Broken

[cubsfan]

This new system that you created is still going to create some of the same problems that the tournament has now. If you wanna make it to state, win your region, plain and simple. Your idea of a challenge would actually make the 3rd place game exciting to watch. I just don't think you should reward a team for losing in the region tournament. You need to be playing your best three games of basketball in the region tournament.

[PlayHard-KHCO]

I think this whole discussion is indicative of the downward spiral in all levels of athletics- the 'gimme a participation ribbon and a hug' movement. It's a tournament- everyone has the opportunity to win and also the same opportunity to lose. The 'second best team' in the state is the one the is getting the second place trophy at the state tourney- Ifs and butts don't mean a thing. if there is a team that wanted it- then they should have kept winning to get there- or worked harder plain and simple. Lets just get rid of all the tournaments- hand the kids all a participation ribbon and tell them they are all number one.
Its sports- there are winners and there are losers- both learn a life lesson.

[PlayHard-KHCO]

neeeevermind. Lamoure-LM just made the argument here completely invalid. The ridiculous attempt to say a team 'deserves' to be somewhere holds no water. Changing an entire tournament makeup wont change the fact that any team can win on any day -if they score more points, they win.<----- those last 7words- no ifs or buts , thats the only certainty in tournament play.

[Shawn]

But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

Don't you love how "hypothetical" people are when it comes to basketball? It's like nobody needs to play any games because they are already "the best." I just laugh every time somebody stakes claim on who deserves to be the winner without having to prove it.

[EHS1998]

But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

Don't you love how "hypothetical" people are when it comes to basketball? It's like nobody needs to play any games because they are already "the best." I just laugh every time somebody stakes claim on who deserves to be the winner without having to prove it.

Couldn't possibly agree more!

[Bisonguy06]

We can talk all day long about ways to tweak our system in North Dakota, but it sure as heck isnt a broken system.

With LaMoure and Milnor playing in the first semifinal game tomorrow, we are guaranteed to have a small public high school competing in the state championship game. This marks the 7th year in a row where we've had a small public school playing for the title. It'll be small vs. small unless Rugby advances through the other bracket.

With that kind of consistency, no one can possibly argue that the deck is stacked against the small schools in class B.

[NDplayin]

neeeevermind. Lamoure-LM just made the argument here completely invalid. The ridiculous attempt to say a team 'deserves' to be somewhere holds no water. Changing an entire tournament makeup wont change the fact that any team can win on any day -if they score more points, they win.<----- those last 7words- no ifs or buts , thats the only certainty in tournament play.

But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.

Don't you love how "hypothetical" people are when it comes to basketball? It's like nobody needs to play any games because they are already "the best." I just laugh every time somebody stakes claim on who deserves to be the winner without having to prove it.

Both of the above quote were made today... Since you apparently want me to keep making the same point I won't even apologize for the length of this post... I made all of my quotes below in this same thread BEFORE the tournament started... Proof that rather than debate this topic by the points, people prefer to put words in my mouth and act like my reason for discontent with the current system is different than it actually is.

As for the rest of it, welcome to sports. When you don't show up for a game and lay an egg you have yourself to blame. That is very different than being excluded from even the opportunity by the system.

This has nothing to do with a Cinderella situation. I love Cinderella's in sports. The point is, when Cinderella wins- the ugly step sister has no one to blame but herself.

When a top 4 team beats a a top 4 team that isn't a Cinderella. And when two top 4s can exclude each other from being a top 8- that's fault of the system- not the team.

I never EVER said the "top tier" teams are the only ones that deserve to make state. Never!

I've also repeatedly said that I love when top tier teams get beat by Cinderellas- that's one of the great things about sports.

I've never said I only want the top tier teams in the tournament.

Again- when a "non top tier" team upsets a "top tier" team that's called a Cinderella and I love it.

When two "top tier" teams are preventing each other from the top tier tournament while two "not top tier" teams are playing for the right to go to the top tier tournament- that's a flaw of the system

If one of the three remaining teams gets beat I'll call it a Cinderella and consider it one of the great things about sports. Either way I can tell you this, I still wish we had a system that would have made it possible to have all 5 of those teams in the tournament, and if one of them would have lost to a Cinderella I would have considered it their fault- not the systems

None of the teams on that list are a "Slouch" and on the right night anything can happen.

