New idea

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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:59 am

The Schwab wrote:The State B tournament has always been my favorite time of the year, why? Because it proves that any team regardless of record can make it to the B. So your region has 2 or more tough teams does that mean we should take away from the accomplishments of a team that won from a "weak" region? Absolutely not. If you want multiple teams from a region to go to state go play Class A.

And taking 2 teams from 4 regions would change the fact that any team regardless of record could make the state B? You could still have a losing record, get hot at the right time, and go... that doesn't change.

Does it take away from the accomplishment of teams that won from a weak region- that's not the intent... However, have they earned a trip to state anymore than the runners-up from the strong regions? I
'd rather not use specific teams because that's what gives you the idea that I'm trying to take away from them, but it is necessary. You tell me. Does Shiloh beating Garrison mean that Shiloh deserves a trip to state more than North Star does? More than Beulah does? Does Trenton beating Tioga mean that they've "earned" it more than North Star or Beulah?
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Re: New idea

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:18 pm

But Tioga and Garrison earned their way to those championship games are cindarellas beating teams that only a few had before them.
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:54 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:But Tioga and Garrison earned their way to those championship games are cindarellas beating teams that only a few had before them.

Who did they beat that was a top tier team? I don't see a single top tier team in either of those regions. You can't have a Cinderella unless you have an Ugly Step Sister and there wasn't one of those.
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Re: New idea

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 pm

NDplayin, maybe you answered this, but in your opinion how many top tier teams are there in the state?
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Re: New idea

Postby classB4ever » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:16 pm

This isn't directed at anybody in general, just an observation:

Every year, different teams lose out and there are a lot of "emotional" posts concerning change. Many of us have been involved in discussing different ideas for many years on this board. I have went back and looked at posts from certain posters who were against change then but have changed their minds now. Whether it is because of an emotional loss or the fact of reading more and hearing more, I don't know. Personally, it bothers me that posters come on and say there is absolutely "nothing" wrong with our current system. Personally, I am not sure there is a better system out there right now, but I certainly don't think it hurts for us to discuss ideas.
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:35 pm

Flip wrote:NDplayin, maybe you answered this, but in your opinion how many top tier teams are there in the state?

It obviously changes season by season... In this season I would say 5 top tier teams and 2 of them were automatically eliminated. I'll go with Beulah, North Star, Dickinson Trinity, Rugby, Four Winds as top tier.

Why? A wise man once told me that your losses mean more than your victories. In other words, a loss to a weaker team hurts you image more than a victory over a better team helps your image. If you look at those top five teams, Beulah's and Dickinson Trinity's only losses are to each other- Rugby's only loss is to North Star- North Star's only loss is to Four Winds- and Four Winds only losses are to North Star and Beulah. None of those losses do much to tarnish their image in my mind. Every other team has a loss to a team that I think a top tier team should beat.
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Re: New idea

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:37 pm

Since there are only 5 top tier teams in the state, why don't we just put them together in a round robin tournament (has to be fair) and let them battle it out for the crown?
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Re: New idea

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:39 pm

How many top tier teams are in NCAA Div 1 basketball? Every year there are teams with bad losses that are still considered a top team. Many champions have bad losses to teams they shouldn't have lost to.
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Re: New idea

Postby old#63 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:42 pm

How many would agree with me when I say, "There is less parity in class B today than there used to be." ???

That's why we discuss "big schools" or "parochials" getting to state too often. That's why we discuss 3 classes. That's why we discuss "top teir" teams not making it. The lack of parity is the root problem. Your thoughts?
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Re: New idea

Postby winner-within » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:43 pm

I agree, I love the new Idea topics....but I dislike when people say "the best team didn't go".....when I predict who will be there (and I predicted NS and Beulah wouldn't be) I use the logic of
1. who has ever went 3 times in a row
2. even 2 times in a row is a major task
3. I use logic like in the NFL or NBA or NCAA, meaning what field is it hard to win on, or who owns who at home


I also know that the current system would plain out and be alot more productive if the State would look hard at taking advantage of the majorly successful economy weather it be Ag or Oil patch....and help fund the building a few schools to where more areas had a school with 45-50 kids in each grade from k-12
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:53 pm

winner-within wrote:If things dont make sense to you when it comes to layouts and organizing tournaments so the best can be there then I suggest this........Climb Mountains.....Sail the Sea ....and realize "such is life"

Because there is no perfect system, there's never going to be 100% consensus regarding what the best system is... The debate will always be over what system is closest to perfect. I realize not everyone is going to fall head over heels with the 4 region idea, especially when they don't understand it. I'm passionate about the topic and love the debate... However, there are a few arguments that really frustrate me, and I feel like I better address them now before my frustration boils over and I react in a less than civil manner.

