3 class system

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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:14 pm

Does Shiloh want to play them?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sorenson23 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:53 pm

I just think teams in D10 are sick of seeing them in the region championship game or the state tournament year after year. But I think it should be up to them if they want to schedule Shiloh. For girls I know Washburn & Underwood schedule them almost every year. Its a region game not a district game. It should be their decision. These teams in D10 are smaller cause there not located in a big city like Bismarck. One other thing Shiloh gets new kids every year. Vs these smaller schools in D10 they don't. You got to realize kids that go to Century, BHS, Legacy, or St. Mary's that play ball. If they feel like their not getting the playing time they deserve they transfer to Shiloh. They may not be eligible to play for them right way. But to me that still an advantage that's what I think these teams in D10 look at as well.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sniper » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:59 pm

Flip wrote:Does Shiloh want to play them?


If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:33 pm

Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sniper » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:42 am

Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:23 am

Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sniper » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:05 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby spins » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:13 pm

Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.



Does anyone have any opinions on why Williston is not a great basketball program? Its the only private in the state that doesn't have a great basketball program.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:00 pm

spins wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.



Does anyone have any opinions on why Williston is not a great basketball program? Its the only private in the state that doesn't have a great basketball program.


They had a great program back in the early 2000s but lately have been middle of the road in R8; cost of attending the school...I think they are the most expensive private school in ND.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:03 pm

Sniper wrote:I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.

What plan would you prefer?
2 Class or 3 Class based on enrollments, but you allowed teams to opt up.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sniper » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:41 pm

Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.

What plan would you prefer?
2 Class or 3 Class based on enrollments, but you allowed teams to opt up.


I would prefer 3 class. Middle class consisting of the current class "B" privates and the other "big Bs". I would rather see the class "C" have more teams than the class "B" but mostly I just want the privates in the middle class (besides the two current class "A" ones).
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Sniper » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:51 pm

spins wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.



Does anyone have any opinions on why Williston is not a great basketball program? Its the only private in the state that doesn't have a great basketball program.


Out of the private schools they are located in the smallest town. This results in them having less resources and opportunities to develop better players. A lot more in town competition from a young age in Bismarck, Fargo, Minot than in Williston. It would probably help Trinity Christian if Williston High School had a great basketball program, because it could result in the occasional transferring of players who would make good class B players but would not see much playing time on good class A teams.
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Re: 3 class system

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point being 150 would make sense in ND if MN is 201 with all their towns


side note: Minneapolis north is moving up to 2A they just won State again at 1A all games by 30 plus
only 2 losses this season were one to a 3A team and 1 to a 4A team..............

I think it's better than the old system.
Last edited by Weakuya on Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:42 pm

An outside the box idea to assist a 3 class system would be to allow JV teams from existing Class A schools to play in the middle class. Could gain another 8+ teams and remove some borderline schools on the bottom side of middle class enrollment. This would also help with participation in the larger towns, create easier scheduling and ease travel issues. Heimer brought this up a while back and think it has some merit.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby NDPREP » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:42 pm

classB4ever wrote:An outside the box idea to assist a 3 class system would be to allow JV teams from existing Class A schools to play in the middle class. Could gain another 8+ teams and remove some borderline schools on the bottom side of middle class enrollment. This would also help with participation in the larger towns, create easier scheduling and ease travel issues. Heimer brought this up a while back and think it has some merit.


This is kind of what Legion baseball is doing and it is honestly not fun to watch that middle class at all. Makes the middle class irrelevant from a fan perspective, just my opinion though. Leave the Class A schools in Class A.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:26 am

NDPREP wrote:
classB4ever wrote:An outside the box idea to assist a 3 class system would be to allow JV teams from existing Class A schools to play in the middle class. Could gain another 8+ teams and remove some borderline schools on the bottom side of middle class enrollment. This would also help with participation in the larger towns, create easier scheduling and ease travel issues. Heimer brought this up a while back and think it has some merit.


This is kind of what Legion baseball is doing and it is honestly not fun to watch that middle class at all. Makes the middle class irrelevant from a fan perspective, just my opinion though. Leave the Class A schools in Class A.