None of the teams on that list are a "Slouch" and on the right night anything can happen.What I have said is that I'd prefer a system where there's the OPPORTUNITY for all top tier teams to go and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

That doesn't mean that one of them can't get upset by a Cinderella, it just means that there is the opportunity that they could continue to the top level of the tourney before they start eliminating each other. What they do with that opportunity (win or lose) is up to them

Here's something I'm still try to get you to understand about me and this plan. I'm not supporting this plan because I want all the teams who've proven themselves the most in the regular season to automatically go and that wouldn't happen in this plan. I'm not supporting this system because I don't like upsets; I love upsets in fact and they would still happen in this plan. What I want is for upsets to be the reason those top tier teams don't go rather than the fault of the system.

For the ten thousandth time, the problem I have with the system has nothing to do with any of the teams in the system; it has everything to do with the system by which some of those teams qualified for the tournament.

LaMoure's and Trenton's wins so far this tournament are exactly what makes high school sports great. You find me a quote of mine where I ever said anything contrary to that.

The 4 region idea doesn't prevent anything that has happened so far in this tournament from happening- All it does is open up the OPPORTUNITY for some even more exciting things to happen. I'm even more in favor of the idea after today than I was before.

Again, please disagree with me all you want- that's great. However, when you debate me how about you actually debate the systems and not put words in my mouth when my actual words (see above) were completely the opposite.

[NDplayin]

I think this whole discussion is indicative of the downward spiral in all levels of athletics- the 'gimme a participation ribbon and a hug' movement. It's a tournament- everyone has the opportunity to win and also the same opportunity to lose. The 'second best team' in the state is the one the is getting the second place trophy at the state tourney- Ifs and butts don't mean a thing. if there is a team that wanted it- then they should have kept winning to get there- or worked harder plain and simple. Lets just get rid of all the tournaments- hand the kids all a participation ribbon and tell them they are all number one.
Its sports- there are winners and there are losers- both learn a life lesson.

A Quote from a a few days ago

Let's get real. Do you think there wouldn't be Mountains and Seas in the 4 region idea? In reality, the Mountains get taller and the Seas get rougher.

First, it's harder to qualify for the 4 regions than 8 and the regional tournament field get WAY tougher. No more 1 seeds blowing away 4 seeds that may have only won 10% of their games all season. No more first round cake walks. Start taking two teams from 4 combined districts to a regional tournament and there will be no easy game, no cake walk, every team will be a good team.

There's no intention of making anything easier in this idea... no hint of "giving everybody a medal."

There are still 8 teams in the state tournament in both systems... so where's this idea about giving everyone a medal?

In my idea 32 teams make the regional tournament... in the current system, 64 teams qualify... really... my system gives out less ribbons and medals.

[PlayHard-KHCO]

NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.

THAT- you ignored that question TWICE- your example you started this thread with holds zero water- the so called '4 best teams' you used-after today your example for why this should be done- its gone. And you havent answered that question to validate your statement. the 'ifs and buts' and 'this could happen and that could happen' that is the whole point of the tournament- regardless of what format you use- every team in the state when districts start has an opportunity to be at center court at the state tournament receiving the #1 trophy (including the current format) . 4 teams- 8 teams 16 teams makes no difference.
The whole point of my comment about everyone receiving a ribbon- in some skewed way you think a team deserves to be in the tournament because they are good -good based on things like their win/loss record and schedule strength- none of which means crap come tournament time. You keep double talking about cinderella teams are great -and at the same time you think a team should....get a second chance?..because somehow if they get upset or 'lay an egg' in a game it is somehow the 'systems fault'? ..or what exactly are you saying- explain that- it makes no sense. The records are wiped clean at tourney time- you win- you advance, it really is that simple. 'laying an egg' or being upset....thats how it works. That sports. (see where my 'give everyone a ribbon comes in? ) That is Class B tournament time. Its what makes it what it is. How about this: Maybe we should just go to a statewide coaches/AP poll and pick the teams that play in the state tourney based on a power poll and that strength of schedule- ..that works well in FBS college football..every year there is no question as to who should be playing in the big game and the champion is cut and dry and no question who is the best.....

[NDplayin]

NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.

THAT- you ignored that question TWICE- your example you started this thread with holds zero water- the so called '4 best teams' you used-after today your example for why this should be done- its gone. And you havent answered that question to validate your statement.

Actually- Here is the response I left to the very question you quoted... I'll admit- I responded to the same guy with the same question in one thread ("new idea" the other thread that's along this same track) and should have copied and pasted my response into this thread as well (therefore I can't blame you for thinking I ignored the question- even though I didn't) ...

