Safe responsible play - officials,coaches,Parents?

[DaBears54]

During the class B boys district basketball tournament I watched a player while in the act of shooting get undercut by the opposing team. His head hit the floor first. Instead of stopping the game to check on the well being of the player that was curled up in a ball holding his head the referee let the game continue for at least 30 seconds. With all the concussion awareness and information now available shouldn't this game been stopped immediately? How does anyone know if that kid was having a seizure as a result of a head injury or not. The player was eventually helped and did not return to the game as a result of a concussion. As I continued to watch the game I noticed that through out the game there was a lot of incidents of this type of play. The officials if at all rarely called any fouls. At what point does it become “letting them play” to it being unsafe? Who's responsibility is it to keep these young men honest? The referees? The coaches? If I saw any of my kids pull a dirty foul over and over I would most certainly say something to them as their parent. The game is suppose to be fun and the best team with the most skill should win not the one with the biggest kid that can hit the hardest. Last time I looked this was basketball not football. This entire season of basketball and the many games I have attended I have noticed a change in how the game is being officiated. It isn't good and as a parent I am concerned about the safety of everyone playing. Does the NDHSAA wait for someone to get a severe head injury or a broken back/neck before something changes?

[kramer85]

Amen to that.

[vikingman]

Sounds like the same type of play that took out Hagler for 2 weeks (Hagler's was on a jump shot, your example sounds maybe more like a layup?). He'll probably be playing tonight, but I can definitely see a team or two in the Region trying to take him out again in the same way--going after the feet as he comes down. It's up to the refs to make that call.

[EHS1998]

The only thing i would add is that I don't know how the size of a player has anything to do with this. Dirty play is dirty play no matter what the size of a player and all players should be refereed the same regardless of size. Smaller players constantly flopping to get charging calls is probably more common than undercutting from what i have seen and just as dangerous in terms of causing injuries as you see kids flopping into other players knees. However, I will say that I have seen a marked improvement in refereeing the last couple of weeks in terms of consistency.

[Flip]

I will say that I have seen a marked improvement in refereeing the last couple of weeks in terms of consistency.

Its just variance. Watch enough and it will return to the mean.

[EHS1998]

LOL. Maybe, maybe not. I think they do the best job they can.

[Hinsa]

I disagree EHS. I don't think they do the best job they can, they do the job they are told to do by Valley City. And I think Valley City tells them to let 'em play as long as no one is gaining an advantage. Predictably, that has led to even more physical play.

Someone's pushing? Man up and push back. Ball is loose on the floor? Time for a football pileup. It used to be a foul to belly flop on top of someone trying to get the ball. Blocked shots? This season I have seen some of the most violent swings to block shots that I have ever seen. If the shot blocker gets a piece of the ball, to he!! with the fact that the shooter got his elbow broken and a concussion from the follow through on the block.

It's the trickle down effect from college. Scoring is down even more in college this year due to physical defense and it continues to affect how the high school game is called.

Call the game the way the rule book reads. Players and coaches will adjust because they won't want to foul out. And guess what - offensive flow will return to the game. Scoring will go back up. And it won't be because a shot clock is forcing teams to shoot more. It will be because natural offensive talent will take over again without the fear of getting mugged every time they shoot or make a foray into the lane.

[EHS1998]

I disagree EHS. I don't think they do the best job they can, they do the job they are told to do by Valley City. And I think Valley City tells them to let 'em play as long as no one is gaining an advantage. Predictably, that has led to even more physical play.

Someone's pushing? Man up and push back. Ball is loose on the floor? Time for a football pileup. It used to be a foul to belly flop on top of someone trying to get the ball. Blocked shots? This season I have seen some of the most violent swings to block shots that I have ever seen. If the shot blocker gets a piece of the ball, to he!! with the fact that the shooter got his elbow broken and a concussion from the follow through on the block.

It's the trickle down effect from college. Scoring is down even more in college this year due to physical defense and it continues to affect how the high school game is called.

Call the game the way the rule book reads. Players and coaches will adjust because they won't want to foul out. And guess what - offensive flow will return to the game. Scoring will go back up. And it won't be because a shot clock is forcing teams to shoot more. It will be because natural offensive talent will take over again without the fear of getting mugged every time they shoot or make a foray into the lane.

Excellent points Hinsa!

[dyhardballa09]

I don't see kids trying to hurt Hagler by undercutting him. I see that with his jumpshot, he kicks his feet into the defender. Look at where his jumpshot starts and where he comes down. He draws alot of fouls by doing this and then falling back. It is a great player getting to the line. But, in the instance of when he got hurt, he is kicking his feet into the defender and was bound to roll an ankle once or twice. I hope he is well and lights up the state tournament!

