn't diminish your accomplishment.

The fact that the current system sheds automatic speculation as to the worthiness of teams out of the weaker region is almost as cruel as it is to the worthy teams who don't make it out of the strongest regions.

[vikingman]

What remedy do you have?

[Mike Ditka]

Couldn't have said it better, it is broken. However, what are the options to make it better? Every state I'm sure someone ends up staying home that shouldn't, maybe it's just part of the game????

[NDplayin]

In a nut shell:

1. Keep 16 districts, but redistrict to balance the number of teams.
2. Take 2 teams out of each of the districts instead of 4
3. Reduce the number of regions to 4 instead of 8
4. 2 teams from each of the regions goes to the state tournament instead of 1


Ditka, you're partially right... there's no perfect system that works 100% of the time. But the current system fails too greatly too often. The 4 region system doesn't guarantee that there won't be years where 3 of the top 4 teams would be in the same region, but the odds are way smaller and the frequency much less often.

[Mike Ditka]

Don't hate your idea...that's for sure.

[bballuvr]

I don't know much about other states and how pairings are determined. I do know that there are some that are seeded. The 4 teams you mentioned are certainly 4 of the best, maybe the best 4.

Geography is the way most districts, regions, sections, etc are determined across the country I would think. I've been around for over 40+ tourneys. There are many times that a Region will have a couple real solid teams, maybe more. That does not make this, or any other, tournament a "joke". It is called life.

Do there need to be improvements? Sure, there could be. There will be regions with 2-3 real solid teams till the end of time. I think the fact that it happens like that is one of many many things that make the state B such a great place for storylines. There is not enough time or space here for me to share half of them.

You did point out that the 8 teams that make it deserve congratulations. You are right. But it is far from a joke.

[Flip]

I don't know much about other states and how pairings are determined. I do know that there are some that are seeded. The 4 teams you mentioned are certainly 4 of the best, maybe the best 4.

MN does it the same with 8 sections. My guess is most states have something very similar to what ND has.

[NDplayin]

The accomplishments of the 8 teams are real, they are valuable, they are meaningful, and they are deserved.

It is the tournament that is the joke.

[classB4ever]

In a nut shell:

1. Keep 16 districts, but redistrict to balance the number of teams.
2. Take 2 teams out of each of the districts instead of 4
3. Reduce the number of regions to 4 instead of 8
4. 2 teams from each of the regions goes to the state tournament instead of 1


Ditka, you're partially right... there's no perfect system that works 100% of the time. But the current system fails too greatly too often. The 4 region system doesn't guarantee that there won't be years where 3 of the top 4 teams would be in the same region, but the odds are way smaller and the frequency much less often.

NDplayin,
Serious question. How do you know that the so called 2 top teams are going to meet in the region championship? What if they are from the same district? Heck, one of them could end up not even making the region championship because of the way the brackets fall. How would the system guarantee that? Kind of what we have now, but they would be out a game earlier.

[ndlionsfan]

In a 4 region system, this year Rugby, Northstar and FW all could very well be in the same region based on geography. You could also have Lamoure, Shiloh, and South Border in the same region. Couldn't a person make the same argument that one of the first 3 would have to stay home from state, while one of the other three aren't better? Point is, no matter how you break it down the same argument can probably be made in any given year. And with not enough out of region games (teams traveling across the whole state to play other supposed top teams) it really is too hard to tell just who the best teams are. Beulah, Northstar, Trinity, and Oak Grove are really the only "top" teams I can think of that really went out of there way to play the best competition.

[uspsrt]

In a nut shell:

1. Keep 16 districts, but redistrict to balance the number of teams.
2. Take 2 teams out of each of the districts instead of 4
3. Reduce the number of regions to 4 instead of 8
4. 2 teams from each of the regions goes to the state tournament instead of 1


Ditka, you're partially right... there's no perfect system that works 100% of the time. But the current system fails too greatly too often. The 4 region system doesn't guarantee that there won't be years where 3 of the top 4 teams would be in the same region, but the odds are way smaller and the frequency much less often.

I like this idea. I think if you look back far enough in history, it was in use before. I may be wrong and this is going to date me, but I think back in 1959 Rolla and Bottineau actually played each other 4 times. Bottineau won the two regular season meetings and the Regional title over Rolla but were upset by Rolla in the State final. That could only have occurred in a system like this. In this case Bottineau actually beat Rolla three times during the season but lost to them in the State final.

No matter what system you use there is going to be someone just outside the geographical boundry that will complain, but this does seem to be fairer.

