Shawn wrote:But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.
Don't you love how "hypothetical" people are when it comes to basketball? It's like nobody needs to play any games because they are already "the best." I just laugh every time somebody stakes claim on who deserves to be the winner without having to prove it.
PlayHard-KHCO wrote:neeeevermind. Lamoure-LM just made the argument here completely invalid. The ridiculous attempt to say a team 'deserves' to be somewhere holds no water. Changing an entire tournament makeup wont change the fact that any team can win on any day -if they score more points, they win.<----- those last 7words- no ifs or buts , thats the only certainty in tournament play.
Shawn wrote:But North Star, Four Winds, Beulah, and Trinity should be the four teams in the state semifinals and only two will make the tournament.
Don't you love how "hypothetical" people are when it comes to basketball? It's like nobody needs to play any games because they are already "the best." I just laugh every time somebody stakes claim on who deserves to be the winner without having to prove it.
NDplayin wrote:As for the rest of it, welcome to sports. When you don't show up for a game and lay an egg you have yourself to blame. That is very different than being excluded from even the opportunity by the system.
NDplayin wrote:This has nothing to do with a Cinderella situation. I love Cinderella's in sports. The point is, when Cinderella wins- the ugly step sister has no one to blame but herself.
When a top 4 team beats a a top 4 team that isn't a Cinderella. And when two top 4s can exclude each other from being a top 8- that's fault of the system- not the team.
NDplayin wrote:I never EVER said the "top tier" teams are the only ones that deserve to make state. Never!
I've also repeatedly said that I love when top tier teams get beat by Cinderellas- that's one of the great things about sports.
I've never said I only want the top tier teams in the tournament.
NDplayin wrote:Again- when a "non top tier" team upsets a "top tier" team that's called a Cinderella and I love it.
When two "top tier" teams are preventing each other from the top tier tournament while two "not top tier" teams are playing for the right to go to the top tier tournament- that's a flaw of the system
NDplayin wrote: If one of the three remaining teams gets beat I'll call it a Cinderella and consider it one of the great things about sports. Either way I can tell you this, I still wish we had a system that would have made it possible to have all 5 of those teams in the tournament, and if one of them would have lost to a Cinderella I would have considered it their fault- not the systems
NDplayin wrote:None of the teams on that list are a "Slouch" and on the right night anything can happen.
NDplayin wrote:None of the teams on that list are a "Slouch" and on the right night anything can happen.What I have said is that I'd prefer a system where there's the OPPORTUNITY for all top tier teams to go and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.
NDplayin wrote:That doesn't mean that one of them can't get upset by a Cinderella, it just means that there is the opportunity that they could continue to the top level of the tourney before they start eliminating each other. What they do with that opportunity (win or lose) is up to them
NDplayin wrote:Here's something I'm still try to get you to understand about me and this plan. I'm not supporting this plan because I want all the teams who've proven themselves the most in the regular season to automatically go and that wouldn't happen in this plan. I'm not supporting this system because I don't like upsets; I love upsets in fact and they would still happen in this plan. What I want is for upsets to be the reason those top tier teams don't go rather than the fault of the system.
PlayHard-KHCO wrote:I think this whole discussion is indicative of the downward spiral in all levels of athletics- the 'gimme a participation ribbon and a hug' movement. It's a tournament- everyone has the opportunity to win and also the same opportunity to lose. The 'second best team' in the state is the one the is getting the second place trophy at the state tourney- Ifs and butts don't mean a thing. if there is a team that wanted it- then they should have kept winning to get there- or worked harder plain and simple. Lets just get rid of all the tournaments- hand the kids all a participation ribbon and tell them they are all number one.
Its sports- there are winners and there are losers- both learn a life lesson.
NDplayin wrote:Let's get real. Do you think there wouldn't be Mountains and Seas in the 4 region idea? In reality, the Mountains get taller and the Seas get rougher.
First, it's harder to qualify for the 4 regions than 8 and the regional tournament field get WAY tougher. No more 1 seeds blowing away 4 seeds that may have only won 10% of their games all season. No more first round cake walks. Start taking two teams from 4 combined districts to a regional tournament and there will be no easy game, no cake walk, every team will be a good team.
There's no intention of making anything easier in this idea... no hint of "giving everybody a medal."
ndlionsfan wrote:NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.
PlayHard-KHCO wrote:ndlionsfan wrote:NDPlayin, if our system is truly broken and a "joke" please list all of the teams in the past 10 years that were the "second best" in state that did not make the state tournament because the best team in state was also in their region.