[Bisonguy06]

I think a lot of good points have been made here. I just have to point out that there are circumstances where it is correct for the official to let play continue for a short time. If one team's PG turns an ankle at half court and loses the ball, leading to an uncontested layup for the guard on the other team, the official is not supposed to blow the play dead until after the layup.

[leroybla]

During the class B boys district basketball tournament I watched a player while in the act of shooting get undercut by the opposing team. His head hit the floor first. Instead of stopping the game to check on the well being of the player that was curled up in a ball holding his head the referee let the game continue for at least 30 seconds. With all the concussion awareness and information now available shouldn't this game been stopped immediately? How does anyone know if that kid was having a seizure as a result of a head injury or not. The player was eventually helped and did not return to the game as a result of a concussion. As I continued to watch the game I noticed that through out the game there was a lot of incidents of this type of play. The officials if at all rarely called any fouls. At what point does it become “letting them play” to it being unsafe? Who's responsibility is it to keep these young men honest? The referees? The coaches? If I saw any of my kids pull a dirty foul over and over I would most certainly say something to them as their parent. The game is suppose to be fun and the best team with the most skill should win not the one with the biggest kid that can hit the hardest. Last time I looked this was basketball not football. This entire season of basketball and the many games I have attended I have noticed a change in how the game is being officiated. It isn't good and as a parent I am concerned about the safety of everyone playing. Does the NDHSAA wait for someone to get a severe head injury or a broken back/neck before something changes?

I question the "undercut" assertion here. To me, it looked more like a "flop gone wrong". I was there, too. Flopping has become much more epidemic in high school basketball than the injuries you write about DaBears54. Flopping is so commonplace in high school basketball now that officials likely "doubt" that an injury has taken place because someone flops on nearly every-other possession. I ask, when will HS basketball adopt anti-flopping fouls to separate serious injuries from plays for sympathy?

[d_fense]

bisonguy06 is right. The situation described, I would not have stopped play. If a player goes down and the ball is headed to and stays on the other end of the court, play should continue until the team who has a player down regains the ball. It would be a 5 on 4 situation and it should not take long for a team to get a good scoring chance up a player. Even in the unlikely case of a seizure, you do not want people standing around the injured player.

I have seen about 35-40 varsity games this winter, mainly in region 1, and I do not think that I have seen a dirty play yet. I think that games have got more physical during tournament play, but I don't think it is out of hand.

[DaBears54]

During the class B boys district basketball tournament I watched a player while in the act of shooting get undercut by the opposing team. His head hit the floor first. Instead of stopping the game to check on the well being of the player that was curled up in a ball holding his head the referee let the game continue for at least 30 seconds. With all the concussion awareness and information now available shouldn't this game been stopped immediately? How does anyone know if that kid was having a seizure as a result of a head injury or not. The player was eventually helped and did not return to the game as a result of a concussion. As I continued to watch the game I noticed that through out the game there was a lot of incidents of this type of play. The officials if at all rarely called any fouls. At what point does it become “letting them play” to it being unsafe? Who's responsibility is it to keep these young men honest? The referees? The coaches? If I saw any of my kids pull a dirty foul over and over I would most certainly say something to them as their parent. The game is suppose to be fun and the best team with the most skill should win not the one with the biggest kid that can hit the hardest. Last time I looked this was basketball not football. This entire season of basketball and the many games I have attended I have noticed a change in how the game is being officiated. It isn't good and as a parent I am concerned about the safety of everyone playing. Does the NDHSAA wait for someone to get a severe head injury or a broken back/neck before something changes?

I question the "undercut" assertion here. To me, it looked more like a "flop gone wrong". I was there, too. Flopping has become much more epidemic in high school basketball than the injuries you write about DaBears54. Flopping is so commonplace in high school basketball now that officials likely "doubt" that an injury has taken place because someone flops on nearly every-other possession. I ask, when will HS basketball adopt anti-flopping fouls to separate serious injuries from plays for sympathy?

I agree that anti-flopping fouls need to be addressed but I don't remember ever seeing a player who was in the act of shooting "flop" as you point out here. At what point does a player gain an advantage to "flop" while shooting? Regardless of what you think happened, what I saw and heard was that young man's head hit the floor first. He didn't roll his ankle and he didn't twist a knee. His head hit the floor before any other part of his body did. Mechanics of injury need to be thought about. I agree if he rolled his ankle let the break away layup or whatever happen. But because his injury was clearly to his head wouldn't common sense prevail here and play stopped to make sure there wasn't more going on with a potential head injury. Concussions are a serious injury and should be addressed immediately.

[Flip]

LOL. Maybe, maybe not. I think they do the best job they can.

I think they do the best job they too. I've just come the realization that officiating is poor. I rarely argue with a call, I've just learned to accept that they will make mistakes and I have to deal with it.

[MNTwinsFan]

LOL. Maybe, maybe not. I think they do the best job they can.