[bballuvr]

The only way it is not a joke is your 4 region format?

Your "joke" of a tournament must apply to every Class B tournament ever played. There has always been more than one team worthy of a state appearance in at least a Region or 2.

[NDplayin]

Just a few of the many advantages of the 4 region system:

1. Increase the value of qualifying for the Regional Tournament.

With most districts having 7 or fewer teams in them, taking 4 to the regional level (over 50%) is just too many. We too often hear complaining from towns about how they didn't "go to state." I believe a lot of that complaining happens because there is no legitimate middle ground goal. For a team to set the goal of making it to the regional is like setting the goal not to be terrible. Therefore the only meaningful and tangible goal is going to state. Make it an accomplishment to qualify for the regional again and people will be more content with that accomplishment and not as upset about not going to state.

2. Increased level of competition at each of the regional tournament games

No more 30 point blowouts on Monday nights.

3. Better opportunity for more of the best 8 teams at the state tournament more often

No system will ever guarantee all of the best 8 teams 100% of the time. Even if there was such a system, I wouldn't like it. Upsets are an important part of sports and the educational process associated with sports. However, a system that so commonly excludes the opportunity for one of the best to go is a bad system.

4. A partially seeded state tournament

We would still match-up the 4 regions randomly. Ex: 1 vs 3 and 2 vs. 4.... however, all four region champions would match-up with the region runner-ups. Now we're decreasing the odds that the two best teams meet in the first round at state and increasing the odds that the 4 best teams make the semifinal round. How often has the second best team in state lost to the champion in the first round- and then won big on their way to a 5th place finish? This reduces the likely hood of that.

5. Every athlete gets to participate in tournament games

I don't like the super-regional idea as eliminating the districts excludes the bottom dweller teams from experiencing a tournament atmosphere. Remember, at the bottom line of all of this are the kids, their opportunities, and their education. Eliminating districts subtracts from that theme. It's not about our entertainment value as we often think it is.

There are several more benefits- these are the top 5

[cubsfan]

I better say this before the games play out tonight so it doesn't take on the wrong appearance:




The 2013 North Dakota Class B Boys Basketball Tournament is a joke.




Why? Because 2 of the best 4 teams in the state were guaranteed to stay home before the season even started-- thanks to a pathetic broken system.

I'm sick of trying to fix the districts- districts aren't the problem in B. The problem is that some of the best 8 teams are excluded through no fault of their own.

Now, if one of the best 8 teams loses to one of the not best 8 teams... that's their fault- that's tournament basketball. But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

I don't like the push to stick with a sad system for the reason that "you shouldn't be able to lose a game and still move on." I think you shouldn't be able to be an average team who plays a region full of below average teams and still moves on. I'm more in a favor of a system that actually gives the best teams in the state a chance to get to the state tournament over a system that automatically excludes some of the best 8 teams.

Do you really think that North Dakota is the only state where this happens? I don't think the system is broken at all. Not every team is going to make it to state. If you want to go to state, win your region. It is plain and simple. If you were to change the system like the one you stated, there would be still be people claiming that there are three or four teams that should make the state tournament out of region. I also find it ludicrous that you say that those two games should be in the semi-finals at state. There are plenty of talented teams that have laid an egg over the years in the first round who had the talent to win a state title.

[NDplayin]

NDplayin,
Serious question. How do you know that the so called 2 top teams are going to meet in the region championship? What if they are from the same district? Heck, one of them could end up not even making the region championship because of the way the brackets fall. How would the system guarantee that? Kind of what we have now, but they would be out a game earlier.

The two teams that come out of the same district are on opposite sides of the Regional bracket. If they continue to win they meet in the Regional championship. If one of them loses either they weren't one of the best two teams or they lost to a team they shouldn't have- in which case the responsibility of not moving on is theirs- and not the result of a system that automatically excluded them.

[NDplayin]

If you were to change the system like the one you stated, there would be still be people claiming that there are three or four teams that should make the state tournament out of region. I also find it ludicrous that you say that those two games should be in the semi-finals at state. There are plenty of talented teams that have laid an egg over the years in the first round who had the talent to win a state title.

I've already said that the underlined portion is sure to happen, but it will happen much less consistently with 4 regions. Plain and simple- no system is perfect but this system is closer considering the number of teams we currently have.

As for the rest of it, welcome to sports. When you don't show up for a game and lay an egg you have yourself to blame. That is very different than being excluded from even the opportunity by the system.

