New idea

[ndlionsfan]

What I don't support, can't support, and never will support is a system that so frequently automatically eliminates top-tier teams.

I have asked you before to provide a list for the last 10 year of which these top tier teams that didn't make state because another top tier team was in their same region, while another region had much weaker teams. Do you have any idea of how many times this happens or are you just sore that your top tier team didn't make it this season?

[classB4ever]

What I don't support, can't support, and never will support is a system that so frequently automatically eliminates top-tier teams.

I have asked you before to provide a list for the last 10 year of which these top tier teams that didn't make state because another top tier team was in their same region, while another region had much weaker teams. Do you have any idea of how many times this happens or are you just sore that your top tier team didn't make it this season?

Out of Region 4 in recent years, I would say Northstar in 2010.

[ndlionsfan]

Yes, I would agree with Northstar in 2010 and this season. But if there aren't at least an average of a couple teams each season, does it make sense to completely overhaul the system and say its broken and a joke?

[classB4ever]

No, absolutely not. Thought you were asking for a list from the past and Region 4 is what I watch the most.

[old#63]

Yes, I would agree with Northstar in 2010 and this season. But if there aren't at least an average of a couple teams each season, does it make sense to completely overhaul the system and say its broken and a joke?

I'm sure it happens every season in one or two regions. But even if you go with NDplayin's idea of 4 regions instead of 8, there is no guarantee that it still won't happen. In fact the quality of the 8 teams that make it into the 4 regionals will be that much better, so your so called "top teams" might get knocked out in the first or second round of regionals. I remember the old days when you only took two teams from districts to regionals and there were plenty of times that some great teams didn't even get out of districts. Granted, that was back when we didn't run these "get in through the back door" districts. I like 8 regions, then every part of the state has a somewhat local representative.

[NDplayin]

What I don't support, can't support, and never will support is a system that so frequently automatically eliminates top-tier teams.

I have asked you before to provide a list for the last 10 year of which these top tier teams that didn't make state because another top tier team was in their same region, while another region had much weaker teams.

I just looked and looked for the long thread on here that was called "Best Team not to Qualify for State," and either it has disappeared, been deleted, or I'm blind. I know it was just recently there because there was a guy very adamant that Bowman was one of the best 3 teams in the state the year that Dickinson Trinity beat MPCG in the championship. I wish I could have found it to link for you because it would have answered your question well. Some of the teams listed in that thread had been beaten by a Cinderella, but much more common were the teams who lost to an eventual state champion by a narrow margin (often more narrow than their games at state), and whose only losses had been to that same state champion or other top tier teams who made it. I'd say nearly every (not every- but nearly) year two of our 4 to 6 top tier teams are in the same region (doesn't matter which region... it switches up) and that other regions end up with regional championship games where neither team is that caliber. That is a flat out problem.

Do you have any idea of how many times this happens or are you just sore that your top tier team didn't make it this season?

I've been pushing this 4 region idea for 5 years when I first joined this site, and when I started the "broken" thread- I intentionally did so the Wednesday before Regional Championships were played so it wouldn't give the false impression that I was "sore" about anything.

I don't know an exact number to tell you of how many times a top tier team has played a top tier team in one region championship while two simply above average teams played in another region championship, but I do know that it is FAR too frequently. Would it still happen in 4 regions- once in a great while, not often. 4 regions would be much more consistent in giving all the top tier teams an opportunity to earn a trip to state.

[ndlionsfan]

I just looked and looked for the long thread on here that was called "Best Team not to Qualify for State," and either it has disappeared, been deleted, or I'm blind. I know it was just recently there because there was a guy very adamant that Bowman was one of the best 3 teams in the state the year that Dickinson Trinity beat MPCG in the championship. I wish I could have found it to link for you because it would have answered your question well. Some of the teams listed in that thread had been beaten by a Cinderella, but much more common were the teams who lost to an eventual state champion by a narrow margin (often more narrow than their games at state), and whose only losses had been to that same state champion or other top tier teams who made it. I'd say nearly every (not every- but nearly) year two of our 4 to 6 top tier teams are in the same region (doesn't matter which region... it switches up) and that other regions end up with regional championship games where neither team is that caliber. That is a flat out problem.