I think they do the best job they too. I've just come the realization that officiating is poor. I rarely argue with a call, I've just learned to accept that they will make mistakes and I have to deal with it.

I have heard a ref tell a kid "If you are perfect, you won't miss any shots. If I was perfect, I won't miss any calls". Any thoughts on that?

As far as the safety issue, just like every profession, they need to continue to be educated each and every year with things that can be done to make the game safer.

[MNTwinsFan]

I disagree EHS. I don't think they do the best job they can, they do the job they are told to do by Valley City. And I think Valley City tells them to let 'em play as long as no one is gaining an advantage. Predictably, that has led to even more physical play.

Someone's pushing? Man up and push back. Ball is loose on the floor? Time for a football pileup. It used to be a foul to belly flop on top of someone trying to get the ball. Blocked shots? This season I have seen some of the most violent swings to block shots that I have ever seen. If the shot blocker gets a piece of the ball, to he!! with the fact that the shooter got his elbow broken and a concussion from the follow through on the block.

It's the trickle down effect from college. Scoring is down even more in college this year due to physical defense and it continues to affect how the high school game is called.

Call the game the way the rule book reads. Players and coaches will adjust because they won't want to foul out. And guess what - offensive flow will return to the game. Scoring will go back up. And it won't be because a shot clock is forcing teams to shoot more. It will be because natural offensive talent will take over again without the fear of getting mugged every time they shoot or make a foray into the lane.

Do you think the inconsistency is because of officials doing college, high school (Boys and Girls) and the games are played and being called differently?

[winner-within]

I disagree EHS. I don't think they do the best job they can, they do the job they are told to do by Valley City. And I think Valley City tells them to let 'em play as long as no one is gaining an advantage. Predictably, that has led to even more physical play.

Someone's pushing? Man up and push back. Ball is loose on the floor? Time for a football pileup. It used to be a foul to belly flop on top of someone trying to get the ball. Blocked shots? This season I have seen some of the most violent swings to block shots that I have ever seen. If the shot blocker gets a piece of the ball, to he!! with the fact that the shooter got his elbow broken and a concussion from the follow through on the block.

It's the trickle down effect from college. Scoring is down even more in college this year due to physical defense and it continues to affect how the high school game is called.

Call the game the way the rule book reads. Players and coaches will adjust because they won't want to foul out. And guess what - offensive flow will return to the game. Scoring will go back up. And it won't be because a shot clock is forcing teams to shoot more. It will be because natural offensive talent will take over again without the fear of getting mugged every time they shoot or make a foray into the lane.

Do you think the inconsistency is because of officials doing college, high school (Boys and Girls) and the games are played and being called differently?

Thats a big part of it....but i think in all reality that there is a bunch of refs that have little confidence in their ability to call a game or keep a game in check...basketball is simple.....you run you jump you pass you shoot and you play defense......Alot of the problem is what is being taught by the Coaches ....its the "get away with what you can era, and we will worry about it later".........The worst I have ever saw was last night in Grafton, Bar none

[leroybla]

Four refs? Five?

[Flip]

Alot of the problem is what is being taught by the Coaches ....its the "get away with what you can era, and we will worry about it later".

This isn't taught. Kids know what they can get away with.

[winner-within]

Alot of the problem is what is being taught by the Coaches ....its the "get away with what you can era, and we will worry about it later".

This isn't taught. Kids know what they can get away with.

Bologna it isnt taught....its being taught real bad at the 4, 5, 6th traveling ball....we've had to address it....coach looked right at one of his players and said "take him out when he goes in" ......High School BB is simply not D1 nor anything close....its not Grand Am, its not City league......its being funded by my friggen tax dollars and it should be FAIR and safe and controlled by the Refs...period!

[lovwatchingsports]

During the class B boys district basketball tournament I watched a player while in the act of shooting get undercut by the opposing team. His head hit the floor first. Instead of stopping the game to check on the well being of the player that was curled up in a ball holding his head the referee let the game continue for at least 30 seconds. With all the concussion awareness and information now available shouldn't this game been stopped immediately? How does anyone know if that kid was having a seizure as a result of a head injury or not. The player was eventually helped and did not return to the game as a result of a concussion. As I continued to watch the game I noticed that through out the game there was a lot of incidents of this type of play. The officials if at all rarely called any fouls. At what point does it become “letting them play” to it being unsafe? Who's responsibility is it to keep these young men honest? The referees? The coaches? If I saw any of my kids pull a dirty foul over and over I would most certainly say something to them as their parent. The game is suppose to be fun and the best team with the most skill should win not the one with the biggest kid that can hit the hardest. Last time I looked this was basketball not football. This entire season of basketball and the many games I have attended I have noticed a change in how the game is being officiated. It isn't good and as a parent I am concerned about the safety of everyone playing. Does the NDHSAA wait for someone to get a severe head injury or a broken back/neck before something changes?

