New idea

[ndlionsfan]

Keep District tournaments. It's important not to lose that excitement or revenue. But instead of having four teams qualify for regionals, have top two teams go on. It worked for decades, why wouldn't it work now? And I think a final four would also bring big crowds for two days of region tournaments. Problem with current super region proposal is that not every team has a shot. That's the beauty of district tournaments.You can't lose that IMO.

NDHSAA has already said that they will not accept any proposal that doesn't include an 8 team regional tournament. I disagree with you that not every team has a shot with the super region idea. I think it gives the underdog teams a better shot to make state. A top team gets knocked off and they are done and out of the picture, where as in districts they can still play their way back to the region and make state. That makes it much harder for the lesser teams to make it because a top team would have to be beat twice. Look at the Big East tourney in the past. Some lower seed have rattled off 5 straight wins to take the crown and that's what could happen with the super region too.

[sportsfan25]

Keep District tournaments. It's important not to lose that excitement or revenue. But instead of having four teams qualify for regionals, have top two teams go on. It worked for decades, why wouldn't it work now? And I think a final four would also bring big crowds for two days of region tournaments. Problem with current super region proposal is that not every team has a shot. That's the beauty of district tournaments.You can't lose that IMO.

NDHSAA has already said that they will not accept any proposal that doesn't include an 8 team regional tournament. I disagree with you that not every team has a shot with the super region idea. I think it gives the underdog teams a better shot to make state. A top team gets knocked off and they are done and out of the picture, where as in districts they can still play their way back to the region and make state. That makes it much harder for the lesser teams to make it because a top team would have to be beat twice. Look at the Big East tourney in the past. Some lower seed have rattled off 5 straight wins to take the crown and that's what could happen with the super region too.

I agree that cutting the district tournaments is something that isn't a good idea for all regions. I know there are some that are struggling, but to me the district tourneys are really just weeding out the bottom teams. I also think some re-districting could help so that there isn't such a desparity between number of teams in each district (and region). However, equating it to the NCAA tourney, our regional is really the "big dance" in that it is set to 64 teams who all have a shot to reach a title and can't lose a game to do it. 1 loss at regional time and you have no shot at a state tournament title. Now, there are some things like 3rd place games at regionals and the fact that all 8 teams at state play 3 games, but starting at Regionals it's really just a 64 team tournament to get to a single champion.

And to piggyback on ndlionsfan, I know Cavalier a couple of years ago was 3rd in their district tournament and then took 3rd at State. Not sure when else or how often that happens, but the current setup allows for it and I, personally, like it.

On the flip side, I also think the 7 region idea is a neat one, but I don't ever see it flying. We're just not that ready to make that jump. JMHO.

[ndlionsfan]

As someone stated before, it the state redistricted to even out the 8 regions, there would be 13-14 teams in each region. A super regional is nothing more than a current region tournament with 3-4 playin games. It will still weed out the lower tier teams since they will have to play a top seed to get into the round of 8. But what is does is eliminate a number of teams in one day, compared to using 3 days to eliminate 2-3 teams. It also makes it a little easier for a lower seeded team to get to the "regional" as they only have to knock off one higher team to do so, where in our current system they would have to knock off 2.

[Bisonguy06]

I just don't understand why district and regional boundaries almost never seem to change. It would take a domino effect of teams shifting from east to west to balance out our districts again, but it could be done.

For those of us in the west, think about how nicely Kenmare would fit in with the schools that we now know as Region 8, District 16. Same with Berthold in Region 8, District 15.

How about New Salem in with the schools that make up Region 7, District 14? Grant County in Region 7, District 13?

You would be breaking up some old rivalries and making some new ones by shifting schools around. My point is, geographically, it could be done in a way that makes sense.

[Indy5]

Same with Berthold in Region 8, District 15.

Would they be a good fit? Their regional tournament would be an hour and a half away instead of 20 minutes. Not sure where that district was played but once again their current district tournament was 20 minutes away. That's about as good as it gets.