Thanks for the reply. May I ask what are the negatives? Have been around legion baseball for many years, played against the A teams back in the day. Can't think of anything negative playing against and winning/losing against them. Just looking for input.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:53 am

classB4ever wrote:An outside the box idea to assist a 3 class system would be to allow JV teams from existing Class A schools to play in the middle class. Could gain another 8+ teams and remove some borderline schools on the bottom side of middle class enrollment. This would also help with participation in the larger towns, create easier scheduling and ease travel issues. Heimer brought this up a while back and think it has some merit.


There are many different reasons why this would never work:

1. JV rosters are not static. A talented younger player may play a couple of quarters of JV then come off the bench in the varsity game. Players may get called up or down due to injury, improvement etc.

2. No coach at an existing Class A school is going to want this for their program. They are going to want V/JV practicing together and playing on the same nights and locations.

3. This would create a logistical nightmare for an existing Class A school with coaches, teams, buses, gyms etc.

I'm all for thinking outside the box, but having JV teams play a varsity schedule in another division is a non-starter.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby Flip » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:15 pm

Back when there were 2 classes of legion the Mandan A's, Bismarck Scarlets, Fargo Bombers, etc. were always in the mix for state births. I didn't think it seemed fair.

It doesn't make much difference. There is no chance of this ever happening.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:32 pm

Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.


Forcing all privates up a class in basketball is simply not going to happen in ND. A three class system done right would have four of the six current Class B programs already in the middle class while giving the two smaller schools (Our Redeemer's and Trinity Christian) the ability to opt up. If they chose not to there isn't going to be new rules put in place over two schools.

I don't get the complaining about private schools while everyone seems to ignore the fact that the big public Class B schools are what is causing the most imbalance in the current system.

The current top two schools in the Class B poll both have multiple players on their roster that are children of former Class B standouts. The parents were not raised in these communities but have chosen Class B school districts close to the large population centers for the small school experience. This situation is really prevalent in the eastern part of the state and is creating a real competitive imbalance. I think everyone realizes it probably just a matter of time until Nedrose and/or South Prairie become basketball powerhouses due to the same factors.

There is also an imbalance created by open enrollment. Northern Cass sends buses each day outside of its own district boundaries which in turn picks off a few kids from neighboring school districts to pad the enrollment. It's not just the private schools that operate without borders.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:38 pm

B Historian wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.


Forcing all privates up a class in basketball is simply not going to happen in ND. A three class system done right would have four of the six current Class B programs already in the middle class while giving the two smaller schools (Our Redeemer's and Trinity Christian) the ability to opt up. If they chose not to there isn't going to be new rules put in place over two schools.

I don't get the complaining about private schools while everyone seems to ignore the fact that the big public Class B schools are what is causing the most imbalance in the current system.

The current top two schools in the Class B poll both have multiple players on their roster that are children of former Class B standouts. The parents were not raised in these communities but have chosen Class B school districts close to the large population centers for the small school experience. This situation is really prevalent in the eastern part of the state and is creating a real competitive imbalance. I think everyone realizes it probably just a matter of time until Nedrose and/or South Prairie become basketball powerhouses due to the same factors.

There is also an imbalance created by open enrollment. Northern Cass sends buses each day outside of its own district boundaries which in turn picks off a few kids from neighboring school districts to pad the enrollment. It's not just the private schools that operate without borders.


People in Region 5 and Region 7 may tend to disagree with you on that statement. I agree with you that your big class B schools are causing the majority of the imbalance in the system in the other parts of the state. The sad fact of the matter is there won't be a change to three classes, NDHSAA is completely against it and a lot of schools now won't vote for any plan that doesn't help them individually. You will see a lot more co-ops just to be competitive.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:39 pm

The Schwab wrote:
B Historian wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Sniper wrote:
Flip wrote:
Sniper wrote:If Shiloh would rather travel farther to play better teams (usually other privates or bigger class B schools) that would still prove my point. They are traveling farther because they want their games to be against better more competitive opponents. Very similar to teams traveling farther to play against less talented teams where the game is more competitive.

This is why I believe most of the private schools would opt up to the middle class in a 3 class system.