I question the "undercut" assertion here. To me, it looked more like a "flop gone wrong". I was there, too. Flopping has become much more epidemic in high school basketball than the injuries you write about DaBears54. Flopping is so commonplace in high school basketball now that officials likely "doubt" that an injury has taken place because someone flops on nearly every-other possession. I ask, when will HS basketball adopt anti-flopping fouls to separate serious injuries from plays for sympathy?

I agree that anti-flopping fouls need to be addressed but I don't remember ever seeing a player who was in the act of shooting "flop" as you point out here. At what point does a player gain an advantage to "flop" while shooting? Regardless of what you think happened, what I saw and heard was that young man's head hit the floor first. He didn't roll his ankle and he didn't twist a knee. His head hit the floor before any other part of his body did. Mechanics of injury need to be thought about. I agree if he rolled his ankle let the break away layup or whatever happen. But because his injury was clearly to his head wouldn't common sense prevail here and play stopped to make sure there wasn't more going on with a potential head injury. Concussions are a serious injury and should be addressed immediately.

There are some teams in the Minot area that are very good at flopping when they shoot, its called getting to the line for one more point. If the refs are going to call it why not do it?

[cntrfthrs]

During the class B boys district basketball tournament I watched a player while in the act of shooting get undercut by the opposing team. His head hit the floor first. Instead of stopping the game to check on the well being of the player that was curled up in a ball holding his head the referee let the game continue for at least 30 seconds. With all the concussion awareness and information now available shouldn't this game been stopped immediately? How does anyone know if that kid was having a seizure as a result of a head injury or not. The player was eventually helped and did not return to the game as a result of a concussion. As I continued to watch the game I noticed that through out the game there was a lot of incidents of this type of play. The officials if at all rarely called any fouls. At what point does it become “letting them play” to it being unsafe? Who's responsibility is it to keep these young men honest? The referees? The coaches? If I saw any of my kids pull a dirty foul over and over I would most certainly say something to them as their parent. The game is suppose to be fun and the best team with the most skill should win not the one with the biggest kid that can hit the hardest. Last time I looked this was basketball not football. This entire season of basketball and the many games I have attended I have noticed a change in how the game is being officiated. It isn't good and as a parent I am concerned about the safety of everyone playing. Does the NDHSAA wait for someone to get a severe head injury or a broken back/neck before something changes?

Things sure are different where you are. Out west here in region 8, my team simply breathes on the opposing team and the refs call fouls...

[MSUBeaverfever]

Moved from Region 7 discussion

Clarification---Districts are different the Regionals -- District officials are contracted by the District schools -- Regionals are contracted by the NDHSAA. Each district may have a way that they choose thier specific officials.
I must add that is odd to have a coach choose an official for a specific District Championship game. You have to be talking the coaches choose the district officials for the tourney and the manager takes it from there. So many questions that could be asked -- if that is how they do it. Do coaches do it the night before--As they are shaking hands after the semi's does the coach go over and say "John Doe -- You get to ref championship! "?? We press so we want the guy who lets them play...they press so i want the guy with a quick trigger?? Coach Z yelling at Official B -- Hey thats why I didn't choose you....coach X yelling at Official B Hey thats why I choose you. I respect you Schwab but I have a hard time believing that is how it goes down. Keep it positive!

[sportsfan25]

Moved from Region 7 discussion

Clarification---Districts are different the Regionals -- District officials are contracted by the District schools -- Regionals are contracted by the NDHSAA. Each district may have a way that they choose thier specific officials.
I must add that is odd to have a coach choose an official for a specific District Championship game. You have to be talking the coaches choose the district officials for the tourney and the manager takes it from there. So many questions that could be asked -- if that is how they do it. Do coaches do it the night before--As they are shaking hands after the semi's does the coach go over and say "John Doe -- You get to ref championship! "?? We press so we want the guy who lets them play...they press so i want the guy with a quick trigger?? Coach Z yelling at Official B -- Hey thats why I didn't choose you....coach X yelling at Official B Hey thats why I choose you. I respect you Schwab but I have a hard time believing that is how it goes down. Keep it positive!

You have it right with the fact that the district coaches choose who they would like and then the tournament manager sets up who does each specific game. As far as I know, the coaches don't have any say in who is actually assigned to what games.

Also correct on the Regional officials being setup by NDHSAA (not that it was a question). I also think the individual game assignments for the Regional games come from the tournament manager, but I'm a little less sure about that one. I do know the coaches DON'T have a say.

[The Schwab]

In the District Tournament (again at least in our district) The head coaches participating in the semi finals all get a sheet of paper on which they choose what official they would like seeing ref the championship game if their team makes it. I wouldn't say this for the 10th time if I wasn't 100 percent sure.