Fans

[70runner]

I have been attending games for years, before my own kids played. I always told myself I would never be "that" parent. Once my kids were playing it was harder than I thought it would be. Every game has a bad call, or missed call. The refs are human. This week I witnessed one that was a bad missed call. Small gym, three refs, a player jumps to pass the ball, doesn't pass it a comes down with the ball. That is travelling, no doubt. It wasn't called. The crowd briefly went nuts, but quited down pretty quick. Obvious missed call. Three refs and not a one saw it? Chances of that happening are slim, very slim but it happened. Another one a couple of weeks ago. Player passes the ball to the wing, the defender clearly hit the ball, and it went out of bounds. They called it out on the offense. The Coach questioned the call, respectfully and quietly. The ref told him on the next time out, Hey I just missed it, that one is on me. Ya know, I can respect that.

The one that I am embarrassed about for myself, last year. A larger girl goes to set a pick on another girl less than half her size. She does so with her arms crossed and elbows straight out. NO call. The smaller girl goes down, refs stop game. Smaller girl leaves the game and parents take her to the ER. Sprained shoulder and she is out for two games. When this happened I went nuts, I didn't swear or get vulger but I was loud and the ref made eye contact with me and I got the "look". I watched the video tape after the game when I got home. It wasn't as bad as it looked. As the girl went to set the pick, the smaller girl tried to get around her and the girls outstretched elbow just clipped the other girls shoulder. It kinda looked the girl went down because she was trying to avoid the pick and got off balance. Two days later the same ref was working another game, at half time I went to the refs lounge at appologized for my loud comment to the ref. And I told him what the video showed. He did thank me, and he did say that he felt so bad because he thought he had totally blew the call and a girl got hurt as a result. It still should have been a foul but it was no where near as clear as it appeared to be in live action.
So I always try to tell myself when there is a call that I don't agree with, that the ref is in a much better position than I to see what happened. And they are human. God bless them, I would not want to do that job.

[ndlionsfan]

I have been attending games for years, before my own kids played. I always told myself I would never be "that" parent. Once my kids were playing it was harder than I thought it would be. Every game has a bad call, or missed call. The refs are human. This week I witnessed one that was a bad missed call. Small gym, three refs, a player jumps to pass the ball, doesn't pass it a comes down with the ball. That is travelling, no doubt. It wasn't called. The crowd briefly went nuts, but quited down pretty quick. Obvious missed call. Three refs and not a one saw it? Chances of that happening are slim, very slim but it happened. Another one a couple of weeks ago. Player passes the ball to the wing, the defender clearly hit the ball, and it went out of bounds. They called it out on the offense. The Coach questioned the call, respectfully and quietly. The ref told him on the next time out, Hey I just missed it, that one is on me. Ya know, I can respect that.

The one that I am embarrassed about for myself, last year. A larger girl goes to set a pick on another girl less than half her size. She does so with her arms crossed and elbows straight out. NO call. The smaller girl goes down, refs stop game. Smaller girl leaves the game and parents take her to the ER. Sprained shoulder and she is out for two games. When this happened I went nuts, I didn't swear or get vulger but I was loud and the ref made eye contact with me and I got the "look". I watched the video tape after the game when I got home. It wasn't as bad as it looked. As the girl went to set the pick, the smaller girl tried to get around her and the girls outstretched elbow just clipped the other girls shoulder. It kinda looked the girl went down because she was trying to avoid the pick and got off balance. Two days later the same ref was working another game, at half time I went to the refs lounge at appologized for my loud comment to the ref. And I told him what the video showed. He did thank me, and he did say that he felt so bad because he thought he had totally blew the call and a girl got hurt as a result. It still should have been a foul but it was no where near as clear as it appeared to be in live action.
So I always try to tell myself when there is a call that I don't agree with, that the ref is in a much better position than I to see what happened. And they are human. God bless them, I would not want to do that job.

That is what most fans need to realize. A lot of times things look a lot different up in the stands than what actually happened a few feet in front of the ref. Do refs get out of position at times and miss things? Of course. But most of the time they have the better vantage point and are able to make the correct call even if it looks differently from the stands.