I have been reading that topic as well. But still, there is not enough hard evidence that this is a problem that needs fixing to me. Don't get me wrong, I like that we are discussing new ways to make class B more competitive, exciting, etc. I just need some hard facts, that is all. So let's go with this and maybe people can help fill it in for us.

2013 - Northstar, Beulah
2012-
2011-
2010- Northstar
2009-
2008-
2007-
2006- Bowman, Mwkn/Leeds
2005 - Mwkn/Leeds
2004-

Now this is not just for great teams that didn't make state. This would be for great teams that were FAR better than other teams that made the state tournament from other regions. I would also remind people to be careful and if another top, dominant team got beat out by a much lesser team in their region that would not count. Just talking about representatives from regions that were overall down in any given year.

[winner-within]

Splitting the Regions wont solve what you call a vibrant problem........and for the record, in the days of only the top 2 District teams went to the Regions this dilemma was happening in the District tournament....its like this....Cavalier was rated 3erd?? in the first poll this year....then drifted out of the top 10...are they average?? nope, they have 5 loses of which 2 are from District opponent Grafton/St Thomas....Now I personally believe the best team won and is at state representing Region 2......truth is if they have a good tournament, and I believe they will, well they could come close or better their original rating 3erd........in sports its about proving yourself

[NDplayin]

Hinsa, I like your post and replied to it once- either I didn't submit it properly or it got deleted for a reason unknown to me. I'll give it another shot, point by point.

NDplayin: I agree that the game is for the players.

Awesome, I love that. If a person agrees with that point both in theory and in practice than I'm happy to civilly debate the details of what is/isn't in the players best interests with them.

I disagree with your statement that some of the top teams had zero chance to make it to state. Win and you are in. I understand your point about wanting the top teams in the state tournament, but saying that these top teams had zero chance is just not true. What you mean is that there was zero chance that the "best" teams make the state tournament.

You don't disagree as much as you think, because you repeat exactly what I mean- which is exactly what I thought I said. The way the system is now- it is a guarantee that not all the top tier teams make the tournament- impossible for it to happen. Mind you, I doubt we ever have a full 8 top tier teams in any year... usually probably 4 to 6, but it happens so often that two of those are in the same region.

It almost never happens that you actually get all the top tier teams to the tournament, but that should be because one of those teams lost to a Cinderella (which I love)- and not because the system automatically disqualified one of them (which I hate).

This year is a prime example of the problem that is repeating in front of us too often. We all know the media poll is flawed and political and never perfect, but it will serve us well for this discussion. This year we had teams 1 vs 3 in one region. and teams 2 vs. 5 in another region. Two of those top tier teams will be out of the tournament and not because they blew it to a Cinderella. Meanwhile in other regions, you had the 8 team vs a team who didn't get a vote all year... you had the 10 team vs a team who didn't get a vote all year, and two teams playing who neither of them appear in the final poll.

That kind of common disparity is why I call the system broken.

I disagree with your contention that 60 players, their coaches, and fans are excluded from the the state tournament. That is a false statement. No matter who is at the state tournament, there are 8 teams participating. They just aren't the right 8 teams in your opinion. Who is to say that it is more important for the "best" 8 teams to experience state, or 8 teams that are the best from their area experience state.

Simple misunderstanding. When I wrote that I was not talking about teams who don't get to go to state like you thought I did. I was talking about teams who don't even get to play in a district. Those are the ones being robbed of the educational experience of a tournament atmosphere.

This is where you and I differ. You want the best 8 statewide, I think it's fine to have the best 8, one from each area.

Again not as different as you think we are. I don't want all of the best 8 teams statewide- I want the opportunity to have all of the best 8 teams statewide- or at least the opportunity for all of the top tier teams to go. Again, 5 beating 2 and 3 beating 1 are not Cinderella situations.

4 Regions doesn't change the idea that you can cheer for the representatives from your area. All it does it redefine what your area is and give you two representatives instead of one.

This point is inarguable: No matter WHAT system you use, someone is going to feel left out, feel like they got hosed.

It is inarguable that someone is going to FEEL left out and that someone will FEEL like they got hosed. What is arguable is if anyone ACTUALLY did get hosed. The current system we have actually excludes top tier teams who didn't get upset by a Cinderella year in a year out while other regions have two Cinderellas playing each other. That is a broken system.