I just looked and looked for the long thread on here that was called "Best Team not to Qualify for State," and either it has disappeared, been deleted, or I'm blind. I know it was just recently there because there was a guy very adamant that Bowman was one of the best 3 teams in the state the year that Dickinson Trinity beat MPCG in the championship. I wish I could have found it to link for you because it would have answered your question well. Some of the teams listed in that thread had been beaten by a Cinderella, but much more common were the teams who lost to an eventual state champion by a narrow margin (often more narrow than their games at state), and whose only losses had been to that same state champion or other top tier teams who made it.

My main point would be this... no matter what happens in the state tournament doesn't mean that my idea doesn't hold water... I've repeated over and over that I love Cinderella's- I've repeated over and over that I don't expect all the top tier teams to make it all the time... what I have repeated is that I want a system that opens up the opportunity for all the top tier teams to go to state....

I repeat... I don't expect everyone to jump on board and agree with me and I love the debate- but when will I have to quit repeating myself about points that are loosely (at best) related to the topic and actually get to debate the topic itself?

[Indy5]

I truly believe half the people haven't read this whole thread or are in about the 20% percentile of their reading comprehension.

Obviously everyone has a chance to win state at the start of districts. Just shut up about it. I can't imagine how sick of seeing that comment NDplayin is, considering this is his fight and not mine.

Think about it this way. If you think this new system is awful, then that must also mean you think NCAA Tourney teams should be randomly assigned instead of seeded. EXACT SAME CONCEPT. Everyone still has a chance to win it all if they win all their games (said in an incredibly mocking voice). Sure they do, but why not have the best teams more spaced out. Common sense.

[NDplayin]

I truly believe half the people haven't read this whole thread or are in about the 20% percentile of their reading comprehension.

Obviously everyone has a chance to win state at the start of districts. Just shut up about it. I can't imagine how sick of seeing that comment NDplayin is, considering this is his fight and not mine.

Think about it this way. If you think this new system is awful, then that must also mean you think NCAA Tourney teams should be randomly assigned instead of seeded. EXACT SAME CONCEPT. Everyone still has a chance to win it all if they win all their games (said in an incredibly mocking voice). Sure they do, but why not have the best teams more spaced out. Common sense.

Thank you Indy!!!!!!!!!!!!

What I love is that you supported my idea a little but without saying whether you agree or disagree with it- and it doesn't matter either way.

Thanks for understanding my frustrations Indy.

Again- to everybody- please disagree with me. That's good and I enjoy the debate, but please at least debate the system and not put words in my mouth or try to use unrelated side topics.

[old#63]

Think about it this way. If you think this new system is awful, then that must also mean you think NCAA Tourney teams should be randomly assigned instead of seeded. EXACT SAME CONCEPT. Everyone still has a chance to win it all if they win all their games (said in an incredibly mocking voice). Sure they do, but why not have the best teams more spaced out. Common sense.

As I have stated before, my objection would be this. I veiw the ND state B not as a meeting of the best 8 in the state, but as a meeting of the best qualifier from each part of the state. For me, the appeal of the B is that it matches up teams that have never met before. Outcomes are unpredictable, as witnessed by todays opening round. I love that. Would changing to 4 regions instead of 8 ruin that? Probably not, but it sure wouldn't enhance it. And I also truly believe it would make it more difficult for smaller schools to get to the state tourney. The NCAA is a great tourney, but I don't think we need to use it as the model for how to set up the B.

[B-oldtimer]

I agree with you system we have now is set up so that whole state is involved in the state tournament and this year its about as balanced geographiclally as possible as to way the regions are structured. Its what is appealling about the class b we have teams playing each other from across the state, No system is perfect but this year it appears opening round teams were matched about perfectly with nobody winning by more than 4. Like some one stated earlier when we start district to state everyone starts out with chance to win and season records are accounted for in district seating and regional seating is done by performance in district tournaments. If you start qualifying state tournament it will be subjective based on who percieves are the better teams which may not be the case. This tournament has shown that percieved higher rated team has not won and lower rated team has won. If we had seated the teams we would have been dead wrong in our seating. Tommorrow may show there is some spread between the teams or again we may see that all teams this year are evenly balanced comes down who has best run at the end of the game. Also it is nice to see smaller schools represented in state tournament but by numbers it should should be largest number state qualifiers because small schools represent over half all class b schools and large class b schools represent less than 20% of state class b schools. This should mean there should only be one large school a year at state tournament and occasionally second school but show me how many times that has happened in last 15 years.