[cubsfan]

If you were to change the system like the one you stated, there would be still be people claiming that there are three or four teams that should make the state tournament out of region. I also find it ludicrous that you say that those two games should be in the semi-finals at state. There are plenty of talented teams that have laid an egg over the years in the first round who had the talent to win a state title.

I've already said that the underlined portion is sure to happen, but it will happen much less consistently with 4 regions. Plain and simple- no system is perfect but this system is closer considering the number of teams we currently have.

As for the rest of it, welcome to sports. When you don't show up for a game and lay an egg you have yourself to blame. That is very different than being excluded from even the opportunity by the system.

So you're saying that every team doesn't have a chance to make it to state now? Every team doesn't have a chance to win a state title? I would also like to point out that you were the one who said that these region title games should be the state semifinal matchups.

[woodchuck10]

The beauty of this format is that these teams get to send a rival home and prevent them from going to state. I bet Beulah/Trinity and North Star/Four Winds and all the other regions would love end each others seasons in the Regional championship. Its win or go home once you get to the Regional and it should stay that way. Right now we have a 64 team single elimination tournament to decide a state championship. it is not broken....just needs some tweaking.

[ndlionsfan]

5. Every athlete gets to participate in tournament games

I don't like the super-regional idea as eliminating the districts excludes the bottom dweller teams from experiencing a tournament atmosphere. Remember, at the bottom line of all of this are the kids, their opportunities, and their education. Eliminating districts subtracts from that theme. It's not about our entertainment value as we often think it is.

There are several more benefits- these are the top 5

This is an easy fix. Yes, I believe region 7's proposal is to have the first round of their trial super regional held at the higher teams home site. All those first round games could be played at a nuetral site in a tournament atmosphere. But I also like the idea or rewarding a team that has earned a higher seed a home advantage.

Are teams in the football playoffs not in a "tournament atmosphere" because they are not played at a neutral site? Minnesota did (and maybe still does) play their quarterfinal round of their state tournament at the higher seed sites or separate neutral sites, but not at a tournament venue. They also basically use the super regional format and it seems to work fine.

[NDplayin]

So you're saying that every team doesn't have a chance to make it to state now? Every team doesn't have a chance to win a state title? I would also like to point out that you were the one who said that these region title games should be the state semifinal matchups.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Under the current system, the best team in the state has the opportunity to either win the title or lose their chance under their own power.

What I am saying, is that under the current system the second best team in the state is too often deprived the opportunity to represent their school and community as one of the best 8 teams. What makes it wrong is that they have no control over whether they receive that opportunity or not... the system automatically excludes them.

[NDplayin]

The beauty of this format is that these teams get to send a rival home and prevent them from going to state. I bet Beulah/Trinity and North Star/Four Winds and all the other regions would love end each others seasons in the Regional championship. Its win or go home once you get to the Regional and it should stay that way. Right now we have a 64 team single elimination tournament to decide a state championship. it is not broken....just needs some tweaking.

This is what Class B basketball is about.

I completely disagree with both of you.

A true competitor realizes that in order to achieve your goal you must prevent someone else from achieving theirs... Only someone who is not part of that competitive process draws the conclusion that the reward is in stopping the other.

Of the four teams mentioned. Two of them will be overjoyed because they've extended their season and earned the right to represent their schools and communities in the state tournament. Their joy is completely unrelated to the fact that the other two schools' seasons are over.

If you pride yourself in working harder and competing better than your rival so that you can achieve your goal you're competitive.

If you take more joy in the fact that your opponent lost than the fact that you won, you are sick.

[NoIinTeam]

In most playoff systems you see the potential scenario of a possibly better team being excluded because of location or they didn't win their particular region or conference tourney. I have no problem with that. There will never be the perfect scenario. Many times you see a "cinderella" team advancing way further than expected. To me that adds so much excitement to any tourney ( state, NCAAs or whatever). Some times it takes a team a few games to gel and get hot come tourney time. You can't always judge teams by there record but maybe need to judge them by who is hot come tourney time.

[ndlionsfan]

NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.

[Bisonguy06]

Six of one, half a dozen of another.

Y'all are simply arguing about at what point the class B postseason becomes a single elimination tournament.

Playin's system narrows the field down to eight, the regional championship games are played for seeding purposes, and then it becomes an eight team single elimination tournament.

The current system is similar to a 64 team NCAA bracket, all games being do-or-die. I happen to like what we have. We have eight elimination games being played tonight at locations that are within a 100 mile radius of all the competing schools. Hop in your car, drive for a little over an hour, and you'll get to watch a thriller between two familiar teams and schools. There's beauty in that.