Could a similar thing still happen with the 4 regions- of course- and it would OCCASIONALLY happen. The major difference is that it would happen much, much less frequently. Which is why it would be a better system for the current climate of North Dakota Class B Basketball

[Bisonguy06]

We're drifting from my original idea. Here it is:

1) Eliminate one region
2) Re-draw boundaries to create 14 districts and 7 regions.
At this time, ND has enough schools for all districts to have 7-8 teams, all regions would have 15-16.
3) Play out districts and regionals as we have in the past. 7 regional champs advance to state.
4) Award the 8th state tournament berth to the strongest remaining team (several ideas have been submitted here.)

I'm just going to throw out an estimate here - I'd say this would stretch your district's boundaries by about 20 miles and your region's boundaries by about 30 miles, on average.

It's a way to preserve our current system, with meaningful district tournaments leading to a regional tournament, with the champion advancing.

Is this better than what we have?

[NDplayin]

Splitting the Regions wont solve what you call a vibrant problem........and for the record, in the days of only the top 2 District teams went to the Regions this dilemma was happening in the District tournament....its like this....Cavalier was rated 3erd?? in the first poll this year....then drifted out of the top 10...are they average?? nope, they have 5 loses of which 2 are from District opponent Grafton/St Thomas....Now I personally believe the best team won and is at state representing Region 2......truth is if they have a good tournament, and I believe they will, well they could come close or better their original rating 3erd........in sports its about proving yourself

Replying to the two points I underlined in order.

That was a different time in a different climate. Back them ND Class B had more than twice as many teams as we do now. The 32 district- 8 region and 16 district 8 region systems were both at one time great systems in a great time when the larger number of participating schools warranted it. As the number of participating schools shrinks, the problem of having multiple top tier teams in some regions and none in others just increases. A 4 region system would fit the current climate of ND Class B much better.

I agree that in sports it's about proving yourself... here's the problem:

Shiloh beating Garrision (congrats) does not prove to me that Shiloh should be a State Tournament team

Trenton beating Tioga (congrats) does not prove to me that Trenton should be a State Tournament team

Four Winds beating North Star does not prove to me that North Star should not be a State Tournament team- especially when Shiloh and Trenton are (congrats).

Dickinson Trinity beating Beulah does not prove to me that Beulah should not be a State Tournament team- especially when Shiloh and Trenton are (congrats).

[NDplayin]

Bisonguy06- I like parts of your idea but can't support it for one major reason. I don't like the part of the plan where one of the state tournament teams is decided in any other way than on the court.

[ndlionsfan]

We're drifting from my original idea. Here it is:

1) Eliminate one region
2) Re-draw boundaries to create 14 districts and 7 regions.
At this time, ND has enough schools for all districts to have 7-8 teams, all regions would have 15-16.
3) Play out districts and regionals as we have in the past. 7 regional champs advance to state.
4) Award the 8th state tournament berth to the strongest remaining team (several ideas have been submitted here.)

I'm just going to throw out an estimate here - I'd say this would stretch your district's boundaries by about 20 miles and your region's boundaries by about 30 miles, on average.

It's a way to preserve our current system, with meaningful district tournaments leading to a regional tournament, with the champion advancing.

Is this better than what we have?

I do like this idea in the fact that it does give us back good district tournaments. But I don't know how it could ever be agreed upon how to get the 8th team at state. I think the best solution is to redraw all the region lines so you have balanced regions at about 13 each and go with the super regional format statewide. Then you also get an extended regular season.

[ndlionsfan]

NDPlayin - Have you seen Trenton play this year? I have not. But just curious why you think they are such a poor team. Yes they beat Tioga in the region championship. If they would have beat Powers Lake, Newtown, or Watford in that game make them any better of a team? If TLMM makes it to state in Region 5 are you still as upset as if Shiloh had played Garrison to go to state? Yes, you could still argue that Trenton and TLMM aren't as good as Northstar and Beulah and probably be right, but wouldn't it be less of a glaring downfall if those two regions had worked out they way they should havE?