THAT- you ignored that question TWICE- your example you started this thread with holds zero water- the so called '4 best teams' you used-after today your example for why this should be done- its gone. And you havent answered that question to validate your statement.
NDplayin wrote:I just looked and looked for the long thread on here that was called "Best Team not to Qualify for State," and either it has disappeared, been deleted, or I'm blind. I know it was just recently there because there was a guy very adamant that Bowman was one of the best 3 teams in the state the year that Dickinson Trinity beat MPCG in the championship. I wish I could have found it to link for you because it would have answered your question well. Some of the teams listed in that thread had been beaten by a Cinderella, but much more common were the teams who lost to an eventual state champion by a narrow margin (often more narrow than their games at state), and whose only losses had been to that same state champion or other top tier teams who made it.
Indy5 wrote:I truly believe half the people haven't read this whole thread or are in about the 20% percentile of their reading comprehension.
Obviously everyone has a chance to win state at the start of districts. Just shut up about it. I can't imagine how sick of seeing that comment NDplayin is, considering this is his fight and not mine.
Think about it this way. If you think this new system is awful, then that must also mean you think NCAA Tourney teams should be randomly assigned instead of seeded. EXACT SAME CONCEPT. Everyone still has a chance to win it all if they win all their games (said in an incredibly mocking voice). Sure they do, but why not have the best teams more spaced out. Common sense.
Indy5 wrote:Think about it this way. If you think this new system is awful, then that must also mean you think NCAA Tourney teams should be randomly assigned instead of seeded. EXACT SAME CONCEPT. Everyone still has a chance to win it all if they win all their games (said in an incredibly mocking voice). Sure they do, but why not have the best teams more spaced out. Common sense.
PlayHard-KHCO wrote:I think this whole discussion is indicative of the downward spiral in all levels of athletics- the 'gimme a participation ribbon and a hug' movement. It's a tournament- everyone has the opportunity to win and also the same opportunity to lose. The 'second best team' in the state is the one the is getting the second place trophy at the state tourney- Ifs and butts don't mean a thing. if there is a team that wanted it- then they should have kept winning to get there- or worked harder plain and simple. Lets just get rid of all the tournaments- hand the kids all a participation ribbon and tell them they are all number one.
Its sports- there are winners and there are losers- both learn a life lesson.
Bisonguy06 wrote:Alright.. Playin doesn't have my vote yet, but I understand his frustration with these arguments.
His plan does not prevent representation from all corners of the state.
His plan does not prevent small schools from making the state tournament.
NorthDakota11 wrote:i agree Playin's system doesn't prevent any of those things but I would argue that a team like Trenton may not even be in the tournament this weekend in a four region set up. Then again after their performance last night they may have knocked either Trinity or Beulah off to make the tourney. I liked the point that was made about geography earlier and the 4 region format could limit that a bit. With any system their will be issues but I think the current system allows for a better sample of what every part of the state offers. Lamoure plays a type of basketball Trinity obviously struggled with yesterday.
Indy5 wrote:NorthDakota11 wrote:i agree Playin's system doesn't prevent any of those things but I would argue that a team like Trenton may not even be in the tournament this weekend in a four region set up. Then again after their performance last night they may have knocked either Trinity or Beulah off to make the tourney. I liked the point that was made about geography earlier and the 4 region format could limit that a bit. With any system their will be issues but I think the current system allows for a better sample of what every part of the state offers. Lamoure plays a type of basketball Trinity obviously struggled with yesterday.
I just need to throw in a couple things.
Trenton would not have beat Trinity or Beulah playing like they did yesterday. They played pretty well, but they also played the worst team in the tournament, maybe 2nd worst, Cavalier and Shiloh are close in my opinion.
It wasn't Lamoure's style of ball that cause Trinity problems it was Lamoure having a super hot start, and 2 of Trinity's 3 good players were in foul trouble the whole time. Seriously, all those guards for Trinity are garbage. Volk did his best to win a state tournament game all on his own.
70runner wrote:Also, just because a team didn't play well in a game against (any team) on any given night doesn't mean that they would have played that way against another team on that same night. There is so much that goes into the emotion of the game, it would probably take a team of psychologists to figure out why one team affects the play of another team the way they do. I could say that had Four Winds shot the 3 pointers like they did against Trenton, they would have beaten Milnor by a bunch. And then I could say that therefore, Trenton would have beat Milnor had they beat Four-Winds the night before. But the fact is they didn't, the game was played. And every team earned there spot in the end. That is a fact for the whole system, from the beginning of the District Tournaments to the Final Game Saturday night. The system is not broken, not even close. Maybe there are some flaws, but there will be flaws in every system with the flaws changing every year.
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