[Bisonguy06]

Right now in my current region and in most others, the teams farthest from the regional site are about an hour and a half away. Though not ideal, this would be within reason based on the way that other schools are assigned to regions.

[Mandan]

How about this for the 8th spot in the 7 region scenario: Give it to the highest ranked team that did not make it to state. Kind of like a college team getting an at-large berth into the NCAA tourney because they got upset in their conference tourney, but were highly ranked all year. It would keep teams from being penalized just from being in a strong region, if you are ranked high enough you'd still have a shot.

[lovwatchingsports]

How about this for the 8th spot in the 7 region scenario: Give it to the highest ranked team that did not make it to state. Kind of like a college team getting an at-large berth into the NCAA tourney because they got upset in their conference tourney, but were highly ranked all year. It would keep teams from being penalized just from being in a strong region, if you are ranked high enough you'd still have a shot.

But we have ten guys who rank the teams and they are from where? bet they have never saw a game from more than half the ranked teams. who says their picks are right?

[Run4Fun2009]

How about this for the 8th spot in the 7 region scenario: Give it to the highest ranked team that did not make it to state. Kind of like a college team getting an at-large berth into the NCAA tourney because they got upset in their conference tourney, but were highly ranked all year. It would keep teams from being penalized just from being in a strong region, if you are ranked high enough you'd still have a shot.

But we have ten guys who rank the teams and they are from where? bet they have never saw a game from more than half the ranked teams. who says their picks are right?

That would be my issue too...those rankings can easily become incredibly biased on their own area and not of the correct team.

[Flip]

use the qrf like I suggested way earlier in the thread

[Bisonguy06]

Pretty clear here that the hang up would be in determining that 8th team. Media polls are flawed... So are computer formulas.

[classB4ever]

By the end of the year, the poll is pretty accurate. Have a play in game with the top 2 ranked teams that lost out. Pretty sure both of them would be willing to travel and the logistics should be able to be worked out.

[lovwatchingsports]

QRF no, look at this Region 6 has Rubgy ranked, Berthold ranked, DLB had been ranked, recieved votes, and westhope. Rugby 1st, westhope 2nd(107.6), DLB 3rd(160.4), Bethold 4th Because westhope didn't get it together until the end of the year they are not going to get picked, not fair!!

[ILoveBaseball21]

Something could be done with the week between districts and regionals...if you have 7 regions, there should be a playoff for the last spot...

[ILoveBaseball21]

Teams like Central Cass and Maple Valley are better than state qualifiers from other regions, shouldn't they have another shot at getting to state?

[ndlionsfan]

Everyone did have a shot to get to state....win their own region. If you can't win your region why should you get a second chance at state? We keep going to a point where everyone needs a medal.

On another note, people don't like the super region idea because not every team gets to experience a tournament atmosphere. Well, if you're not good enough in the regular season why should you be entitled to a tournament? Maybe that would make some kids/teams work harder in the offseason. Plus is a 5-6 team tournament really that much of a tourney? There are 2-3 girls teams already that have qualified for regions with only having 3-4 wins the entire season because they only have to win one tournament game to qualify.

[newkidontheblock]

By the end of the year, the poll is pretty accurate. Have a play in game with the top 2 ranked teams that lost out. Pretty sure both of them would be willing to travel and the logistics should be able to be worked out.

I don't want to slam the QRF. It's fun to talk about and I'm glad it's on here so we can use it for fun conversation. No way should it ever be used to pick how someone moves onto the next level. We have too many teams spread out too far to use that kind of system. Dickinson Trinity crushed Oak Grove in the regular season this year, and DTs only two losses were to the undefeated returning state champions. Yet OG finished with a higher QRF than DT. It would have been terrible to use QRF in that case.

[classB4ever]

By the end of the year, the poll is pretty accurate. Have a play in game with the top 2 ranked teams that lost out. Pretty sure both of them would be willing to travel and the logistics should be able to be worked out.