I think they probably would opt up but I would not want them to have the option to not opt up. Rather just have them play one class ahead of where their enrollment places them.


Pretty sure all of them would be in that middle class...but what do you do with the one outlier (Williston Trinity Christian)? They only have roughly 50 kids and their girls program is a coop...


Williston Trinity Christian is in a bad spot, but there is no plan that will make everyone happy. They are definitely getting the short end of the stick in this scenario but a ton of teams are getting that right now by having to compete with the privates in post season play.


Forcing all privates up a class in basketball is simply not going to happen in ND. A three class system done right would have four of the six current Class B programs already in the middle class while giving the two smaller schools (Our Redeemer's and Trinity Christian) the ability to opt up. If they chose not to there isn't going to be new rules put in place over two schools.

I don't get the complaining about private schools while everyone seems to ignore the fact that the big public Class B schools are what is causing the most imbalance in the current system.

The current top two schools in the Class B poll both have multiple players on their roster that are children of former Class B standouts. The parents were not raised in these communities but have chosen Class B school districts close to the large population centers for the small school experience. This situation is really prevalent in the eastern part of the state and is creating a real competitive imbalance. I think everyone realizes it probably just a matter of time until Nedrose and/or South Prairie become basketball powerhouses due to the same factors.

There is also an imbalance created by open enrollment. Northern Cass sends buses each day outside of its own district boundaries which in turn picks off a few kids from neighboring school districts to pad the enrollment. It's not just the private schools that operate without borders.


People in Region 5 and Region 7 may tend to disagree with you on that statement. I agree with you that your big class B schools are causing the majority of the imbalance in the system in the other parts of the state. The sad fact of the matter is there won't be a change to three classes, NDHSAA is completely against it and a lot of schools now won't vote for any plan that doesn't help them individually. You will see a lot more co-ops just to be competitive.


The reason Shiloh makes so many state appearances is that Region 5 is a weak region filled with smaller schools. Shiloh has an 11-22 record at the state tournament over the years with zero championship game appearances so it's not like this has been a dominant program.

Dickinson Trinity had a great run up through about 2007 but has only made four state appearances in the last 11 seasons, finishing 3rd, 4th and 5th twice. Hettinger is the only public school in over 50 years from the southwest corner of the state (defined as west of the river, south of I-94) to win a state championship. Outside of Beulah, the other schools currently in R8 that have the size to compete for state berths (Hazen, Heart River, Killdeer) can't seem to get it together in basketball.

Take Trinity and Beulah out of this region and there would be more appearances made by smaller schools obviously, but also more poor finishes at state, which is basically what happened when Bowman County, New England and Mott-Regent made it over the last several years.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby The Schwab » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:43 pm

Yes Dickinson Trinity has only made 4 appearances at state the past 11 years, but they've played in the championship game 6 of the other 7 years. It's Region 7, but I know what you mean with those schools.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:13 pm

Yes, that is correct about Shiloh in Region 5 but does that give more merit to a 3 class system then?
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Re: 3 class system

Postby B Historian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:47 pm

The Schwab wrote:Yes Dickinson Trinity has only made 4 appearances at state the past 11 years, but they've played in the championship game 6 of the other 7 years. It's Region 7, but I know what you mean with those schools.


Beulah has finished at least 3rd in the region for I believe 10 years running and has made the same number of state appearances as Trinity since returning to Class B, including a state title. Beulah is just as big of a problem for the rest of R7 as Trinity, yet everyone complains about all of the unfair advantages that private schools like Trinity have while ignoring the advantages of the big public schools like Beulah.

I really think that if the private schools like Trinity, Ryan, Oak Grove and Shiloh didn't exist and Class B was instead completely dominated by the big public schools, there would be limited complaints about the current system.
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Re: 3 class system

Postby classB4ever » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:51 pm

B Historian wrote:
I really think that if the private schools like Trinity, Ryan, Oak Grove and Shiloh didn't exist and Class B was instead completely dominated by the big public schools, there would be limited complaints about the current system.


Not in my opinion.

ndlionsfan wrote:Yes, that is correct about Shiloh in Region 5 but does that give more merit to a 3 class system then?


Yes.
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