The "Climb Mountains... Sail the Sea... Such is Life..." Argument
Let's get real. Do you think there wouldn't be Mountains and Seas in the 4 region idea? In reality, the Mountains get taller and the Seas get rougher.

First, it's harder to qualify for the 4 regions than 8 and the regional tournament field get WAY tougher. No more 1 seeds blowing away 4 seeds that may have only won 10% of their games all season. No more first round cake walks. Start taking two teams from 4 combined districts to a regional tournament and there will be no easy game, no cake walk, every team will be a good team.

There's no intention of making anything easier in this idea... no hint of "giving everybody a medal." If you want to talk about mountains, let's talk about mountains. Geographically, Region 7 is bordered by Region 5 and Region 8. I invite anyone to take a poll of Regions 5 and 8... ask all the coaches this hypothetical, if in this 2012/13 season, had their region been combined with region 7 and two teams getting to go... would their odds of making state gone up or down? We all know the answer- their odds go down... their mountain gets taller, the face more rugged; the sea gets rougher, the swells more violent.

I get it, the argument is about facing challenges and overcoming adversity, and the thought that life isn't always fair. All of which are a key part of the educational process... do you think that really goes away in the 4 region idea? No, those lessons remain. The important thing is that they are more evenly applied to everybody.

Right now: Someone has to climb Mount Everest to go to state while someone else skips over an ant hill.

4 Regions: Everybody gets a mountain... never an identical mountain, never perfectly evenly difficult... but much more consistently similar.


The "No one should be able to back their way into state with a loss" argument
This one bugs me for a couple reasons. Maybe the most because I think is shows a misunderstanding of how 4 regions works. The loser of the championship game is not always automatically moving on. In the common circumstance that the loser of the championship game didn't already play the winner of the 3rd place game in that tournament, those two teams return the next night for what's called a challenge game- winner moves on as the 2 seed.

Second, the idea that losing a game is always "backing in" to state. I'd say just as often, a team who won backs into state. I apologize for "picking on" one of the state tourney teams here, but the debate demands it. Shiloh Christian has losses to 4 region 7 teams this season... Dickinson Trinity, Mott-Regent, Beulah, and Hazen in that order. Now, if Shiloh had gotten hot and beat a top tier team in tournaments I would have said they played their best ball at the best time of year and called them a Cinderella.... That's not the case. They beat Washburn, Flasher, and Garrison in that order. Be honest with yourselves, can you really tell me that Shiloh didn't "back into state" even more than if Beulah and North Star had gotten to go after losing to Trinity and Four Winds?

The "We'll lose the great regional championship atmosphere if two teams go" argument
I know this to be false from experience.

First, I think the misunderstanding about the presence of the challenge game contributes to this one. Again, the loser of the championship game is not an automatic qualifier... very often they have to survive that challenge game to get to go. Because of the challenge game, It is extremely important to not only win the championship- but win the 3rd place game. Imagine actually having a meaningful 3rd place game adding to the atmosphere... In the current system that game is played out just to bring in extra fans and both teams no their season is over. In the four region system, those two teams are still fighting for life- so are their crowds. Plus the winner of the game now has a true rooting interest in the championship.

Second, if we're honest we'll realize there is more to a regional championship game than just qualifying for state... there is the pride of being the champion. News flash... it is twice as difficult and twice as rare to win one of 4 regions than it is to win one of 8. There's also twice as much pride associated with it. Crowds go crazy (in both games!) atmosphere is awesome.
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Re: New idea

Postby Flip » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:17 pm

NDplayin wrote:
The "We'll lose the great regional championship atmosphere if two teams go" argument
I know this to be false from experience.

please explain.
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Re: New idea

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:31 pm

NDplayin wrote:
Flip wrote:NDplayin, maybe you answered this, but in your opinion how many top tier teams are there in the state?

It obviously changes season by season... In this season I would say 5 top tier teams and 2 of them were automatically eliminated. I'll go with Beulah, North Star, Dickinson Trinity, Rugby, Four Winds as top tier.

Why? A wise man once told me that your losses mean more than your victories. In other words, a loss to a weaker team hurts you image more than a victory over a better team helps your image. If you look at those top five teams, Beulah's and Dickinson Trinity's only losses are to each other- Rugby's only loss is to North Star- North Star's only loss is to Four Winds- and Four Winds only losses are to North Star and Beulah. None of those losses do much to tarnish their image in my mind. Every other team has a loss to a team that I think a top tier team should beat.