I don't want to slam the QRF. It's fun to talk about and I'm glad it's on here so we can use it for fun conversation. No way should it ever be used to pick how someone moves onto the next level. We have too many teams spread out too far to use that kind of system. Dickinson Trinity crushed Oak Grove in the regular season this year, and DTs only two losses were to the undefeated returning state champions. Yet OG finished with a higher QRF than DT. It would have been terrible to use QRF in that case.

I was suggesting the final media poll not QRF or RPI. Realize it's not going to happen, but still fun to discuss.

[NDplayin]

Everyone did have a shot to get to state....win their own region. If you can't win your region why should you get a second chance at state? We keep going to a point where everyone needs a medal.

This is such a misunderstanding of the true problem. You're right, each individual team did have the opportunity to qualify for the state tournament. That's not the issue. The issue is that there was zero chance for some of the top tier teams to go.

Congratulations to Shiloh and Trenton for qualifying for the state tournament. They earned their way through the current system and deserve all the credit that goes with that accomplishment. However, Shiloh and Trenton are not top tier teams in this years Class B pool.

Nobody loves an upset more than I do- I love it when a top tier team get's upset by a non-top tier team and we all get to dance with Cinderella. Such situations puts the responsibility on the top-tier team for losing a game they should have won... they had opportunity and blew it.

What I don't support, can't support, and never will support is a system that so frequently automatically eliminates top-tier teams. I'd say this year at most we'd say the highest number of top-tier teams we could identify would be Beulah, North Star, Trinity, Rugby, and Four Winds- that's 5. Now by the current system- that means 2 of the 5 top tier teams are automatically out of the tournament guaranteed.

Again, when a top tier team gets upset and loses their opportunity that's an exciting thing and part of the education process for both sides. But when you have Beulah vs. Trinity and North Star vs. Four Winds with two of those four automatically gone while Shiloh plays Garrison and Trenton plays Tioga- That's a broken system.

That has nothing to do with giving everybody a medal.

On another note, people don't like the super region idea because not every team gets to experience a tournament atmosphere. Well, if you're not good enough in the regular season why should you be entitled to a tournament? Maybe that would make some kids/teams work harder in the offseason. Plus is a 5-6 team tournament really that much of a tourney? There are 2-3 girls teams already that have qualified for regions with only having 3-4 wins the entire season because they only have to win one tournament game to qualify.

I'll say this while I'm at it. The game is NOT about us the fans. It's about the student-athletes. Having every student-athlete experience a tournament atmosphere has nothing to do with entitlement- another total misunderstanding of the true problem. By excluding 4 teams from tournaments, you're excluding about 60 players and countless student body fans the educational experience of the highs and lows of tournament play. No one needs to be guaranteed to move on to the next level of tournament (like the current system comes very close to doing)- not everyone needs to win a game at the tournament, but every student-athlete should get that educational experience. It's about them.

I totally agree with you! 5-6 teams isn't much of a tournament when you take 4 of them to the next level. However, 5-6 teams makes a good district tournament if only 2 move onto the next level. That's one of the countless number of reasons why we should keep 16 districts, but have 2 teams from each district moving onto one of 4 regions, and 2 teams from each of the 4 regions moving onto the State Tournament.

[Flip]

I don't want to slam the QRF. It's fun to talk about and I'm glad it's on here so we can use it for fun conversation. No way should it ever be used to pick how someone moves onto the next level. We have too many teams spread out too far to use that kind of system. Dickinson Trinity crushed Oak Grove in the regular season this year, and DTs only two losses were to the undefeated returning state champions. Yet OG finished with a higher QRF than DT. It would have been terrible to use QRF in that case.

If they used the QRF teams like DT would need to schedule some good teams to avoid this happening.

