Reffing around the state

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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby winner-within » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:33 pm

border fan wrote:when officals "let them play", they are opening themselves up to critisism. They need to follow the book not their hearts


yes......tikky takky ??? Criticism.....rough and tumble?? Criticism....somewhere in Between?? ND High School Basketball.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby cubsfan » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:36 pm

The one thing that I hate from fans is when they start yelling at the refs because the team they support are not playing well. Just because a team is getting called for more fouls than your team it doesn't mean that the refs are out to get you. I have seen it way more this year than in years past.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:39 am

cubsfan wrote:The one thing that I hate from fans is when they start yelling at the refs because the team they support are not playing well. Just because a team is getting called for more fouls than your team it doesn't mean that the refs are out to get you. I have seen it way more this year than in years past.


100% correct. Why is it perceived that the fouls should be about equal?
With that said, some of the problems are the rules are ever changing. Some refs have struggled with rule changes, so would certainly expect the fans to do the same. A couple of examples that I have witnessed this year: 1. Fumbled pass - double dribble being called. 2. Diving, getting possession while sliding- travels being called. 3. Basketball touching top of backboard - out of bounds called. Have witnessed all of these and these rules have been in place for a while now. Unless they have changed this year, these are very fundamental calls which I have seen made incorrectly this year. Everyone makes a mistake, but these are pretty basic.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby sportsfan25 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:22 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
cubsfan wrote:The one thing that I hate from fans is when they start yelling at the refs because the team they support are not playing well. Just because a team is getting called for more fouls than your team it doesn't mean that the refs are out to get you. I have seen it way more this year than in years past.


100% correct. Why is it perceived that the fouls should be about equal?
With that said, some of the problems are the rules are ever changing. Some refs have struggled with rule changes, so would certainly expect the fans to do the same. A couple of examples that I have witnessed this year: 1. Fumbled pass - double dribble being called. 2. Diving, getting possession while sliding- travels being called. 3. Basketball touching top of backboard - out of bounds called. Have witnessed all of these and these rules have been in place for a while now. Unless they have changed this year, these are very fundamental calls which I have seen made incorrectly this year. Everyone makes a mistake, but these are pretty basic.


The slide is the one that kills me. The other one that I see called incorrectly a lot is the kicked ball. It is only a kicking the ball if the player "is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot." Rule 4-29. If a ball is thrown and it goes off the other teams leg but the guy didn't kick at it, it's not a kicked ball, it's live!

The only other thing that really gets to me, in general, is when a ref makes a call he can't see. I was at a girls' game last night (that was being reffed by guys I've seen do boys' games many times, in case people have an issue with this being a boys' thread) and the ref made a call on a slap where the players had their back to the official. The players were both facing the stands and the official was behind them around half-court. I'm sure it "looked like a foul" because the defense swung her arm pretty hard, but she slapped the ball and nothing else. I know they have to minimize rough play and take control of situation so it doesn't escalate, but don't call what you can't see.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby bb dad » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:24 pm

First off let me start off by saying I give the refs all the respect they deserve, its a thankless job that just about any way you call it your going to stuff some one off. That said I see different tendencies coming from refs in different districts. District 2 with its larger schools (ie. CC, Kindred) I think the refs tend to let the big guys down low play more but call a much tighter game up top. I see it reversed in District 1. Allot more hand checking but more ticky tack down low. Just my opinion.
What does frustrate me more is that I think the quality of officiating actually drops when they go to three man crews. With two refs they tend help each other out because one guy cannot be in the correct spot at all times. But when we get to three official crews I feel they try and watch "their"area and two many calls get missed. Also because each ref calls the game slightly different you end up with what is being allowed on one end of the court now being called on the other end because each ref is watching his area. Too many time s I think they are so stuck in "their" area that more calls get missed and the games tend to get out of hand. Also just my opinion.
That said overall they do a great job more often than not. I f you havent you should try it sometime. Its east to make all the calls from the stands :roll:
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby KG4MVP » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:44 pm

sportsfan25 wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
cubsfan wrote:The one thing that I hate from fans is when they start yelling at the refs because the team they support are not playing well. Just because a team is getting called for more fouls than your team it doesn't mean that the refs are out to get you. I have seen it way more this year than in years past.