[EHS1998]

Referees really do try to do the best job they can and they do definately have a much better perspective than we do.

I think we as fans and parents need to hold ourselves to a high standard of conduct at all times regardless of how important we may percieve a high school game to be. I have fallen short of this goal too often and I regret it.

What I have witnessed more often than going after refs is parents bad mouthing coaches. This is so counter productive and can have very negative consequences on coach-player relationships and team morale. Coaches arent perfect either but they do have the same goal as their fans, to win games.

[winner-within]

IMO the three calls being missed/or inconsistent
-Traveling
-Over the Back (on rebound and when defender comes over the post to try and slap the ball)
-reaching in (they don't call it all game and then call it going into the lsat 2 mins when its close)

The last two of your three listed are not fouls. People that complain about things being called or not being called need to actually read a rule book. "Over the back" and "reaching in" are not fouls!

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

[Bison-Vikes #1]

It is just a game and as much as we want to see our teams do well. We, as parents, HAVE to keep things in perspective.

Thankfully, it has been a few years, but I have definately been guilty of losing perspective and have made some comments to refs that I sincerely regret. There is no place for it, regardless of the circumstance.

And going after players or coaches (your own team or otherwise) should NEVER happen.

Unfortunately, I do still see it occur from time to time but it isnt the norm.

I too have been guilty of this many times. Having coached and reffed, one needs to remember that they are tough jobs. In my instance, I would like to say I "grew up and out of it". The funny thing is that certain times, it almost becomes a "mob mentality". Everybody is fine, and then one person starts, and then another and pretty soon everyone is yelling. I try to isolate from this whenever possible. Have had many fans start yelling, only to turn around and ask me after the fact if it was the wrong call. When I have informed them that the rule changed "5 years ago or 2 years ago" it does make a difference. This happens quite often and I would like to say that I have helped a little in educating some fans. I guess my advice, and what I have tried to do as much as possible, is channel the emotions into positive things. Cheer for the positive plays and let the bad ones go. Stand up and help the cheerleaders do their jobs and a lot of the emotions of the crowd start channeling in the proper direction.
From an avid fan who is a little older and a little wiser.

[eyeinthesky]

IMO the three calls being missed/or inconsistent
-Traveling
-Over the Back (on rebound and when defender comes over the post to try and slap the ball)
-reaching in (they don't call it all game and then call it going into the lsat 2 mins when its close)

The last two of your three listed are not fouls. People that complain about things being called or not being called need to actually read a rule book. "Over the back" and "reaching in" are not fouls!

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

I wasn't aware of there being a ref license. I am aware of having to be registered with NDHSAA and NFHS. If you are a registered official with the NDHSAA Winner you need to learn the proper terminology and philosophy used. Using terms such as "over the back" and "reaching in" as fouls only promote a misunderstanding and these terms are nowhere in any rule book at any level.

Basketball is a contact sport. It is not a collision sport...aka football. If you are a NDHSAA official I would suggest reading Rule 4-27.

[winner-within]

IMO the three calls being missed/or inconsistent
-Traveling
-Over the Back (on rebound and when defender comes over the post to try and slap the ball)
-reaching in (they don't call it all game and then call it going into the lsat 2 mins when its close)

The last two of your three listed are not fouls. People that complain about things being called or not being called need to actually read a rule book. "Over the back" and "reaching in" are not fouls!

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

I wasn't aware of there being a ref license. I am award of having to be registered with NDHSAA and NFHS. If you are a registered official with the NDHSAA Winner you need to learn the proper terminology and philosophy used. Using terms such as "over the back" and "reaching in" as fouls only promote a misunderstanding and these terms are nowhere in any rule book at any level.

Basketball is a contact sport. It is not a collision sport...aka football. If you are a NDHSAA official I would suggest reading Rule 4-27.

You need to learn how to not worry about me.....I pay to watch the game I can call it what I want to...... and when I reffed?? I called it how I saw it whether it was over the back or reaching in.....There are obnoxious fans but the majority of fans know the game ....alot of times better than the Officials

[The Schwab]

IMO the three calls being missed/or inconsistent
-Traveling
-Over the Back (on rebound and when defender comes over the post to try and slap the ball)
-reaching in (they don't call it all game and then call it going into the lsat 2 mins when its close)

The last two of your three listed are not fouls. People that complain about things being called or not being called need to actually read a rule book. "Over the back" and "reaching in" are not fouls!