[newkidontheblock]

I don't want to slam the QRF. It's fun to talk about and I'm glad it's on here so we can use it for fun conversation. No way should it ever be used to pick how someone moves onto the next level. We have too many teams spread out too far to use that kind of system. Dickinson Trinity crushed Oak Grove in the regular season this year, and DTs only two losses were to the undefeated returning state champions. Yet OG finished with a higher QRF than DT. It would have been terrible to use QRF in that case.

If they used the QRF teams like DT would need to schedule some good teams to avoid this happening.

You don't think they do? I bet they consistently play one of the top 5 strongest schedules in the state. Playing Beulah, Hazen, Heart River plus whichever other teams are having a good year in their region (in the past, Bowman, Killdeer, Mott-Regent, New England have had strong teams). Plus consistently playing Shiloh, Oak Grove, Linton, and Watford City in non-region games.

[Hinsa]

NDplayin: I agree that the game is for the players.

I disagree with your statement that some of the top teams had zero chance to make it to state. Win and you are in. I understand your point about wanting the top teams in the state tournament, but saying that these top teams had zero chance is just not true. What you mean is that there was zero chance that the "best" teams make the state tournament.

I disagree with your contention that 60 players, their coaches, and fans are excluded from the the state tournament. That is a false statement. No matter who is at the state tournament, there are 8 teams participating. They just aren't the right 8 teams in your opinion. Who is to say that it is more important for the "best" 8 teams to experience state, or 8 teams that are the best from their area experience state.

This is where you and I differ. You want the best 8 statewide, I think it's fine to have the best 8, one from each area.

This point is inarguable: No matter WHAT system you use, someone is going to feel left out, feel like they got hosed.

[Flip]

If they used the QRF teams like DT would need to schedule some good teams to avoid this happening.

You don't think they do? I bet they consistently play one of the top 5 strongest schedules in the state. Playing Beulah, Hazen, Heart River plus whichever other teams are having a good year in their region (in the past, Bowman, Killdeer, Mott-Regent, New England have had strong teams). Plus consistently playing Shiloh, Oak Grove, Linton, and Watford City in non-region games.[/quote]
My apologies I said that without know their non district schedule.

I still think you need to use a computer ranking, if you let humans choose you will always have biases.

[Flip]

You don't think they do? I bet they consistently play one of the top 5 strongest schedules in the state. Playing Beulah, Hazen, Heart River plus whichever other teams are having a good year in their region (in the past, Bowman, Killdeer, Mott-Regent, New England have had strong teams). Plus consistently playing Shiloh, Oak Grove, Linton, and Watford City in non-region games.

My apologies I said that without know their non district schedule.

I still think you need to use a computer ranking, if you let humans choose you will always have biases.

[ndlionsfan]

I'll say this while I'm at it. The game is NOT about us the fans. It's about the student-athletes. Having every student-athlete experience a tournament atmosphere has nothing to do with entitlement- another total misunderstanding of the true problem. By excluding 4 teams from tournaments, you're excluding about 60 players and countless student body fans the educational experience of the highs and lows of tournament play. No one needs to be guaranteed to move on to the next level of tournament (like the current system comes very close to doing)- not everyone needs to win a game at the tournament, but every student-athlete should get that educational experience. It's about them.

The super regional idea does not exclude any teams from the tournament. Everyone plays in the first round of the tournament and the top few teams get a bye. It's a 4 level tourney instead of the current 3 level for regionals. Region 7 proposed playing those first games at the higher seed's home site. They could be played at a nuetral tournament site easy enough if it was a big concern that everyone gets to play in a "tournament".

While we are talking about the students, is it always beneficial to have a poor team play 2 games in the tournament so they can get humiliated by 30-40 points twice instead of just once? I've coached teams in that predictament when the top seeds were absolutely loaded and there was no chance of us staying within 25 points of their JV. Neither team wins in that case and to have to do it two nights in a row is not a great experience for the students either.

Nobody was talking about kids being able to experience a tournament atmosphere when there were playin games to many district tournaments no more than 5 years ago. This is the same thing, just that it's to get into a 8 team single elimination tournament rather than a double.