[winner-within]

Splitting the Regions wont solve what you call a vibrant problem........and for the record, in the days of only the top 2 District teams went to the Regions this dilemma was happening in the District tournament....its like this....Cavalier was rated 3erd?? in the first poll this year....then drifted out of the top 10...are they average?? nope, they have 5 loses of which 2 are from District opponent Grafton/St Thomas....Now I personally believe the best team won and is at state representing Region 2......truth is if they have a good tournament, and I believe they will, well they could come close or better their original rating 3erd........in sports its about proving yourself

Replying to the two points I underlined in order.

That was a different time in a different climate. Back them ND Class B had more than twice as many teams as we do now. The 32 district- 8 region and 16 district 8 region systems were both at one time great systems in a great time when the larger number of participating schools warranted it. As the number of participating schools shrinks, the problem of having multiple top tier teams in some regions and none in others just increases. A 4 region system would fit the current climate of ND Class B much better.

I agree that in sports it's about proving yourself... here's the problem:

Shiloh beating Garrision (congrats) does not prove to me that Shiloh should be a State Tournament team

Trenton beating Tioga (congrats) does not prove to me that Trenton should be a State Tournament team

Four Winds beating North Star does not prove to me that North Star should not be a State Tournament team- especially when Shiloh and Trenton are (congrats).

Dickinson Trinity beating Beulah does not prove to me that Beulah should not be a State Tournament team- especially when Shiloh and Trenton are (congrats).

In 1992 when Munich (Marty McDonald) beat Langdon by a few points in the region championship, then went on to win state......(this is going to be just one example from an era that you say "things were different")

Could have we all been heart felt for Langdon???...Yep
was there a NDpreps do vent that heartfeltness?? Nope
would have Langdon won the Tournament at state too?? very well could of
Did Marty prove himself as a Champion....yep, in Baseball also

If things dont make sense to you when it comes to layouts and organizing tournaments so the best can be there then I suggest this........Climb Mountains.....Sail the Sea ....and realize "such is life"

[kingjames101]

Ok so we go on n on about the best teams are not playing in the state tourney. If they won their games And were playing in the tourney would u be happy then? The games we watch this weekend will be great games the fans will be happy n the tourney will have a great showing of fans. Nothing is perfect about the system when a individual doesn't like the outcome or his or her personal team doesn't make it n is better than other teams that r there. It's been this way for 30 plus years n will still happen even if there is changes. Best of luck to all teams at the State B this weekend.

[Bisonguy06]

Bisonguy06- I like parts of your idea but can't support it for one major reason. I don't like the part of the plan where one of the state tournament teams is decided in any other way than on the court.

Fair enough. In my original idea, I awarded two tournament berths to the region that produced the state champion in the previous year. This would be determined on the court. No polls, no computers, no voting. This enhances regional pride and interest in the tournament and makes for a stronger field.

[ILoveBaseball21]

Everyone did have a shot to get to state....win their own region. If you can't win your region why should you get a second chance at state? We keep going to a point where everyone needs a medal.

This is such a misunderstanding of the true problem. You're right, each individual team did have the opportunity to qualify for the state tournament. That's not the issue. The issue is that there was zero chance for some of the top tier teams to go.

Congratulations to Shiloh and Trenton for qualifying for the state tournament. They earned their way through the current system and deserve all the credit that goes with that accomplishment. However, Shiloh and Trenton are not top tier teams in this years Class B pool.

Nobody loves an upset more than I do- I love it when a top tier team get's upset by a non-top tier team and we all get to dance with Cinderella. Such situations puts the responsibility on the top-tier team for losing a game they should have won... they had opportunity and blew it.

What I don't support, can't support, and never will support is a system that so frequently automatically eliminates top-tier teams. I'd say this year at most we'd say the highest number of top-tier teams we could identify would be Beulah, North Star, Trinity, Rugby, and Four Winds- that's 5. Now by the current system- that means 2 of the 5 top tier teams are automatically out of the tournament guaranteed.

Again, when a top tier team gets upset and loses their opportunity that's an exciting thing and part of the education process for both sides. But when you have Beulah vs. Trinity and North Star vs. Four Winds with two of those four automatically gone while Shiloh plays Garrison and Trenton plays Tioga- That's a broken system.

That has nothing to do with giving everybody a medal.