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

I wasn't aware of there being a ref license. I am award of having to be registered with NDHSAA and NFHS. If you are a registered official with the NDHSAA Winner you need to learn the proper terminology and philosophy used. Using terms such as "over the back" and "reaching in" as fouls only promote a misunderstanding and these terms are nowhere in any rule book at any level.

Basketball is a contact sport. It is not a collision sport...aka football. If you are a NDHSAA official I would suggest reading Rule 4-27.

You need to learn how to not worry about me.....I pay to watch the game I can call it what I want to...... and when I reffed?? I called it how I saw it whether it was over the back or reaching in.....There are obnoxious fans but the majority of fans know the game ....alot of times better than the Officials

False, most basketball fans think they know the game.

[wildcatfan]

....alot of times better than the Officials


Winner - you're funny!!

[EHS1998]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

[newkidontheblock]

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

After reading that comment I sure am glad that you said you no longer ref in a later post. I would hate to watch a game you reffed.

Finesse is only one part of the game. Physicality and athleticism are also important parts of the game. "Basketball is a game with ten athletes in a confined space- there will be contact."

I agree that I see a lot of calls I disagree with post-play and I'm really tired of seeing bigger and more athletic posts get punished for being better. One of the most mismanaged calls is verticality. The offensive player comes into the lane out of control- the bigger post player jumps straight up and blocks the shot while the offensive player jumps forward- gaining five feet + as he leap into the vertically jumping defender... Bam, whistle and foul on the defense even though the offense initiated all contact. Terrible. Let athletes be athletes

[eyeinthesky]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

[winner-within]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

to clarity to what I said....would be this.....and size isn't the issue necessarily

lets say you have 2 guys both 6'4" 210 to 220 ones athletic and knows the 4 or 5 spot well and the other is just big. The athletic guy finds his spot where he likes to get his pass at so then he can drop step or do his thing.
but the other guy thinks he should be able to belly up and try push him out to the wing...or wait for the pass to come and then he body's up and trys to slap at the ball

thats not basketball....but its his only defense because he knows hes beat when his man gets the ball
alot of players are not playing....they are thinking, and actually thinking to much....they are even being told by their coach to compensate....this leads to ugly basketball JMO

[winner-within]

Well I have a Ref license and those are the calls I make....Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

After reading that comment I sure am glad that you said you no longer ref in a later post. I would hate to watch a game you reffed.

Finesse is only one part of the game. Physicality and athleticism are also important parts of the game. "Basketball is a game with ten athletes in a confined space- there will be contact."

I agree that I see a lot of calls I disagree with post-play and I'm really tired of seeing bigger and more athletic posts get punished for being better. One of the most mismanaged calls is verticality. The offensive player comes into the lane out of control- the bigger post player jumps straight up and blocks the shot while the offensive player jumps forward- gaining five feet + as he leap into the vertically jumping defender... Bam, whistle and foul on the defense even though the offense initiated all contact. Terrible. Let athletes be athletes

I was Praised on my reffing by fans and parents, players and Coaches all the time...but thank you!

[winner-within]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

[EHS1998]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

I used the wrong terminology, apologies. What I meant (and I think it was pretty clear, regrdless of terminology) was our post often gets pushed in the back by a player going for a rebound and it is generally not called. However, when you go to the other end, any slight contact made by our post on a player boxing out generally will be called as a foul, which I am guessing technically it is, I just think it should be called consistently, regardless of the size of the player. Our post is 6'4, 235 lbs, we dont often play against kids the same size in D5/R3.

Winner - Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense.

[EHS1998]

As a disclaimer, I am absolutely a homer and could definately be biased in my view.

[ndlionsfan]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

That is not an official violation signal. Check the rule books. I cringe when I see refs make that gesture because it really shows their lack of knowledge of the game and rules.