[Bisonguy06]

Alright.. Playin doesn't have my vote yet, but I understand his frustration with these arguments.

His plan does not prevent representation from all corners of the state.
His plan does not prevent small schools from making the state tournament.

[70runner]

I think this whole discussion is indicative of the downward spiral in all levels of athletics- the 'gimme a participation ribbon and a hug' movement. It's a tournament- everyone has the opportunity to win and also the same opportunity to lose. The 'second best team' in the state is the one the is getting the second place trophy at the state tourney- Ifs and butts don't mean a thing. if there is a team that wanted it- then they should have kept winning to get there- or worked harder plain and simple. Lets just get rid of all the tournaments- hand the kids all a participation ribbon and tell them they are all number one.
Its sports- there are winners and there are losers- both learn a life lesson.

Amen. I have had a problem with this since my kids were in grade school. (10+years ago) Who do the adults think they are fooling? Games where they don’t keep score or the score magically ends up tied at the end. My daughter knew what the score was. In life some succeed and some don’t. I’ve been passed over for promotion and I thought I was more qualified. That’s life. I know some adults that after being passed over for promotion get a chip on their shoulder, become disgruntled and end up their own worst enemy. Sometimes things just don’t go your way. Competition has winners and losers. If you can’t handle losing they stay home.

Now, I have been following this thread and check it quite often daily. I never thought NDplayin was saying anything negative about any individual team in this year’s tourney. He is talking about the system and he thinks the system is broken. But, I don't agree with that, it is not broken. If ND was to go to a different format there would be problems created with that system. Some can be anticipated now and some problems would not be realized until it’s in place for a few years. And then, 10 years from now the whole picture changes and you end up with three or more teams from the same region (one of 4) that are stacked and arguably considered Top Tier teams. And only two make it to the State tourney. No matter what system we have or what system there is in any sport someone always feels it is unfair in some way. But the fact is, every team has a chance to make it to the Championship game at the beginning of the District Tourneys. Some have a harder road than others, true but they still have the same shot as every other team. They all get their second chance at the region tournament. Region 8, Powers Lake beats Trenton for the District 16 Championship, but look who is in the state tourney.

[old#63]

Alright.. Playin doesn't have my vote yet, but I understand his frustration with these arguments.

His plan does not prevent representation from all corners of the state.
His plan does not prevent small schools from making the state tournament.

You are correct, Bisonguy, it doesn't prevent either, but it does change both. I don't hate Playin's idea either. But it does widen the area that your local "representative" comes from, and, in my mind, lessens the chances for a smaller school to "earn a trip".

[NorthDakota11]

i agree Playin's system doesn't prevent any of those things but I would argue that a team like Trenton may not even be in the tournament this weekend in a four region set up. Then again after their performance last night they may have knocked either Trinity or Beulah off to make the tourney. I liked the point that was made about geography earlier and the 4 region format could limit that a bit. With any system their will be issues but I think the current system allows for a better sample of what every part of the state offers. Lamoure plays a type of basketball Trinity obviously struggled with yesterday.

The 4 region plan with a challenge game limits the opportunity for small schools to make that special run to the tournament. I'll use region seven as an example. Lets say New England has a good team and makes a great run in the tourney and knocks off two seed Trinity who the lost to 2 times during regular season. They then beat Beulah in the championship. Trinity beats Beulah in the challenge game. New England may have to beat Trinity AGAIN to win a state title. WHY? That game has already been played 3 possibly 4 times. And by teams that are 26 Miles apart. I don't think that's what a State Tourney is about.

[Shawn]

Try to remember back when only two teams advanced to the regional tournament. Were there ever cases the #3 team in one district was better than the #1 & #2 teams in all of the other districts in the state? I'm sure there were plenty. Not saying I don't understand the argument/logic of this post, there is just no way of leaving one or two teams home from the state tournament because they didn't get out of the region. You could argue seeds until you are blue in the face and certain parts of the state will always have tougher regions. Good discussion, but I don't see a solution that would avoid a disparity somewhere.

[Indy5]

i agree Playin's system doesn't prevent any of those things but I would argue that a team like Trenton may not even be in the tournament this weekend in a four region set up. Then again after their performance last night they may have knocked either Trinity or Beulah off to make the tourney. I liked the point that was made about geography earlier and the 4 region format could limit that a bit. With any system their will be issues but I think the current system allows for a better sample of what every part of the state offers. Lamoure plays a type of basketball Trinity obviously struggled with yesterday.