Oak Grove's only losses before region championship game were against Hawley, MN (highly ranked) and Trinity. That along with the competition in Region 1, I would consider them "top tier".

TLMM lost to Berthold (few losses on the year) and couldn't find their other loss before being upset by Garrison. They also had a couple nice wins against Hazen and LHMB and some other wins weren't listed so there could have been more. Maybe no up there with the teams you mentioned, but definately no slouch.
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Re: New idea

Postby vb4life » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:49 pm

I have lots of problems with your "idea". First off, it is YOUR opinion and the opinion of the polls (which we all know can be biased) that 4 Winds, DT, Beulah and N. Star are the "TOP" teams in the state. Have they played every single team in the state....NO, and we all know that is impossible. That is why we have regionals tournaments- 8 regions to best showcase our talent in ND, is it always the "best" 8 in ND?!?! Who are we to judge? Great teams stay home every single year, guess what, that's called life. We are not always dealt the hand we wanted, guess what, that's life. We shouldn't have to change the system just to please everyone, guess what, that is never going to happen, someone is going to be upset no matter what you do. Second complaint I have is this, there are 8 teams on their way to Minot right now, 8 teams that played hard all year that DESERVE to be there. Please don't take anything away from these 8 teams, please quit saying well North Star "should" have been there and so and so doesn't deserve to be there. For the next 3 days let's focus on those 8 teams!! They have earned their right there, let's applaud them, and I can guarantee you that some of your so called "not top teams" will surprise you!
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Re: New idea

Postby winner-within » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:56 pm

Well said!!.......and the term "top tier" is really dumb
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Re: New idea

Postby vb4life » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:05 pm

winner-within wrote:Well said!!.......and the term "top tier" is really dumb

:)
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:07 pm

Flip wrote:
NDplayin wrote:
The "We'll lose the great regional championship atmosphere if two teams go" argument
I know this to be false from experience.

please explain.

I didn't invent this system out of mid-air. It's very similar to systems used and used very well in other states.

That being said, the fact that other states use this system is NOT a good reason for us to switch to it. North Dakota does several things way better than other states do it. However, with the declined number of participating schools in North Dakota from 15 and 20 years ago- I think we have reached the point where 4 regions would suit us much better than 8.
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:50 pm

I respect both sides of this debate- yours included- but I do get tired of responding to some of the same comments over and over by other people... Oh well, as sports as taught me well, "that's life" as you say... and I'll get over it.
vb4life wrote:I have lots of problems with your "idea". First off, it is YOUR opinion and the opinion of the polls (which we all know can be biased) that 4 Winds, DT, Beulah and N. Star are the "TOP" teams in the state. Have they played every single team in the state....NO, and we all know that is impossible. That is why we have regionals tournaments- 8 regions to best showcase our talent in ND, is it always the "best" 8 in ND?!?! Who are we to judge?

You're absolutely right, it is my opinion that there are 5 teams a level above the rest this year. Does that mean that I think those 5 are invincible and couldn't get knocked off by another team, obviously not... but my opinion of the evidence finds them to be clear favorites.

What's the point of this point? I could just as easily turn around and say "that's why we should have 4 regions to better showcase our talent in ND because we'd consistently give more of the best talent the opportunity to be there."

Some of the reactions to this idea act like it would be such a drastic change to the idea that the state is split up into regions and that there is a tournament to decide which representatives come out of each region... Where does that reaction come from??? The idea doesn't change any of that- it just very simple changes the number of regions to 4 for several good reasons which I keep laying out. Funny how seldom I get responses to those good reasons and how often I get responses about things that don't even change between the two systems.
vb4life wrote:Great teams stay home every single year, guess what, that's called life. We are not always dealt the hand we wanted, guess what, that's life. We shouldn't have to change the system just to please everyone, guess what, that is never going to happen, someone is going to be upset no matter what you do.

Who would have guessed that I'd have to respond to the "that's life" argument twice in half an hour.

Yea great teams do stay home every year. Great teams will always stay home every year. If we went to 4 Regions, great teams would still stay home. Why? Because that's life!

There's a major difference between these two things: Great teams staying home because the system automatically disqualified one of the two of them before the tournament ever began- and Great teams staying home because they lost a game to a team they shouldn't have.