100% correct. Why is it perceived that the fouls should be about equal?
With that said, some of the problems are the rules are ever changing. Some refs have struggled with rule changes, so would certainly expect the fans to do the same. A couple of examples that I have witnessed this year: 1. Fumbled pass - double dribble being called. 2. Diving, getting possession while sliding- travels being called. 3. Basketball touching top of backboard - out of bounds called. Have witnessed all of these and these rules have been in place for a while now. Unless they have changed this year, these are very fundamental calls which I have seen made incorrectly this year. Everyone makes a mistake, but these are pretty basic.


The slide is the one that kills me. The other one that I see called incorrectly a lot is the kicked ball. It is only a kicking the ball if the player "is intentionally striking it with any part of the leg or foot." Rule 4-29. If a ball is thrown and it goes off the other teams leg but the guy didn't kick at it, it's not a kicked ball, it's live!

The only other thing that really gets to me, in general, is when a ref makes a call he can't see. I was at a girls' game last night (that was being reffed by guys I've seen do boys' games many times, in case people have an issue with this being a boys' thread) and the ref made a call on a slap where the players had their back to the official. The players were both facing the stands and the official was behind them around half-court. I'm sure it "looked like a foul" because the defense swung her arm pretty hard, but she slapped the ball and nothing else. I know they have to minimize rough play and take control of situation so it doesn't escalate, but don't call what you can't see.

Wow thats ironic! Just seen the same call was made just last week at a boys game. A player stripped the ball away on defense with both players back to the offical and the official called a foul...there was no way he could possibly see the play!! Why call the foul?? Glad Im not the only one..
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Hinsa » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:05 pm

Physical play to me is the single most important reason for the decline in scoring in the past several decades. Riding a guy driving to the basket decreases the chances of making the shot. Wrestling with a post player for position on the block makes it extremely hard for a post player to score anymore. Fighting through a pick is codespeak for shove the guy setting the screen out of the way. Held balls include held hands, arms, and bodies. (My favorite is when a guy bear hugs someone from behind and gets a held ball called. It is not physically possible to reach around a guy from behind and secure a grip on the ball without contacting the guy in some illegal manner) Box out has become football line play complete with swim and rip moves.

All of these things make it much more difficult to score.

This is not the referee's fault. They call what they are told to call by the powers that be. I place the blame for physical play squarely on the powers that be at all levels of basketball.

If referees are told to call a foul a foul, sure, you'd have guys fouling out at first. But they would adjust, and soon the physical play would lessen, the court would open up, and scoring would increase naturally, without a bunch of contrived rules being put in place to increase scoring.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby classB4ever » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:33 pm

Here's another question. Would you prefer a ref to make a call instantly with a chance of maybe making a hasty call or take a few seconds to run it through their mind and then make the call. Have mixed feelings. Use to think it was ok that they replayed it in their head. Recently have witnessed a number of times that they wouldn't make the call until they were nearly in front of the scorer's table and it seemed the entire gym was hanging, waiting on the call.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Hinsa » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:54 pm

Any time an official hesitates before making the call, it really makes them look unsure of themselves. Make the call boldly and live with the consequences. If you don't, you open yourself up to second guessing the rest of the game.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby DCFan » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:26 pm

I want consistent calls.I don't care if it is poor or good, just be consistent. There is nothing worse than a one sided called game when the same thing is happening on both sides of the ball.
Another thing I have seen this year is kids getting beat up in the paint. I am all for the no harm no foul rule but when someone gets hammered call the foul. This is not football without pads. The refs need to control rough play. Districts and Regionals are going to be fun as there is alot of parity this year.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Indy5 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:18 am

Hinsa wrote: Box out has become football line play complete with swim and rip moves.


Hahaha. This line funny to me because even though it seems like an exaggeration, I've seen many swims and rips lately.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby mags » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:39 pm

The sport is just evolving and changing, thats why you see the more physical game. I dont feel like its really a bad thing, just expect some lower scores. Same as how you rarely see the bank shot or the 17 footer anymore, game is just changing.

In response to refs calling the steals fouls when they really dont have an angle: Look if you ref a game, you certainly wont have a great angle all night. One thing you will never ever see is if the wrap around steal was clean or not, so sometimes its just best to blow the foul. Reaching for pokes and steals is a little cheap anyways.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby ClassBEast » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:59 pm

mags wrote: Reaching for pokes and steals is a little cheap anyways.


I don't get this. How do you steal/poke a ball if you don't reach for it? That's why there is no such thing as a "reaching in" foul. You can reach all you want, you just can't make contact with their body while doing it.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Region5fan » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:29 pm

This is a great site. Just my $.02 on refereeing. I can tell you that around the Bismarck-Mandan area we have some excellent officials. Do they miss calls.....of course they do, but they really do a great job. It is amazing how fans have the blinders on and only see it "our" way. There is nothing wrong with rooting for our team,school,city.etc... but I think we as fans have gotten worse every year.