[newkidontheblock]

I agree that your clarification sounded better than the original Winner. The original made it sound more like you wanted to ref a game of horse than a game of basketball

[winner-within]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

That is not an official violation signal. Check the rule books. I cringe when I see refs make that gesture because it really shows their lack of knowledge of the game and rules.

well than I must be old school...because to have a gesture make be cringe would be frustrating....
bottom line is nobody cares how the rule book of officials is worded .... folks show up to a game because they love the sport and wanna see little Johnny play (and thats all that matters) they also trust that the refs that their AD hired are capable...it also says that there is no tobacco the day of, and or alcohol...

[The Schwab]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

That is not an official violation signal. Check the rule books. I cringe when I see refs make that gesture because it really shows their lack of knowledge of the game and rules.

well than I must be old school...because to have a gesture make be cringe would be frustrating....
bottom line is nobody cares how the rule book of officials is worded .... folks show up to a game because they love the sport and wanna see little Johnny play (and thats all that matters) they also trust that the refs that their AD hired are capable...it also says that there is no tobacco the day of, and or alcohol...

I care how it's worded

[gominers]

I think this conversation shows that even fans that consider themselves pretty well educated may not know the rules as well as they believe. I think everyone that gets into the game has an outburst once in a while. Some handle it better then others. I think the interpretation of some rules has changed over the past 10-15 years. Play is more physical now than in previous decades. Some think that is good, some don't. I wonder if the difference in physicality between Class A and B is as large as it used to be. That was one of the biggest adjustments Beulah had to make when we went Class A.

[MNTwinsFan]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

That is not an official violation signal. Check the rule books. I cringe when I see refs make that gesture because it really shows their lack of knowledge of the game and rules.

well than I must be old school...because to have a gesture make be cringe would be frustrating....
bottom line is nobody cares how the rule book of officials is worded .... folks show up to a game because they love the sport and wanna see little Johnny play (and thats all that matters) they also trust that the refs that their AD hired are capable...it also says that there is no tobacco the day of, and or alcohol... :lol:

I believe the AD's contract an association (RRVOA, WOA, VCAOA, etc) rather than individuals.

[eyeinthesky]

Basketball is a game of finesse, not full contact and when it turns into big guys that cant play but can push than they should be on the bench with 5 fouls

Winner - Just looking for clarity on your comment so I dont take it out of context. What about big guys that can play? I fear that your feeling (bold) is shared by some refs who want to even up the playing field for the "smaller" guys and leads to games not being called the same on offensive/defensive ends. Do you not see basketball as a game for big guys too? Guys come over our posts back all the time and it is rairly called but he is most often one of the bigger guys on the floor.

If I can do anything here today let me try and help those of you that don't know the rule or perhaps the proper terminology. There is NO such foul as over the back. It would have to be a push, hold or illegal use of hands (aka hit or hack). EHS I trust that you are smart enough to understand this

so when the ref (after the whistle) makes the 2 goose heads gesture with his hands over his head....hes just stretching his shoulders?? or is he saying "THE PLAYER WENT OVER THE OTHER PLAYERS BACK"??...

That is not an official violation signal. Check the rule books. I cringe when I see refs make that gesture because it really shows their lack of knowledge of the game and rules.

well than I must be old school...because to have a gesture make be cringe would be frustrating....
bottom line is nobody cares how the rule book of officials is worded .... folks show up to a game because they love the sport and wanna see little Johnny play (and thats all that matters) they also trust that the refs that their AD hired are capable...it also says that there is no tobacco the day of, and or alcohol... :lol:

I believe the AD's contract an association (RRVOA, WOA, VCAOA, etc) rather than individuals.

Some schools work with associations. Some AD's send out contracts to individual officials. Some do a mixture of both.

[bison football73]

Coming from a student's point of view, I, if I don't agree with a call I will say something, but I will not make any comment about the ref such as calling him bald or fat and if I hear someone else in the student section say something like that I will tell them to not do it. I also hate when people start calling for fouls when they simply are not fouls. Yes I am biased but I know when a foul is a foul but if it is a blatant foul I don't say anything. Another pet peeve of mine is complaining for calls when your team is up by 20 with a minute left.