Life isn't fair and never will be. That does and should apply to the fact that some are born more talented- some work harder to develop their talent- sometimes the ball rolls a certain way. Life isn't fair- but the system should be.

4 Regions wouldn't change the fact that life happens. It wouldn't change the fact that great teams would stay home. What it would do is open the opportunity for more great teams to make the state tournament. What those great teams would do with that opportunity is up to them.

While we're on this subject... here's another reason I get tired of the "that's life- it's not fair- deal with it and move on argument." That's exactly what I'm doing. Dealing with it. What I'm not doing is sweeping the problem under the rug and saying, "this is the way it was when I played, it's the way it was when my daddy played and my grand-daddy and my great-grand-daddy played."

Life isn't fair and never will be. The system isn't fair. If everyone took your approach to the fact that the system wasn't fair- then the Declaration of Independence never would have been signed, Abraham Lincoln would have never abolished slavery, Martin Luther King Jr. would have spent his life in a small Baptist church, Rosa Parks would have gotten up and moved to the back of the bus, and women wouldn't have the right to vote.
vb4life wrote: Second complaint I have is this, there are 8 teams on their way to Minot right now, 8 teams that played hard all year that DESERVE to be there. Please don't take anything away from these 8 teams, please quit saying well North Star "should" have been there and so and so doesn't deserve to be there. For the next 3 days let's focus on those 8 teams!! They have earned their right there, let's applaud them, and I can guarantee you that some of your so called "not top teams" will surprise you!

I hope like crazy that some of the not top tier teams surprise me. If they didn't that would be the most boring tournament ever. I'm so tired of defending this system against the "upsets are part of sports" idea. Do you serious think that I'm advocating 4 regions because I don't think upsets would happen? Get real.

Yes I use specific teams as examples and begrudgingly so, but any debate requires evidence and that's where it comes from. This has nothing to do with any specific team not going. It has to do with a group of teams not having the opportunity to go. Had North Star won and Beulah won the problem would still be that two teams were automatically disqualified by the system. While other schools go out of Regions that have less degree of difficulty than some Districts do.
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:09 pm

old#63 wrote:How many would agree with me when I say, "There is less parity in class B today than there used to be." ???

That's why we discuss "big schools" or "parochials" getting to state too often. That's why we discuss 3 classes. That's why we discuss "top teir" teams not making it. The lack of parity is the root problem. Your thoughts?

I would agree with you but add that it's a cause and effect situation.

Parity in anything increases as the number of teams increases. That's a mathematical thing. The more teams there are, the more there will be on the upper level (which is parity). The fewer teams, the less parity.

What do we expect? We have half the number of participating schools we used to have. There used to be 20-30 teams in a region and we used to see different teams come out of those regions all the time. Now there are 11-16 teams per region and we often see the same team or two making it out over and over again... We shouldn't be surprised.

The climate isn't the same it was in 1985 when 8 regions was the perfect fit.
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Re: New idea

Postby The Schwab » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:46 pm

Here's an idea, I know it's off topic but it's along the same lines.

If we are going to split into four regions lets divide the four regions into those under 100 and those over 100, have a champion from each group in those regions and have those 8 teams play in a state tournament. That way you have to win to advance.
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Re: New idea

Postby Kwoods » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:53 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:I don't dislike Bisonguy06's opinion above...other than the addition of the 8th team; but there could be other options for that 8th team than what is listed above.

Another idea:
Keep the 8 regions...get rid of Districts and have Super-Regionals (similar to MN Sections) for post season tourney. In this setup there's the potential to add 2 games to regular season schedule (from 19 to 21).



I agree with the super regional, I just witnessed a girl's district tournament where both the regional qualifiers were 50, 40 point blow outs. We need to find a way to get rid of these games not only for competition purposes but for the attendance since who wants to sit and watch these games before the championship game.

Also so used to the old ways or Class B I think that it would be hard to change the system. Part of what makes the class b environment so exciting.
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Re: New idea

Postby vb4life » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:06 pm

I also agree with the super regionals, do some redistricting and keep our 8 regions.
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Re: New idea

Postby old#63 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:54 pm

NDplayin wrote:
old#63 wrote:How many would agree with me when I say, "There is less parity in class B today than there used to be." ???

That's why we discuss "big schools" or "parochials" getting to state too often. That's why we discuss 3 classes. That's why we discuss "top teir" teams not making it. The lack of parity is the root problem. Your thoughts?

I would agree with you but add that it's a cause and effect situation.