My only complaint about officiating is that the better officials work Class A regions always. I'd love to have Scott McPherson, Paul Jundt (haven't seen him at all this year), Chad Bjornson, Darin Johnson or Todd Tschozic (sp?) working the region 5 tournament but they work the Class A every year. Those guys all work a bunch of college games and as a fan I now get annoyed when the crowd gets on them because it shows how one-sided and ignorant we can be. I used to be the typical fan that would complain way too much, but then I sat with a local college coach (who has to rate referees after his games) at the Mandan Holiday tournament 2 years ago and he pointed out how wrong I was and explained some of the calls to me (made and "passed on" by the officials) and it gave me a little better understanding because I didn't realize all the intracies of the game. Good luck to everyone as tourny time is gearing up! Can't wait !!
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Have been noticing a non-call lately and was wondering if it has been noticed by anybody else.

Boxing out of airborne perimeter shooters and the verticality rule. Although I know that players will "flop" to get a call, have noticed that a number of perimeter defenders are moving under or "boxing out" while a shooter is in the air. Very few perimeter shooters are "floating" forward and 99% of the time, the defender is flying at them. Whether a defender flies at them and hits them, or turns around and slides under them while the shooter is in the air is no different. It has been brought up in another thread about the semi circle in the lane. In that instance, an offensive player is moving forward and initiating the contact. The gripe is about injuries and landing on a defender. In this instance, the defender is initiating the contact and also taking the vertical area away from an airborne shooter to land.

IMO, this is a dangerous situation and should be a very easy call to make. The players are generally in the open so should be very easy to see. Also, by calling it a few times, it should be easy for a defender to correct from doing again. Any opinions?
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby winner-within » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:26 pm

I would agree...I don't like that style of play, what I have noticed is a Seasoned coach has his players taking advantage of the more liberal calling, hoping for the benefit of the doubt.

It is very important in My book to play the game the way your supposed to....and think of it like this

That person lying there with a concussion or blown acl because he/she was taken out... could be you next time. Play safe! and for crying out loud if your an official make sure you have a handle on the game.

There is nothing better than watching good refs stay in control of a wicked match up!
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby Flip » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:36 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Have been noticing a non-call lately and was wondering if it has been noticed by anybody else.

Boxing out of airborne perimeter shooters and the verticality rule. Although I know that players will "flop" to get a call, have noticed that a number of perimeter defenders are moving under or "boxing out" while a shooter is in the air. Very few perimeter shooters are "floating" forward and 99% of the time, the defender is flying at them. Whether a defender flies at them and hits them, or turns around and slides under them while the shooter is in the air is no different. It has been brought up in another thread about the semi circle in the lane. In that instance, an offensive player is moving forward and initiating the contact. The gripe is about injuries and landing on a defender. In this instance, the defender is initiating the contact and also taking the vertical area away from an airborne shooter to land.

IMO, this is a dangerous situation and should be a very easy call to make. The players are generally in the open so should be very easy to see. Also, by calling it a few times, it should be easy for a defender to correct from doing again. Any opinions?

Most officials will watch the ball and do not see the box out. This is the biggest reason this isn't called.
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Re: Reffing around the state

Postby yadot » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:19 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:Have been noticing a non-call lately and was wondering if it has been noticed by anybody else.

Boxing out of airborne perimeter shooters and the verticality rule. Although I know that players will "flop" to get a call, have noticed that a number of perimeter defenders are moving under or "boxing out" while a shooter is in the air. Very few perimeter shooters are "floating" forward and 99% of the time, the defender is flying at them. Whether a defender flies at them and hits them, or turns around and slides under them while the shooter is in the air is no different. It has been brought up in another thread about the semi circle in the lane. In that instance, an offensive player is moving forward and initiating the contact. The gripe is about injuries and landing on a defender. In this instance, the defender is initiating the contact and also taking the vertical area away from an airborne shooter to land.

IMO, this is a dangerous situation and should be a very easy call to make. The players are generally in the open so should be very easy to see. Also, by calling it a few times, it should be easy for a defender to correct from doing again. Any opinions?
Noticed this a lot at the district I was at on Saturday. One team in particular did this a lot (slid underneath jumpshooters to box out) very dangerous and was repeated so many times it looked like it was taught. I agree that refs are probably following the ball just like the fans but it does need to be made aware of.
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