I just need to throw in a couple things.

Trenton would not have beat Trinity or Beulah playing like they did yesterday. They played pretty well, but they also played the worst team in the tournament, maybe 2nd worst, Cavalier and Shiloh are close in my opinion.

It wasn't Lamoure's style of ball that cause Trinity problems it was Lamoure having a super hot start, and 2 of Trinity's 3 good players were in foul trouble the whole time. Seriously, all those guards for Trinity are garbage. Volk did his best to win a state tournament game all on his own.

[70runner]

i agree Playin's system doesn't prevent any of those things but I would argue that a team like Trenton may not even be in the tournament this weekend in a four region set up. Then again after their performance last night they may have knocked either Trinity or Beulah off to make the tourney. I liked the point that was made about geography earlier and the 4 region format could limit that a bit. With any system their will be issues but I think the current system allows for a better sample of what every part of the state offers. Lamoure plays a type of basketball Trinity obviously struggled with yesterday.

I just need to throw in a couple things.

Trenton would not have beat Trinity or Beulah playing like they did yesterday. They played pretty well, but they also played the worst team in the tournament, maybe 2nd worst, Cavalier and Shiloh are close in my opinion.

It wasn't Lamoure's style of ball that cause Trinity problems it was Lamoure having a super hot start, and 2 of Trinity's 3 good players were in foul trouble the whole time. Seriously, all those guards for Trinity are garbage. Volk did his best to win a state tournament game all on his own.

With as close as the games were this year, There is no way anyone can make an argument such as "Trenton would not have beat Trinity or Beulah playing like they did yesterday" Nobody could have predicted what happened at this years tournament. All games were outstanding and exciting. I think this years tournament totally negates any argument that the system is Broken. I think for this year you could throw in the next top 10 teams and probably still have very close games.

This years tournament is a perfect example of anything can happen and thats why they play the game.

[70runner]

Also, just because a team didn't play well in a game against (any team) on any given night doesn't mean that they would have played that way against another team on that same night. There is so much that goes into the emotion of the game, it would probably take a team of psychologists to figure out why one team affects the play of another team the way they do. I could say that had Four Winds shot the 3 pointers like they did against Trenton, they would have beaten Milnor by a bunch. And then I could say that therefore, Trenton would have beat Milnor had they beat Four-Winds the night before. But the fact is they didn't, the game was played. And every team earned there spot in the end. That is a fact for the whole system, from the beginning of the District Tournaments to the Final Game Saturday night. The system is not broken, not even close. Maybe there are some flaws, but there will be flaws in every system with the flaws changing every year.

[Sportsrube]

Also, just because a team didn't play well in a game against (any team) on any given night doesn't mean that they would have played that way against another team on that same night. There is so much that goes into the emotion of the game, it would probably take a team of psychologists to figure out why one team affects the play of another team the way they do. I could say that had Four Winds shot the 3 pointers like they did against Trenton, they would have beaten Milnor by a bunch. And then I could say that therefore, Trenton would have beat Milnor had they beat Four-Winds the night before. But the fact is they didn't, the game was played. And every team earned there spot in the end. That is a fact for the whole system, from the beginning of the District Tournaments to the Final Game Saturday night. The system is not broken, not even close. Maybe there are some flaws, but there will be flaws in every system with the flaws changing every year.

Very well said. I agree, the system is not "broken" and it works just fine the way it is. You want to get to state, beat the team in front of you. My team lost in the Regional Championship and that not cool, but if you want to get to state, win 3 games in the Regional Tournament.

[maddog1971]

The best part about the Class B is the upsets and the small guy scoring over the 6'10 kid for the last second victory or hitting the half court shot.
And who judges who is the best team in State?? The ranking system really does not mean that much to me.... if you are going to state you have to just win 3 games in a row.... if you can not do that then you do not belong.
My four years in High School we were always ranked in the top 5 and we beat everybody during the regular season in both Class A and B teams we met.... each year somebody beat us in the region champion game.... that is life... we could not win the big game as a team. not cool but that is life.
North Star and the Miners went home because they could not beat one of the best teams in state. end of story and see ya next year.
By the way what has happen to the size in the state.... where are all the 6'4 and 6'5 kids gone???