Parity in anything increases as the number of teams increases. That's a mathematical thing. The more teams there are, the more there will be on the upper level (which is parity). The fewer teams, the less parity.

What do we expect? We have half the number of participating schools we used to have. There used to be 20-30 teams in a region and we used to see different teams come out of those regions all the time. Now there are 11-16 teams per region and we often see the same team or two making it out over and over again... We shouldn't be surprised.

The climate isn't the same it was in 1985 when 8 regions was the perfect fit.

I'll agree with you on the premise that as the number of teams diminishes it becomes less likely that any given region will produce a potential state championship caliber team in a given year. That's simply a matter of probability. But answer me this. Many other years in the past on preps, we have argued that the state B is turning into all big schools and perochials. Isn't your proposed format going to make that probability even worse? Under the current format, with a state qualifier being chosen from 11 to 16 teams, every once in a while a smaller school can catch a year when the 2 or 3 big powerhouse schools in their region are down and get a shot at state. By definition, when you change to choosing 2 qualifiers from a field of 25 to 30, it will keep that from happening as often. Instead of needing 2 or 3 bigs to have a down year, 5 or 6 would need to be down for that small school to have a decent shot. I respect your passion, and I understand your logic, but I just don't agree with the format.
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Re: New idea

Postby Kwoods » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:09 pm

old#63 wrote:
NDplayin wrote:
old#63 wrote:How many would agree with me when I say, "There is less parity in class B today than there used to be." ???

That's why we discuss "big schools" or "parochials" getting to state too often. That's why we discuss 3 classes. That's why we discuss "top teir" teams not making it. The lack of parity is the root problem. Your thoughts?

I would agree with you but add that it's a cause and effect situation.

Parity in anything increases as the number of teams increases. That's a mathematical thing. The more teams there are, the more there will be on the upper level (which is parity). The fewer teams, the less parity.

What do we expect? We have half the number of participating schools we used to have. There used to be 20-30 teams in a region and we used to see different teams come out of those regions all the time. Now there are 11-16 teams per region and we often see the same team or two making it out over and over again... We shouldn't be surprised.

The climate isn't the same it was in 1985 when 8 regions was the perfect fit.

I'll agree with you on the premise that as the number of teams diminishes it becomes less likely that any given region will produce a potential state championship caliber team in a given year. That's simply a matter of probability. But answer me this. Many other years in the past on preps, we have argued that the state B is turning into all big schools and perochials. Isn't your proposed format going to make that probability even worse? Under the current format, with a state qualifier being chosen from 11 to 16 teams, every once in a while a smaller school can catch a year when the 2 or 3 big powerhouse schools in their region are down and get a shot at state. By definition, when you change to choosing 2 qualifiers from a field of 25 to 30, it will keep that from happening as often. Instead of needing 2 or 3 bigs to have a down year, 5 or 6 would need to be down for that small school to have a decent shot. I respect your passion, and I understand your logic, but I just don't agree with the format.



Great point about making it easier on the bigger schools, look at the match ups in the regional championships this year would of been a lot of big schools with this format!
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Re: New idea

Postby NDplayin » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:34 am

old#63 wrote:I'll agree with you on the premise that as the number of teams diminishes it becomes less likely that any given region will produce a potential state championship caliber team in a given year. That's simply a matter of probability. But answer me this. Many other years in the past on preps, we have argued that the state B is turning into all big schools and perochials. Isn't your proposed format going to make that probability even worse? Under the current format, with a state qualifier being chosen from 11 to 16 teams, every once in a while a smaller school can catch a year when the 2 or 3 big powerhouse schools in their region are down and get a shot at state. By definition, when you change to choosing 2 qualifiers from a field of 25 to 30, it will keep that from happening as often. Instead of needing 2 or 3 bigs to have a down year, 5 or 6 would need to be down for that small school to have a decent shot. I respect your passion, and I understand your logic, but I just don't agree with the format.
What a great post!

We don't see eye to eye, but you actually addressed the topic and brought something new to the table. I love it.

This is what I'll say; I don't know if you're right or wrong and I'm also not certain it matters.

You might be right... Maybe more "bigs" would succeed in the 4 region system... Maybe you're wrong... Maybe opening it up to the small school that is "supposedly" playing second fiddle to the bigger school in their region. I can honestly see potential for it to play out both ways.

So I admit it could go either way- to me it doesn't matter because I think our enrollment range is fair. That's why I fight against 3 class proposals. I don't always want to see the top tier teams there, but I want the opportunity open to see them there. That's what I think is best for the student athletes of ND
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