On another note, people don't like the super region idea because not every team gets to experience a tournament atmosphere. Well, if you're not good enough in the regular season why should you be entitled to a tournament? Maybe that would make some kids/teams work harder in the offseason. Plus is a 5-6 team tournament really that much of a tourney? There are 2-3 girls teams already that have qualified for regions with only having 3-4 wins the entire season because they only have to win one tournament game to qualify.

I'll say this while I'm at it. The game is NOT about us the fans. It's about the student-athletes. Having every student-athlete experience a tournament atmosphere has nothing to do with entitlement- another total misunderstanding of the true problem. By excluding 4 teams from tournaments, you're excluding about 60 players and countless student body fans the educational experience of the highs and lows of tournament play. No one needs to be guaranteed to move on to the next level of tournament (like the current system comes very close to doing)- not everyone needs to win a game at the tournament, but every student-athlete should get that educational experience. It's about them.

I totally agree with you! 5-6 teams isn't much of a tournament when you take 4 of them to the next level. However, 5-6 teams makes a good district tournament if only 2 move onto the next level. That's one of the countless number of reasons why we should keep 16 districts, but have 2 teams from each district moving onto one of 4 regions, and 2 teams from each of the 4 regions moving onto the State Tournament.

*thumbs up* - totally agree with you

Major problem of getting that eighth team is that having a playoff could be hard with like North Star having to travel all the way to Beulah to play one game, UNLESS you had the play-in type game at the state tournament. How those teams are decided I don't know but a possible solution to a travel issue.

[Run4Fun2009]

Bisonguy06- I like parts of your idea but can't support it for one major reason. I don't like the part of the plan where one of the state tournament teams is decided in any other way than on the court.

Fair enough. In my original idea, I awarded two tournament berths to the region that produced the state champion in the previous year. This would be determined on the court. No polls, no computers, no voting. This enhances regional pride and interest in the tournament and makes for a stronger field.

What if that region's team was really poor and the only decent team in that Region was the one that won the region tourney. My point is it could be a down year in that region the following year except for let's say one team.

There's no easy way to fix the regions/qualifying for state...which is why I'm sure the NDHSAA would never change it.

That being said...I don't mind how they do the qualifying for state right now. I just kinda wish they would seed the State Tourney instead of Pre-Determined Regions.

[Bisonguy06]

Yes this could happen.
Or, more likely...
The region would remain strong the following year and would fill the two tournament berths that it earned with two strong teams.

[ndlionsfan]

And what if Grafton would have won state last year (which they very well could have). If Region 2 got two teams in this season people would be in an uproar that the system needed to be fixed. It just worked out this season that the two region in last year's championship also had two strong teams each this season.

If you were to award an 8th spot it would have to be done based on something in the current season. There is too much turnover and change to use a previous season as a benchmark.

[classB4ever]

Like the concept of dropping to 7 regions and redistricting to get the field back to 8 teams per district. Think it will be a tough sell to get rid of district tournaments in favor of a super regional. However, coming up with the eighth team will probably be as tough.
1. Media and coaches polls will become too easy to be influenced. Buddy/buddy system will start taking place.
2. Absolutely against giving a region 2 spots because they won the state the year before. No team should benefit from a team's success a year earlier.
3. Basically, it would have to come down to a power formula. Maybe an average of QRF, RPI and where the team finished in the current year's regional tournament.

[ndlionsfan]

If we're looking at 7 regions, why not go 6? At 7 regions and 14 districts, you are still sitting at best 7 teams per district. In another 5 years we could possibly be right back at where we are now with 6 teams per distict, some maybe less. If you went down to 6 regions, 12 districts where we are right now would be about 9 per district. It allows for a little decline in the number of teams which would give the system a longer life span. I still like the super region format best, but if its an absolute must to keep the district tourneys going this would be an alternative I could support. But again, the question is how do you choose/qualify the other 2 teams?

[classB4ever]

Fair point. I get 16 for 5 and 15 for 2. Figured eventually it could probably go to 6. Still think an averaged power formula would be the only way. If a team has very strong teams in their district and region, it will show in an averaged power formula. Those teams are the most likely to be the ones who got knocked out.

[The Schwab]

The State B tournament has always been my favorite time of the year, why? Because it proves that any team regardless of record can make it to the B. So your region has 2 or more tough teams does that mean we should take away from the accomplishments of a team that won from a "weak" region? Absolutely not. If you want multiple teams from a region to go to state go play Class A.